Social Niceties et al - WAS: Odeon, provide proof please.

[Callaway]

 

 

If you thought that you were about to fail physics in two days, would you be debating the fact that you don't want to be polite and think that everyone should be striving to change the "system" so we don't need to get along with other people or would you be studying your ass off?

[ozymandias]

 

 

If you thought that you were about to fail physics in two days, would you be debating the fact that you don't want to be polite and think that everyone should be striving to change the "system" so we don't need to get along with other people or would you be studying your ass off?

I wasn't  at Hadron!

[Christopher McCandless]

I don't think he wants moderation, and I'v known GA from several forums, just clarity for his own mind.  Then again, I'v been wrong before!   

Come on, what else do you call someone trying to get us all to mind our P's and Q's. Or was that Arses and Cunts...

Someone with a differing opinion?

His opinion is a reasonable one, and does not equal moderation. He simply wants me to be more polite, but doesn't want to enforce it, which is what moderation really is about.

To me it does, albeit an attempt at persuading us to carry out self-moderation. We do way too much of that irl already...

Politeness is just another nasty hand me down from NT society, as far as I am concerned. Just my take on it.

Your entitled to that opinion and your entitled to think I am wrong.  But, IRL, politeness is not censorship or grovelling or sycophancy, it's common sense.  So unless your contemplating a career and lifestyle far removed from all contact with other human beings, politeness or diplomacy is a necessary survival skill.  Thats my opinion.

As for self moderation, it's how I behave, at least half the time anyway, and believe.  It's not imposed on me except by me on myself.  GA is free to accept or reject my opinion, as you, Lucifer, odeon, calandale, etc, are free to do as well.  It's not going to change how I operate or conduct myself here or in real life.   And thats my take on it!   

Common sense is defined by the society we are in, and as you rightly point out we have to play the game for now. It doesnt mean we should like the game or system, and really we should all be striving to change it. Obviously I play the game myself, but I almost despise myself for playing it. What scares me is in trying hard to conform, one can lose their identity and sense of who they are.

As for imposition, it is imposed on you in the sense you are free to choose not to play along, but the consequences for not playing are pretty disasterous. Not what I would call a free choice myself.

I never said I liked it, but, then again, I have a great deal of latitude in my present life to do or not do.  BUT, one can conform in a borderline way, yet, not sacrifice ones identity and I certainly haven't lost the sense of who I am.  Nor is my daughter losing the sense of who she is.     My own sense of self is NOT in seeing the world in black and white with minimal grey, but, I see the world in huge swaths of grey with minimal black and white on the extreme borders.  One can play the game/along without losing ones identity, the trick is in learning the limitations within which each of us works well.  I relish the challenge of balancing conformity with my own individuality and refusal to knuckle under to the game.  And let me tell you, very few games are more full of BS conformity then the medical field.  Of course academia is the only field I consider on a par with that concept.  My dearest friend is a retired prof. and some of the stories he told me would curl anyones hair.  I'm sure Lucifer could vouch for that!

The bottom line is, if I wanted to live a totally individual and free life, I could head out to some remote area of the Maine woods and hide and build a life for myself totally alone and self sufficient.  BUT, I like my wine, a decent tenderloin, fresh produce and those things I couldn't manufacture for myself, in short I can't live without contact with other people.  However brief and exasperating.  It's not necessarily an "NT" imposition, it's a "human" imposition, as in the cost we have to pay for being human.  So unless you want to and can do, a move out to Australia's "Dead Heart".  Find an oasis and live there cut off from all contact with the rest of society,  your going to have to find that "balance" point as well.  It's never about surrendering your individuality, it's about, keeping your individuality, and yet being able to  , in a fashion that both satisfies and helps keep your sanity.  I'm still working on that!   

My fear I guess is that I am losing my way a little. I fought way too hard to build up a facade of being able to play the social game, and now I am there I am not totally sure whether I did the right thing. Perhaps it was a false hope of mine, or I just lost balence.

