Women/family debate (split from ask McJ anything)

[Triste]

And can you explain why Hibakusha is now a guest?

[McGiver]

personal responsibility- becaiuse there is not enough of it.  to many people shirking their resaponsibilities, and too many people casting blame.
but i do agree that we have been taught well by our parents (generation) and i am trying to promote awareness, that wghat we have learned is not necessarilly the right way.

you never know.

[Pyraxis]

the bonding that takes place in the suckling of the nipples.  (not meant to be universal, since, not all women can produce healthy cholestrum and mothers milk, and because of formula.
human contact is psychological necessary for a bulk of the population.

True, and there are studies that show that babies who are totally neglected emotionally but have all their physical needs taken care of will die. But I think you're putting too much importance on suckling. There are plenty of mothers, like you said, who can't do it, and their children don't grow up universally scarred for life. So it's not necessary for women to have to take 3-4 years off work. A few months, sure. But the system can handle that. There are temp workers. There are fields (some male-dominated) where it is standard practice to take months off at a time. College professors take sabbaticals. People in film and gaming often have months-long gaps between projects. People of all types take medical leave for various injuries and conditions. And the industry doesn't collapse around them.

[McGiver]

the bonding that takes place in the suckling of the nipples.  (not meant to be universal, since, not all women can produce healthy cholestrum and mothers milk, and because of formula.
human contact is psychological necessary for a bulk of the population.

True, and there are studies that show that babies who are totally neglected emotionally but have all their physical needs taken care of will die. But I think you're putting too much importance on suckling. There are plenty of mothers, like you said, who can't do it, and their children don't grow up universally scarred for life. So it's not necessary for women to have to take 3-4 years off work. A few months, sure. But the system can handle that. There are temp workers. There are fields (some male-dominated) where it is standard practice to take months off at a time. College professors take sabbaticals. People in film and gaming often have months-long gaps between projects. People of all types take medical leave for various injuries and conditions. And the industry doesn't collapse around them.

all the examples you stated are seasonal type jobs.  gaming i assume you meant pro athletes, college isn't year round and sbbatacles are often to study in their respective field of expertise or to write books.  film and TV is seasonal as well.

i am not saying that women do not belong in the workplace, i am saying that its more necessary to take time off than it is for men.
there is the family leave act which makes it possible.  and i know there is temp work (too much of it).  the trend toward temp work is another tool by big businees to skirt benefit and pention plans.
for a woman who wants to work, there should be an equal place for them.  for women who want to raise families, the men should respect their contribultions and own up to their responsibilities of being a family man, both financially and emotionally.

we could sit here and provide all sorts of exceptions to any subject.  but the bottom line is look around you and decide for yourself:
is the current trend a positive one or a negative one.  is it a step in the right direction, or a step backwards for families everywhere.

consider my plan of putting the babies in gerentology care and in front of TV sets for the next 25 years.  stop all SS and apply that monies towards improving the family environment.  TV raised us, it can see them off.  the greedy selfish bastards.

[Triste]

we could sit here and provide all sorts of exceptions to any subject.  but the bottom line is look around you and decide for yourself:
is the current trend a positive one or a negative one.  is it a step in the right direction, or a step backwards for families everywhere.

The current trend.  Hmm, not sure what you mean by that specifically, but you can't blame it all on the demise of the 50's style American home.  It was really only a short period of our country's history where the guy worked and the mom stayed home.  And by the next decade, the 60's, the moms were so bored that Mick Jagger sang a song about those little blue pills "Mother's little helplers".  Yeah our society is fucked up, and there are many reasons for it.  One is the tendency for Americans to be so conservative that they cannot tolerate change of any kind.  Twelve fucking years of Bushes in office, that's one example of resistance to change as well as a cause AND effect of the downward trend of our country.

[Beowulf]

i didn't call you a hypocrite at all - i merely suggested you take a wider view of things, as your argument is the classic argument used by people who are missing who's really responsible for various ills in the world.  if it ain't women stealing the jobs, it's blacks, or gays, or immigrants, or giving jobs to disabled people who can't actually do it...

now do you see what i mean?

