AspieLeft

[In The spaGhetto]

I guess you're talking about hezbollah conflict here.
true that tactic is pretty cowardly and despicable. i wouldn't condone it, nor suicide bombing.
but you can't excuse israel's actions based on that.

An "initial assessment" Amnesty International report on Israeli attacks on civilian infrastructure states that "the evidence strongly suggests that the extensive destruction of public works, power systems, civilian homes and industry was deliberate and an integral part of the military strategy, rather than "collateral damage" – incidental damage to civilians or civilian property resulting from targeting military objectives." UN Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator Jan Egeland called Israel's offensive "disproportionate" and declared that the "horrific" leveling of "block after block" of buildings in Beirut "makes it a violation of humanitarian law."Mr Egeland added that one third of the Lebanese dead were children.Around 900,000 Lebanese were displaced during the fighting.

Amnesty International published a report identifying evidence of the destruction of entire civilian neighbourhoods and villages by Israeli forces, attacks on bridges with no strategic value, and attacks on civilian infrastructure indispensable to the survival of the civilian population. It stated that "the widespread destruction of apartments, houses, electricity and water services, roads, bridges, factories and ports, in addition to several statements by Israeli officials, suggests a policy of punishing both the Lebanese government and the civilian population," and called for an international investigation of violations of international humanitarian law by both sides in the conflict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeting_of_civilian_areas_in_the_2006_Lebanon_War#Targeting_by_Israel

These are obviously just quotes from one source, but these kind of comdemnations of both sides seemed pretty widespread outside the US and Israel. why is that? if Israel is so morally superior shouldn't it try to rise above all the like for like recrimination and not sink to the same level of killing civilians?

[Litigious]

The majority of Israeli attacks that have killed civilians, were targeted at legitimate targets. The terrorists hide amongst the populace so their own people will get killed. Such bravery..... 

That fact alone makes it impossible for me to understand how anyone can sympathize with them.

[In The spaGhetto]

you can sympathise with lebanese or palestinian civilians who aren't terrorists though can't you?

[Litigious]

These are obviously just quotes from one source, but these kind of comdemnations of both sides seemed pretty widespread outside the US and Israel. why is that? if Israel is so morally superior shouldn't it try to rise above all the like for like recrimination and not sink to the same level of killing civilians?

How exactly should they do that? Should they sacrifice 10 or 20 Israeli lives to capture one single terrorist coward hiding among civilians? Because either way, they can't capture/kill them without violence of some kind.

[Litigious]

you can sympathise with lebanese or palestinian civilians who aren't terrorists though can't you?

I have a very hard time sympathizing with those people at all. If they're not terrorists themselves they often silently sympathize with or protect terrorists. But if they condemn terrorism in their hearts I can sympathize with them.

[In The spaGhetto]

how do you define terrorism though?
what if they see israelis deliberately bombing civilian targets as terrorism?

[Litigious]

how do you define terrorism though?
what if they see israelis deliberately bombing civilian targets as terrorism?

Terrorism is, in general, warfare against the laws of war. If you're not a part of a regular army and want to be treated in accordance with the laws of war, you must act openly and show that you are a legal combattant.

[In The spaGhetto]

so any war crime equals terrorism? this is easy then - if the allegations by these groups (not exactly fringe group pro arab lunatics) then israel is guilty of terrorism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict#Allegations_of_war_crimes

in fact Human Rights Watch has been criticised for being too soft on Israel.

and what do you make of stories like this?

"We want a new government, one that is not Hamas or Fatah," she says. "A government that can secure our kids going to school, not one that keeps silent while our people are killed in front of our face!"


"I think the Palestinian woman feel, now, more seriously and worry about what's going on in our society. Now most of the women are not in parties," Ayesh says. "These women now go out of their homes asking to be part of stopping this violence inside our society."
...

One of the Hamas women there was a recently widowed 72-year-old named Fatma al Najar. Over tea in her barren, unheated apartment in the Jabaliya refugee camp, Fatma's daughter Fathiya al Najar describes the family's reaction when her mother returned home that night.

"She came back from Beit Hanoun and we said, 'Thank God you are safe.' And she replied, 'Safe, safe from what? My people are being killed. I wish I had been killed there.'"

A few days later, Fatma al Najar, who had more than 40 children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren combined, became the oldest Palestinian suicide bomber. She approached an Israeli military checkpoint and blew herself up with an explosives belt around her waist. Israel lists her as another Palestinian terrorist. Her family and friends call her a martyr.

"Of course I feel very sad," Fathiya al Najar says. "No one's mother can be replaced. But I'm also very proud of what she did. There are cowards here who are looking for peace and those people are not doing anything to stop the Israelis and their massacres. My mother martyred herself as a kind of gift to all the Palestinian prisoners and as an answer for those cowards looking for peace."

When told that her mother killed only herself that day, that the bombing lightly wounded two Israeli soldiers who've since returned to duty, al Najar shakes her head and denies it. Then, after a pause she says, "Nevertheless, I bet she scared those soldiers like hell. To see an old lady sacrifice herself for her people."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6725651

[odeon]

I thought of joining the debate but spaghetto's doing just fine. He doesn't need my help.

It's interesting to observe, however, that whenever you're not pro-Israel, you are, in the minds of some, automatically pro-Palestine and you obviously if not openly support, then at least silently root for, suicide bombers and other media-friendly nutcases.

Now, popcorn's nice and all that but what I'd really like is a beer or three.

[In The spaGhetto]

cheers. can i have some of your popcorn then?

[odeon]

  Sure.

[ozymandias]

If a left winger is anti-bush, Fuck-Israel, screw Saudi Arabia and RobertN is an ignoramus,. then I'm left wing.  Oh yes, I'm pro-gun control, definitely left wing and cowardly.   

[McGiver]

If a left winger is anti-bush, Fuck-Israel, screw Saudi Arabia and RobertN is an ignoramus,. then I'm left wing.  Oh yes, I'm pro-gun control, definitely left wing and cowardly.   

that's it.  now it's personal.

[Scrapheap]

If a left winger is anti-bush, Fuck-Israel, screw Saudi Arabia and RobertN is an ignoramus,. then I'm left wing.  Oh yes, I'm pro-gun control, definitely left wing and cowardly.   

that's it.  now it's personal.

Yeah!! what's up with that ?? ??

[ozymandias]

Deal with it!