Now I am not advocating going out in the wilderness at all, nor not dealing with people, as you said there are lots of benefits with participating with society. What should change is the social system, as in the interface itself which social interaction and how we can access the structure. What I find so sad is we have some brilliant minds out there, but so many are blocked from reaching their potential and contributing something more. What has been clear to me is something out there is fundementally wrong, and society needs to move forward and step towards changing this.

[Christopher McCandless]

 

 

If you thought that you were about to fail physics in two days, would you be debating the fact that you don't want to be polite and think that everyone should be striving to change the "system" so we don't need to get along with other people or would you be studying your ass off?

Both

Its not like I havent done a 12 hour day, as well as sitting an exam...

[DirtDawg]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Is it easy? I don'think I would say that because it stumps many people.

I think of it as navigable, whereas lack of structure is like rough seas at night, when luck becomes an important factor of your survival.

[Callaway]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Is it easy? I don'think I would say that because it stumps many people.

I think of it as navigable, whereas lack of structure is like rough seas at night, when luck becomes an important factor of your survival.

Maybe easier is a better word to call it.  At least there are books on etiquette that one can read as a guideline to practice more formal manners.

[GalileoAce]

Wow, I've started a little discussion

I don't look at a lot on this site, so often I don't see it when others call others' names. Out of sight out of mind as they say :/

And sure, Site Dudes et al have just as much right as members do (probably more if you think about it) to get angry, frustrated and so forth; but there are many ways to express one's anger.

And no, I'm not looking for moderation, forcing people to be polite teaches nothing, and people learn nothing. There's nothing to be gained from moderation in situations such as these (other situations aren't being discussed here)...

I abhor bullying. I've been a victim of it many times, and I've perpetrated it a few (felt guilty immediately afterward too ), I think it's a scourge and testament to people who don't think. People who leap before they look. In real life I excuse much rudeness and some name calling, because speech is so fast, before you know it you've said something wrong and you can't take it back. But this is a forum, we can self-censor ourselves; proof-read, edit, delete our own posts. It doesn't take much effort to take those steps.

[GalileoAce]

I should clarify, that I'm not setting out to attack or vilify Odeon. I think he's a hero for stepping up to take the reins of the site after Dunc stood down. I'm just voicing my opinion in accordance to the site's philosophy

[Christopher McCandless]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Is it easy? I don'think I would say that because it stumps many people.

I think of it as navigable, whereas lack of structure is like rough seas at night, when luck becomes an important factor of your survival.

Maybe easier is a better word to call it.  At least there are books on etiquette that one can read as a guideline to practice more formal manners.

If there were no ettiquite, no normal way of being/ behaving then I doubt any of us would have much of a problem with social interaction.

[odeon]

I don't think he wants moderation, and I'v known GA from several forums, just clarity for his own mind.  Then again, I'v been wrong before!   

Come on, what else do you call someone trying to get us all to mind our P's and Q's. Or was that Arses and Cunts...

Someone with a differing opinion?

His opinion is a reasonable one, and does not equal moderation. He simply wants me to be more polite, but doesn't want to enforce it, which is what moderation really is about.

To me it does, albeit an attempt at persuading us to carry out self-moderation. We do way too much of that irl already...

Politeness is just another nasty hand me down from NT society, as far as I am concerned. Just my take on it.

Your entitled to that opinion and your entitled to think I am wrong.  But, IRL, politeness is not censorship or grovelling or sycophancy, it's common sense.  So unless your contemplating a career and lifestyle far removed from all contact with other human beings, politeness or diplomacy is a necessary survival skill.  Thats my opinion.

As for self moderation, it's how I behave, at least half the time anyway, and believe.  It's not imposed on me except by me on myself.  GA is free to accept or reject my opinion, as you, Lucifer, odeon, calandale, etc, are free to do as well.  It's not going to change how I operate or conduct myself here or in real life.   And thats my take on it!   

