Author Topic: UK's healthcare top of league table out of 11 western countries. US = last  (Read 5049 times)

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Offline odeon

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Though have never heard of anyone's insurance outright denying to pay anything for treatment advised by a physician.
Was just thinking. Maybe you had read something about some insurance companies who wouldn't pay for pre-existing conditions. Always thought that was a ploy to get people to take their insurance option immediately upon getting a new job. When joining the place I work, pre-existing was fine as long as I signed up right away, but not if I waited and took the insurance later. Though pre-existing condition clauses aren't allowed anymore. That's one thing people in other countries don't seem to understand about health insurance. It was easy to look at the statistics of the percentage of uninsured and say, oh my goodness, but what people don't understand is that a large majority of the uninsured were people who could in fact afford health insurance, but they opted not to have it. The reason many people opted not to pay is because they're generally healthy and only need to see a doctor once or twice a year for physicals and regular bloodwork, which is cheaper than annual premiums. Then they'd want to change their minds and get insurance once they got sick or in an accident. Health insurance used to be a lifestyle choice in the US. It isn't anymore.

I've read about those in the past, sure, but it's not what I meant.

I'll have to talk to my buddy at Eli Lilly's again. He's going to visit in a few weeks' time so maybe I'll pick up the thread then.

He's also in a unique position to compare the two systems, btw, as he's lived in both countries.
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Offline Jack

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Pharmsuticals are their own entity, as privatized and profit oriented as health insurance companies, even within the confines of government health plans pharma is separate. That deserves its own discussion.

Offline odeon

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http://www.creakyjoints.org/blogs/insurance-matters/truth-about-long-term-disability[/url]
That's a rant about a few different things, insurance claims, long-term disability claims (which have nothing to do with insurance in the US), the uninsured, all different issues being blamed on the insurance company. Not saying it's wrong, but maybe not specific enough to be fitting to the discussion so will let it go.

So how about this story?

And this one gives a few hints, but the patient seems to blame Obamacare.

Maybe I'll dig up more later. These are not very conclusive.
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Offline Jack

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Neither of those links is working for me.

Offline Jack

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http://www.creakyjoints.org/blogs/insurance-matters/truth-about-long-term-disability[/url]
That's a rant about a few different things, insurance claims, long-term disability claims (which have nothing to do with insurance in the US), the uninsured, all different issues being blamed on the insurance company. Not saying it's wrong, but maybe not specific enough to be fitting to the discussion so will let it go.

So how about this story?

And this one gives a few hints, but the patient seems to blame Obamacare.

Maybe I'll dig up more later. These are not very conclusive.

Not really trying to say the US health insurance system isn't in any way ever problematic, but thinking outright claim denial isn't really frequent or common because you say it is. Insurance companies are what they are and there's been some improvement with the current administration, but US the government simply isn't equipped to take over that industry, and that's not what they should be claiming or attempting to do. It would take decades to man and organize something like that; maybe it's coming eventually, but the public can't expect it to happen in a snap because some man with a microphone says he can do it. People are mad about Obamacare because he made some really big promises that weren't delivered. Personally can't wait until his term is over; tired of hearing people complain about him. Also not denying the main issues with health care in the US is largely a financial one. The real problem with health insurance in the US was obvious, the lower middle class. Those people didn't meet the income requirements for government programs and genuinely either couldn't afford insurance or worked in low-paying jobs that either offered no insurance, or offered crappy policies that didn't cover much expense above the premiums paid in. The government fixed that issue for children during the Clinton administration, by opening the umbrella of government health care by offering the lower middle class health coverage for children at a very low cost. Requiring everyone to have health insurance in the US will certainly help with the issue of the general cost of health care because the medical industry is more likely to be paid for their services now, but the financial problem of the general public hasn't been addressed. Obama promised the lower middle class an affordable government health plan and he failed. Can't see why it couldn't be done under the same principals of child health.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 04:29:06 AM by Jack »

Offline Jack

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Most likely not, considering that we're talking about different countries.  :tard:
Out of pocket expense is out of pocket for the patient no matter where they live.

Only, the "government" does not refuse treatment here. It's not how it works at all. There are cases where experimental treatments have been denied, sure, but it would seem that you're equating between insurance companies and governments to compare the different healthcare systems and that just doesn't work.
Missed this post. Then I don't understand why someone in the UK would be saving money for laser eye surgery. That's not experimental.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 04:29:37 AM by Jack »

Offline Jack

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Neither of those links is working for me.
Got the first link to work. That's really more of a testimonial to the financial issues. It makes no sense that a pharmaceutical  would cost 200,000 per bottle, or that someone with that level of illness wouldn't qualify for government disability health coverage. Even if that woman had no insurance, didn't have 150,000 to pay out of pocket, didn't have the credit to charge 90,000, she wouldn't have been left to die without treatment for her cancer. That's why things still work in the US. It's illegal to deny health care to someone who needs it so the medical industry just charges more to the people who can pay to make up for the people who can't or simply don't. The new insurance laws will fix some of that, though probably not the pharmaceutical aspect because that's a whole different monster.

Offline Jack

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it would seem that you're equating between insurance companies and governments to compare the different healthcare systems and that just doesn't work.
Not really equating as much as comparing. Of course the systems are different but the end result is sort of similar in my mind. The people who can afford to pay for their health care are charged more than what it really should cost them, in order to compensate for the people who can't pay. That seems fair and even comparable to a tax based system where those who can afford to pay are supporting those who can't. The only thing that's been truly unfair about how the system works in the US, is that there's people who actually can afford to pay for their health care but they don't because their financial priorities are out of whack and they live in debt above their own means. Times are changing it would seem. Personally am wondering how quickly the general cost of care will be impacted by the new insurance requirement laws.

