Wrong Planet.

[IlluSionS667]

I'd consider medical experiments on prisoners torture http://www.everything2.net/e2node/Nazi%2520medical%2520experiments

What evidence exists for :
* ) some or all of these experiments being very painful or lethal?
* ) some or all of these experiments being forced onto the subject?

Your source doesn't contain any source references, which forces me to take these statements at face value. I've read somewhere that medical experiments did take place at concentration camps but that they were non-lethal and voluntary (with people receiving special benefits if they submitted to experiments). It is not my area of expertise, though.

Do you have any sources on more explicit forms of torture in the camps? Do you have any sources on torture used by eg. the Gestapo or the SS in civil society? Those would be more interesting....

[Al Swearegen]

I do. A bunch of dead POW's are, by complete coincidence, next to me now insisting that it is fact.

 

[Parts]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/01/AR2005120101637.html

[Teejay]

Some of you people still posting on there, I have not posted in ages and not visited it almost as long.

[IlluSionS667]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/01/AR2005120101637.html

I find this particular line very interesting :

According to Mr. Seel's book, German shepherd dogs were unleashed on his friend, tearing him apart and devouring him before hundreds of witnesses.

Such actions could cost an SS man his life. Nevertheless, capos (inmates responsible for the daily running of the camp) didn't fall under the same policy and were well-known for their brutality. Assuming this individual is telling the truth, it would be more likely that a capo is responsible than an SS officer. Usually the Germans are blamed for the behavior of the capos, but it is more likely that their behavior can be explained by the psychological phenomena discovered during the Stanford Prison Experiment. Himmler assumed that inmate wellfare would be better if other inmates took care of the daily running of the camp, but the oposite turned out to be true. The Stanford Prison Experiment has illustrated that if you give random imates authority over other inmates in a prison situation it is only a matter of time before things get out of hand and those with authority use extreme brutallity. This is especially true in harsh conditions. I don't think a single Holocaust revisionist denies that things got out of hand in some of the concentration camps and that some capos used extreme violence... with SS men either not aware of it or looking another way. Surely there were also cases where SS men went out of line, but when discovered by SS autorities these men were sentenced with severe punishments. Abuse of inmates by SS men was definitely not condoned or supported by SS authorities.

Anyway, I'd like to see some evidence of torture in civil society or some evidence of explicit torture by SS men in concentration camps... and preferrably hard evidence (eyewitnesses can be unreliable). Especially the first (evidence of torture in civil society) is interesting because because it can tell us something about how normal torture was in the Third Reich.

[Al Swearegen]

Of course easily done. I am powering up the time machine now....Oh wait small problem of you being in Belgium and me in Australia....Lucky I have a teleporter on hand.

[IlluSionS667]

Of course easily done. I am powering up the time machine now....Oh wait small problem of you being in Belgium and me in Australia....Lucky I have a teleporter on hand.

Everyone keeps telling me the evidence for the alleged monstrosity of the Third Reich is so obvious, but when I ask for such evidence people tell me the only way to really know is by entering a time machine..... * hmmm *

[Al Swearegen]

Of course easily done. I am powering up the time machine now....Oh wait small problem of you being in Belgium and me in Australia....Lucky I have a teleporter on hand.

Everyone keeps telling me the evidence for the alleged monstrosity of the Third Reich is so obvious, but when I ask for such evidence people tell me the only way to really know is by entering a time machine..... * hmmm *

Oh....right I had not realised I had asked you for evidence.....
I am the one who has mentioned time machine but I had not realised I had asked for evidence.
Others may have but then again they are not suggesting the necessity for a time machine. Hmmmm......................FAIL!!! 

[Pyraxis]

some capos used extreme violence... with SS men either not aware of it or looking another way. Surely there were also cases where SS men went out of line, but when discovered by SS autorities these men were sentenced with severe punishments. Abuse of inmates by SS men was definitely not condoned or supported by SS authorities.

I haven't the slightest historical evidence either way, but this doesn't ring true. The phenomena seen during the Stanford Prison Experiment wouldn't apply just to inmates-turned-guards, they would also apply to the guards themselves. The Standford subjects who were assigned as guards weren't inmates first, so the tendency towards cruelty doesn't require that one first be an inmate.

If the SS guys were looking the other way when capos used extreme violence, what makes you think they wouldn't turn the other way when other SS guys used violence?

[IlluSionS667]

I haven't the slightest historical evidence either way, but this doesn't ring true. The phenomena seen during the Stanford Prison Experiment wouldn't apply just to inmates-turned-guards, they would also apply to the guards themselves.

True... However, the SS was the elite of Germany's army. They were extremely disciplined and obliged to the highest moral standards. Besides that, punishment for abuse was severe and there are known cases where SS-men were severely punished by German authorities for abuse. This makes abuse by SS men less obvious.

Nevertheless, it would be naieve to think that abuse by SS men never happened at all. In fact, the few known cases prove otherwise. I grant you that.

[The_Chosen_One]

Actually if it's facts you are looking for Illusion, I have one for you.

A fact is the area between the fuck hole and the muck hole, and if you break it you're in the shit.

THAT'S a fact.... 

[odeon]

He still about? What a total waste of server space.

[IlluSionS667]

He still about? What a total waste of server space.

Coming from a narrowminded liberal despot like yourself, I can only take that as a complement

[Parts]

So the numbers tattooed on my old neighbors arm when she was a child was just a kindly way of keeping track of her in case she got lost at the camp?  She was a Jehovah's Witness they were not liked much either 

[odeon]

Must have been. Illusion's research proves that she was not in a camp.