Common sense is defined by the society we are in, and as you rightly point out we have to play the game for now. It doesnt mean we should like the game or system, and really we should all be striving to change it. Obviously I play the game myself, but I almost despise myself for playing it. What scares me is in trying hard to conform, one can lose their identity and sense of who they are.

As for imposition, it is imposed on you in the sense you are free to choose not to play along, but the consequences for not playing are pretty disasterous. Not what I would call a free choice myself.

Well, that's because if you behave like an arse, people react. You can still do it if you want, just as people are free to react.

[Callaway]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Is it easy? I don'think I would say that because it stumps many people.

I think of it as navigable, whereas lack of structure is like rough seas at night, when luck becomes an important factor of your survival.

Maybe easier is a better word to call it.  At least there are books on etiquette that one can read as a guideline to practice more formal manners.

If there were no ettiquite, no normal way of being/ behaving then I doubt any of us would have much of a problem with social interaction.

I think I see what you are saying, but I believe that we would have a lot of problems if there were no guidelines at all, because I (for example) don't seem to have those same social instincts that some other people seem to have.  Even if we were all cave people with caveman manners, there would still be unwritten rules that governed our behavior in the caves.  Even cave people would react to a breach of the unwritten rules.  I prefer the rules of social behavior to be written, so I have a chance of getting them.

By the way, don't underestimate the good effects of a massive physics study session.  I did one during my first physics course and it was extremely helpful to me.  I don't know what kind of learner you are, but I made notes on large paper as if I were trying to make a huge "cheat sheet," although of course I just used it as a study aid and not during exams.

[Lucifer]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Is it easy? I don'think I would say that because it stumps many people.

I think of it as navigable, whereas lack of structure is like rough seas at night, when luck becomes an important factor of your survival.

that's a far more poetic (and comprehensive) way of putting it, dawg.   

i think the place where a lot of aspies go wrong is in trying to work out why one says a certain thing according to the rules.  my take on it is whatever bizarre reason there is for the phrase/action/whatever, it's necessary in order to keep things running smoothly, for ME, so that's MY reason for doing it.

does that make more sense?

and yep, yep, yep to what callaway said above, both posts.

[Christopher McCandless]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Is it easy? I don'think I would say that because it stumps many people.

I think of it as navigable, whereas lack of structure is like rough seas at night, when luck becomes an important factor of your survival.

Maybe easier is a better word to call it.  At least there are books on etiquette that one can read as a guideline to practice more formal manners.

If there were no ettiquite, no normal way of being/ behaving then I doubt any of us would have much of a problem with social interaction.

I think I see what you are saying, but I believe that we would have a lot of problems if there were no guidelines at all, because I (for example) don't seem to have those same social instincts that some other people seem to have.  Even if we were all cave people with caveman manners, there would still be unwritten rules that governed our behavior in the caves.  Even cave people would react to a breach of the unwritten rules.  I prefer the rules of social behavior to be written, so I have a chance of getting them.

I did think about that one, but if you look back over the years a lot of those caveman instincts have been supressed, so I doubt our disadvantage would be as much as you might think. Plus we probably could learn a decent amount of psychology to get around it.

Though I know that if I meet an aspie I can more or less read them, so tbh I am not 100% sure what would happen there entirely.

By the way, don't underestimate the good effects of a massive physics study session.  I did one during my first physics course and it was extremely helpful to me.  I don't know what kind of learner you are, but I made notes on large paper as if I were trying to make a huge "cheat sheet," although of course I just used it as a study aid and not during exams.

I got up at 8 and have done that pretty much all day. My room now has little bundles of A4 paper everywhere

[Lucifer]

how's it going, hadron - do you feel more confident?

[Christopher McCandless]

how's it going, hadron - do you feel more confident?

A bit more confident, but not much. I might pass tommorrows paper, so it could be one less to sit in the summer. (if my mit circ form fails)