So who are these people you speak of who are really responsible for various ills in the world?

[duncvis]

The cunts with the power...

[Beowulf]

I agree with Mcjagger. I think there has been a lot of damage done to society by this idea that there's something liberating about a mother going out and becoming a wageslave when she could be at home looking after her children.

I am assuming that by the "cunts with the power" Duncvis means corporate fat-cats. I am also assuming this is who Lucifer was talking about.
I raised the question above because I'd like to try to understand this point of view. Certain posts in this thread remind me of posts from another thread: one person raises concerns about what they see as a damaging trend in society, and someone else only sees "divide and conquer" tactics. I'd like to know what exactly people mean by this.

As far as I can see, mcjagger's main gripe was not so much with women taking men's jobs, but with the idea that there's something "demeaning" about a woman spending time with her children.

If more women entering the workplace drives down wages, then that is an unfortunate consequence of Women's Liberation. But why blame corporate fat-cats? Sure, the free market doesn't care what damage it does to culture and social cohesion. That's why it's important (I believe) to maintain certain traditions that have held society together for centuries. Governments should also help safeguard society against some of the possible unpleasant consequences of the free market. There are better ways of doing this than income levelling.
The free market might not be perfect, but it's a lot better than communism. 

[Calandale]

what are your childrens grandfathers like, do you think they will be such strong influences in their lives?

Im kinda gutted that by the time i have kids, my grandfather and grandmother will probably be gone. Because probably like your grandfather, they are the kind of people that kids should get the opportunity to grow up knowing.

Where are you?
What happened?

You didn't get hounded off of here, did you? 

[Callaway]

Ask Peaguy.

[Calandale]

Ask Peaguy.

Oh, I know HIS side. I'm much more curious about the
untold sides of all these stories.


But, his harrying of you must be hurting, since
you're jabbing at his personal life.

[Alex179]

Ask Peaguy.

Oh, I know HIS side. I'm much more curious about the
untold sides of all these stories.


But, his harrying of you must be hurting, since
you're jabbing at his personal life.

His words carry more weight than yours, as plentiful as your posts are.... it is like inflation by making too much currency.    You are repeating yourself too much.   That is one reason why his jabs seem to get more of a rise out of her personally.

[Callaway]

Ask Peaguy.

Oh, I know HIS side. I'm much more curious about the
untold sides of all these stories.


But, his harrying of you must be hurting, since
you're jabbing at his personal life.

His words carry more weight than yours, as plentiful as your posts are.... it is like inflation by making too much currency.    You are repeating yourself too much.   That is one reason why his jabs seem to get more of a rise out of her personally.

When other people laughed at his nudes, he laughed right along with them, but when I laughed (mostly because of his silly expressions and the direct comparison between Peter's picture and Peaguy's) he said that I was trying to make him feel bad about himself.

I like Peaguy, but it would be better not to post a naked picture of yourself on Intensity if you are going to have your feelings hurt by negative feedback. 

He should know this better than anyone, since he is usually the one poking fun at other people's pictures.

[Alex179]

The fact that he did what he did and made that comparison should tell you that he wasn't really going to be bothered that much by your comments.   It was not to be taken seriously.   I didn't see him get that bent out of shape over you laughing at what I thought was a joke to begin with.   Your statement came across with intent, that is why he saw your comment as you actually trying to get to him.   That and he has taken shots at you, so he was probably weary for you to take a shot or two back.

[Callaway]

The fact that he did what he did and made that comparison should tell you that he wasn't really going to be bothered that much by your comments.   It was not to be taken seriously.   I didn't see him get that bent out of shape over you laughing at what I thought was a joke to begin with.   Your statement came across with intent, that is why he saw your comment as you actually trying to get to him.   That and he has taken shots at you, so he was probably weary for you to take a shot or two back.

That's a really good point.  I did not think of it in that way before.