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Author Topic: Double-standards with suicide.  (Read 2016 times)

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Offline SovaNu

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2007, 11:13:40 AM »
i dunno what the jehova peeps believe but some religions believe that meddling with the body risks the soul or something, or that the soul won't get into heaven. laughable? yeah, maybe. but it's not our place to decide that for someone else.
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Offline Christopher McCandless

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2007, 11:16:28 AM »
i dunno what the jehova peeps believe but some religions believe that meddling with the body risks the soul or something, or that the soul won't get into heaven. laughable? yeah, maybe. but it's not our place to decide that for someone else.
My suspicion is if a lot of these people were not brought up in the religion would not be making such rankly stupid decisions with their lives. If a religion advocated suicide if your watch broke, wouldnt you attempt to stop someone offing themselves as part of the faith. I would say those doctors were guilty of inaction.

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2007, 11:26:21 AM »
i see your point. still... people are free to do stupid things.
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
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"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
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"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
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ozymandias

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2007, 11:26:57 AM »
When it comes to suicide, the UK contradict themselves on this subject. It's not alright for people to consider euthanasia when they are suffering in pain from being physically immobile. However, it's fine for a Jehovah's Witness to be refused blood treatment while he/she's in hospital out of respect for their religious beliefs.

It seems that we're pussyfooting around those to suit the religious cults with their delusions and ignorance of medical science instead of giving everyone an equal opportunity to take their life if they so wish.

What say you, people?


The Euthanasia one is for peoples protection, there is a good possibility that vulnerable people can be persuaded into signing the forms to off themselves. Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment (a right which I think should be at a doctors discretion, so they can overrule it in cases of rank stupidity). I do hate the way religion is allowed a say in anything at all though...

I have to agree with this, AS LONG as it is a voluntary and iinformed choice BY the individual who chooses to refuse medical treatment or chooses to commit suicide.  Where I draw the line is from my standpoint as a nurse/medical professional.  Allow me to split hairs here.  As a nurse and geriatric/hospice specialist, I am committed to ensuring that my patients enjoy the highest, most dignified quality of life that can be done at the end of that individuals life.  Ex.  If by giving that shot of morphine that a HOSPICE patient needs to control their pain........I am hastening the end of their life.......so be it...........it's their choice and I am honoring their choice.   BUT, in the case of euthanasia, I'm worried that I am not responding to the patients desires, but to a Doctor's or families "convenience", especially since a lot of the case that I have read about and studied have been of patients UNABLE to make their own decisions.

I also do not like religion to intrude into medical decisions.  Rather I support the individuals right to choose according to THEIR beliefs, not ANYBODY else's.  In the long run, I have my own personal beliefs about such things, but, overall is my belief in the freedom of individual choice, AS LONG as that individual has the clarity of mind or previously written/documented choice to make that known.  If things are done by hearsay or second guessing, than I as a medical professional can't follow those and have to go by my own personal ethics.

And if that sounds confusing, believe me, this is one grey, murky area that scares the bloody fucking shit outta me.
I agree with you here, especially with the double effect bit. Personally though, in a lot of cases I would keep a paitient alive against their own wishes, its not like they cant off themselves later. Out of intrest, what would you have done with the Jehovahs witness?


Jehovah's Witnesses have the right to their own beliefs.  The hospitals that I have worked in have a special consent and release form for them.  It's their choice.  As long as they understand the consequences of that choice.  As for keeping somebody alive against their will, thats murky too.  I myself have a living will stating no extraordinary measures should be taken if it means the quality of my life will mean being a vegetable for the rest of my life.  I have it in writing.  But, a Doctor can certainly override that wish, if they want to.
They do have such a right, just as you have a right to your own beliefs, and if they are out, then you could (and in my view should) have given the blood transfusion, just not told her about it. I really dont see why someone otherwise healthy should have been allowed to die for such a laughable reason. Asides, people in such religions are born into them.

Like I said it's murky and I agree with you, especially about the children and otherwise healthy people who could be saved by a simple transfusion.  Giving it and Not telling them about it, conflicts with my own ethics and seems like the beginnings of a slippery slope of justifying doing this or that, witholding this or that based upon my own beliefs/ethics.  Where would it end?

That murkiness and slippery slope possibility, scares me.  I don't think that I could work in a state that has a "Right to die' or "Physicians assisted euthanasia" law.  Thats just me!  I can handle someone who has a DNR (Do not resuscitate) paper that has been signed off by the patient AND the doctor and the patients family/guardian.  Of course I work with the elderly and dying anyway, so it's usually clearly defined as to the limits I have.  My personal beliefs include the sanctity of all life, but, I also support the individuals right to refuse treatment, get an abortion, or whatever.  