Offline Jack

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Neither of those links is working for me.
Got the first link to work. That's really more of a testimonial to the financial issues. It makes no sense that a pharmaceutical  would cost 200,000 per bottle, or that someone with that level of illness wouldn't qualify for government disability health coverage. Even if that woman had no insurance, didn't have 150,000 to pay out of pocket, didn't have the credit to charge 90,000, she wouldn't have been left to die without treatment for her cancer. That's why things still work in the US. It's illegal to deny health care to someone who needs it so the medical industry just charges more to the people who can pay to make up for the people who can't or simply don't. The new insurance laws will fix some of that, though probably not the pharmaceutical aspect because that's a whole different monster.

Don't really want to discuss pharmaceuticals as part of this discussion anymore. Could also probably find you links for testimonials of people on Medicaid who are paying for their own uncovered prescriptions which they can't really afford and that's crap. The government should remove the thorn from their own eye and start setting limitations on big pharma corporations before trying to convince the public they can do things any better than the insurance companies.

Offline Jack

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Only, the "government" does not refuse treatment here.
This is still bugging me. No one is refused treatment here either. This reminds me of butterflies making the claim that ambulances speed away from sick and injured people in the US who don't have health insurance, because evidentially someone very intelligent and learned told her it's true. Thinking this is possibly a common misconception.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 01:28:46 PM by Jack »

Offline Jack

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And yet, despite this the current Con-Dem government wants to get rid of the NHS and replace it with a privatized system.

Well done.  :clap:

It's surprising, I have to admit. The NHS is far from perfect but I find it hard to believe that it doesn't beat a privatised alternative.

Was thinking about this post today. The best way to leave this conversation, might be with logical hesitation. It's sensible to look at a system which not only works but also provides adequate standards, and determine that addressing the problems within a given system makes more sense than scrapping the entire system in exchange for another one. It's easy for the US to look to other places, and see small wealthy countries that can't make it work without the bureaucratic nightmare of people waiting too long for services, and that applied to the scale of 300 million people is disturbing. It's equally easy for those countries to look to the US as an example of the economic problems that come along with a large section of health care finances belonging to the public domain. You're probably right, the NHS though imperfect probably beats a privatized alternative, because that's how the system is designed to function, so it's more sensible and less disfunctional to address the problem areas than trying to start from scratch with something else. Believe the same is true for the US.

Offline Pyraxis

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No one is refused treatment here either.

Yes, they are. Maybe I'm not understanding you right, but in the case of more complicated treatments like cancer, certain options (like transplants or surgery) and certain medications are not available to people with crappy or no insurance. This is true even if those treatments are the only reasonable option to save the person's life. The doctor will call the insurance company, the insurance company will say they don't cover it, and the person will either be faced with a bill that would cause financial ruin or they simply will not get the treatment. While people who show up at an ER will not be turned away at the door, they may be sent home after a cursory checkup.
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Offline Jack

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That leads me back to the statement of not understanding how people with that level of illness aren't considered disabled. Can't help but see the pharmaceutical issue of cancer treatments as being a problem caused by that industry and not the insurance industry and the government is even more stingy when it comes to medications. Agree no one should be presented with financially crippling bills for hundreds of thousands of dollars for medications for one patient, not the patient and not the insurance company, and if the government were the ones presented with that bill then they might do something about the absurdity of big pharma. Pharmaceuticals are a separate problem and the government also denies coverage for medications for people on government health plans. It's my understanding that people needing transplants are generally on a waiting list; don't really understand how that works, or if people's placement on the list is determined by finances, but if you say it's true then will accept that as true. It's also bothersome that people look at it that way, financial ruin or otherwise refusing themselves treatment. Have known people with overwhelming medical bills, and they filed medical bankruptcy without having to forfeit any personal assets. From my understanding that's not uncommon practice to get medical bills off people's back, and part of the reason for the high general cost of care. Also lost a family member to cancer a couple of years ago and their medications were obtained by the doctors directly from the pharma company at no cost. Don't know how that was done, but do know it's done. People choosing to die because of money is absurd, and if physicians are allowing people to die, or if hospitals are refusing needed surgeries over finances then they should be held legally accountable for that. Don't claim to know how to correct the financial issue within US health care, but pharma is a bad place to start with an argument that the government can do a better job of it, because they don't.

Offline Jack

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You made me look up the guidelines of how transplant waiting lists are prioritized. It would appear children are the only ones ever afforded any special consideration.

Quote
Specifics of waiting list rules, which can be seen at OPTN website, vary by organ. General principles, such as a patient's medical urgency, blood, tissue and size match with the donor, time on the waiting list and proximity to the donor, guide the distribution of organs. Under certain circumstance, special allowances are made for children. For example, children under age 11 who need kidneys are automatically assigned additional points. Factors such as a patient's income, celebrity status, and race or ethnic background play no role in determining allocation of organs.

http://www.organtransplants.org/understanding/unos/
http://optn.transplant.hrsa.gov/


Have never heard of anyone being denied any necessary surgery based on payment, so that leaves the issue of pharma. People have a hard time separating pharmaceutical care from medical care, refusing to see it as the separate entity is it, but not me. The people denying people medication based on finances isn't the government, it isn't the insurance companies, and it isn't the physicians prescribing it. It's the pharmaceutical corporations that are doing it, and they're the big nasty elephant in the health care room neither the government nor the general public want to see. It's not as if insurance companies can't also be bankrupt by pharma costs, but the insurance companies refusal to pay isn't denying the medication. It's obvious who is denying medication.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 02:58:18 PM by Jack »

Offline Jack

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Now wondering what pharma corporations are actually charging the government for chemo meds.