I know that sounds contradictory, but, that is something that I have worked out for myself and am at peace with.  I also allow myself some flexibility to be able to handle those situations that come up that somehow fall into those Grey Areas that pop up in dealing with people and beliefs.  To me life is NOT totally black and white, there is black and white on the sides, but, the middle is one big shade of grey.  And it's something that I and I alone have to navigate thru and live with the consequences.

I don't know if that makes any sense to others, but, it's the best I can do to explain myself.

Offline Calandale

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2007, 12:37:48 PM »
children of jehova's witnesses are a different story. if some guy wants to let himself die who are we to stop them? but if their children were to be ill... well, shouldn't the children get to decide? even if it is a decision made under pressure from the parents and doctors and religion... the parents shouldn't get to decide alone.

I think that this is fair. At least in the case
of against the perceived wisdom. But, very
young children have no ability to indicate their
choice. Plus, doctors might use tactics to
convince the child. All gets tricky.

Offline Calandale

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2007, 12:41:21 PM »
i dunno what the jehova peeps believe but some religions believe that meddling with the body risks the soul or something, or that the soul won't get into heaven. laughable? yeah, maybe. but it's not our place to decide that for someone else.
My suspicion is if a lot of these people were not brought up in the religion would not be making such rankly stupid decisions with their lives. If a religion advocated suicide if your watch broke, wouldnt you attempt to stop someone offing themselves as part of the faith. I would say those doctors were guilty of inaction.

Sure, but it's not just a matter of religion.
Think of the Romans or Japanese, neither
of whom had a real feeling that suicide would
make any afterlife better, yet still did so for matters
of honor, or to protect their families. There's a whole
culture. Our beliefs are all based upon our culture.
Religion is a part of that. Why do you presume that
yours is better than theirs? Oh, I know the answer,
but that has no real standing.

Offline Christopher McCandless

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2007, 12:50:34 PM »
i dunno what the jehova peeps believe but some religions believe that meddling with the body risks the soul or something, or that the soul won't get into heaven. laughable? yeah, maybe. but it's not our place to decide that for someone else.
My suspicion is if a lot of these people were not brought up in the religion would not be making such rankly stupid decisions with their lives. If a religion advocated suicide if your watch broke, wouldnt you attempt to stop someone offing themselves as part of the faith. I would say those doctors were guilty of inaction.

Sure, but it's not just a matter of religion.
Think of the Romans or Japanese, neither
of whom had a real feeling that suicide would
make any afterlife better, yet still did so for matters
of honor, or to protect their families. There's a whole
culture. Our beliefs are all based upon our culture.
Religion is a part of that. Why do you presume that
yours is better than theirs? Oh, I know the answer,
but that has no real standing.
It is my honorific belief that preventing someone from killing themself in such a way is the right thing to do. Which takes preceedence, my beliefs or theirs? By the beliefs/ cuture arguement, it seems like people are justifying doing something because an ideology says so.

Offline Calandale

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2007, 12:52:46 PM »
I'd argue theirs, because you are trying to inflict
your beliefs on their body. BUT, this too is a matter
of societal beliefs.

Offline Christopher McCandless

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2007, 12:54:37 PM »
I'd argue theirs, because you are trying to inflict
your beliefs on their body. BUT, this too is a matter
of societal beliefs.
Ah but me letting them die would have a psychologal effect on me, which would lead to a set somatic effects on me.

Offline Calandale

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2007, 01:00:31 PM »
So, you've put relativism where it
ends up, unable to come to any
decision. From hence, perfection
is but a step away.

Offline Christopher McCandless

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2007, 01:09:30 PM »
So, you've put relativism where it ends up, unable to come to any decision. From hence, perfection is but a step away.
Perfection from which perspective...

Offline Calandale

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2007, 01:10:39 PM »
So, you've put relativism where it ends up, unable to come to any decision. From hence, perfection is but a step away.
Perfection from which perspective...

Mine. The only right one. :laugh:

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2007, 01:18:16 PM »
it would do them harm to do the transfusion without their consent, it might make the patient psychotic after they found out you had done this to them and doomed them to hell or whatnot, stupid belief maybe, still valid in their mind, and mind is a fragile thing for some. they might go insane or try to commit suicide or kill someone.

also it's selfish to make someone live just so your conscience can rest. and that in itself is a paradox.
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
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Offline Eclair

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2007, 11:42:14 PM »
I think it should be like the way they do it in Soylent Green.  But without the being ground up into food part.


Sometimes you deliver lines so dean pan Cal.

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Offline Calandale

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Re: Double-standards in suicide.
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2007, 11:52:55 PM »
That's Ahayes though.  :laugh: