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Offline SovaNu

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2007, 12:34:41 PM »
it's important to take the lessons from what's happened and move on otherwise. we can always remember the people we've lost and the things losing them has taught us. clinging onto tragedy itself and wallowing in the pain is not healthy.
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Offline Callaway

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2007, 12:37:39 PM »
it's important to take the lessons from what's happened and move on otherwise. we can always remember the people we've lost and the things losing them has taught us. clinging onto tragedy itself and wallowing in the pain is not healthy.

It's not always as easy as it sounds, Milla.  Has anyone dear to you ever died?

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2007, 12:59:08 PM »
yes. i know it's not easy and when someone dies i am the sort of person who doesn't want to move on at all. but eventually one does. i do know everyone grieves how long they need to grieve, if that's one year or 10 years, i'm not gonna judge them.
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

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Offline Calandale

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2007, 05:12:26 PM »
it's important to take the lessons from what's happened and move on otherwise. we can always remember the people we've lost and the things losing them has taught us. clinging onto tragedy itself and wallowing in the pain is not healthy.

It's not always as easy as it sounds, Milla.  Has anyone dear to you ever died?

For me, yes. And I've mostly forgotten.
Now and then remembering them in
a better light than they ever really
deserved.

Offline Parts

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2007, 07:33:48 PM »
it's important to take the lessons from what's happened and move on otherwise. we can always remember the people we've lost and the things losing them has taught us. clinging onto tragedy itself and wallowing in the pain is not healthy.

It's not always as easy as it sounds, Milla.  Has anyone dear to you ever died?

For me, yes. And I've mostly forgotten.
Now and then remembering them in
a better light than they ever really
deserved.

Time seems to have a way of doing that
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
George Bernard Shaw

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2007, 07:47:12 AM »
September 11th = cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. :violin:

We've had the Battle of Hastings, the Great Fire of London, and numerous wars against our mainland neighbours, and yet we still get on with life.   ::)

Dallas is over. Enough with the soap opera already -- it's dead and buried.

(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 10:21:42 AM by IntensitySquared »

Offline Parts

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2007, 11:19:20 AM »
September 11th = cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. :violin:

We've had the Battle of Hastings, the Great Fire of London, and numerous wars against our mainland neighbours, and yet we still get on with life.   ::)

Dallas is over. Enough with the soap opera already -- it's dead and buried.

(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)

I can't agree more :plus:
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
George Bernard Shaw

Offline Natalia Evans

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2007, 02:58:39 PM »
All those other disasters Ozy mentioned happened before our life time so no one wasn't even born yet when they occured so of course we got over it. We didn't lose anyone in our family in them because none of us were even born yet. It be years before this disaster gets over with from everyone because pretty soon we all be dead and the people who will be alive weren't even born yet when it happened, nor anyone in their families.

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2007, 03:15:49 PM »
well spoken, Spokane.
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

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Offline morthaur

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2007, 04:01:00 PM »
(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
Couldn't agree more.  There is a major difference between showing respect for, and solidarity with, the grieving of the victims and their families, but the media needs to shut the hell up about this and give people time to heal in peace.  All of this shameless profiteering, whether it be by publishers or politicians, is just dancing on the graves as far as I'm concerned.

WTF are you talking about?   9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, it had everything to do with Al Queda and their agenda for the return of Palestine.   That is what Osama claimed when he also claimed responsiblity for the attacks.   They basically are all about killing us white devils who took some of their holy land and gave it to the Jews.
Huh.  And here I remembered him saying that it was about getting the infidels out of Arabia--meaning the Americans.  Which, of course, would only be a first step toward his dream of re-establishing the caliphate.  Usama hates the Saudi government every bit as much as the American because he feels that they are traitors to Islam for being moderately pro-Western.  Why do you think the Saudis buy so many weapons from us, anyhow?  The Islamists are gunning for them, too.  And whilst Usama will trumpet the Palestinian cause at times, he's certainly no fan of the PLO and does not fight for their 'liberation' from the Israelis.  Like Saddam, the PLO is secular, and Usama is an Islamist after all...

As for Saddam firing SCUDs at Israel, that was mostly because it was the only freakin' Western target he could hit, and most of them still failed to do any real damage.  Saddam viewed Israel as an American proxy, which to some extent they are (though a less reliable one than Washington would prefer).  If he'd had weapons that could target Americans, you'd better believe they'd have been aimed at us instead.  His beef with Israel had never been religious, remember, it was solely a matter of Arab nationalism, though he was not averse to playing the Islam card at times to garner domestic support.

Offline maldoror

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2007, 10:46:14 PM »
(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
Couldn't agree more.  There is a major difference between showing respect for, and solidarity with, the grieving of the victims and their families, but the media needs to shut the hell up about this and give people time to heal in peace.  All of this shameless profiteering, whether it be by publishers or politicians, is just dancing on the graves as far as I'm concerned.

WTF are you talking about?   9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, it had everything to do with Al Queda and their agenda for the return of Palestine.   That is what Osama claimed when he also claimed responsiblity for the attacks.   They basically are all about killing us white devils who took some of their holy land and gave it to the Jews.
Huh.  And here I remembered him saying that it was about getting the infidels out of Arabia--meaning the Americans.  Which, of course, would only be a first step toward his dream of re-establishing the caliphate.  Usama hates the Saudi government every bit as much as the American because he feels that they are traitors to Islam for being moderately pro-Western.  Why do you think the Saudis buy so many weapons from us, anyhow?  The Islamists are gunning for them, too.  And whilst Usama will trumpet the Palestinian cause at times, he's certainly no fan of the PLO and does not fight for their 'liberation' from the Israelis.  Like Saddam, the PLO is secular, and Usama is an Islamist after all...

As for Saddam firing SCUDs at Israel, that was mostly because it was the only freakin' Western target he could hit, and most of them still failed to do any real damage.  Saddam viewed Israel as an American proxy, which to some extent they are (though a less reliable one than Washington would prefer).  If he'd had weapons that could target Americans, you'd better believe they'd have been aimed at us instead.  His beef with Israel had never been religious, remember, it was solely a matter of Arab nationalism, though he was not averse to playing the Islam card at times to garner domestic support.

 :plus: For an enlightening and informed post.
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Offline mordok

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2007, 11:03:21 PM »
(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
Couldn't agree more.  There is a major difference between showing respect for, and solidarity with, the grieving of the victims and their families, but the media needs to shut the hell up about this and give people time to heal in peace.  All of this shameless profiteering, whether it be by publishers or politicians, is just dancing on the graves as far as I'm concerned.

WTF are you talking about?   9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, it had everything to do with Al Queda and their agenda for the return of Palestine.   That is what Osama claimed when he also claimed responsiblity for the attacks.   They basically are all about killing us white devils who took some of their holy land and gave it to the Jews.
Huh.  And here I remembered him saying that it was about getting the infidels out of Arabia--meaning the Americans.  Which, of course, would only be a first step toward his dream of re-establishing the caliphate.  Usama hates the Saudi government every bit as much as the American because he feels that they are traitors to Islam for being moderately pro-Western.  Why do you think the Saudis buy so many weapons from us, anyhow?  The Islamists are gunning for them, too.  And whilst Usama will trumpet the Palestinian cause at times, he's certainly no fan of the PLO and does not fight for their 'liberation' from the Israelis.  Like Saddam, the PLO is secular, and Usama is an Islamist after all...

As for Saddam firing SCUDs at Israel, that was mostly because it was the only freakin' Western target he could hit, and most of them still failed to do any real damage.  Saddam viewed Israel as an American proxy, which to some extent they are (though a less reliable one than Washington would prefer).  If he'd had weapons that could target Americans, you'd better believe they'd have been aimed at us instead.  His beef with Israel had never been religious, remember, it was solely a matter of Arab nationalism, though he was not averse to playing the Islam card at times to garner domestic support.

 :plus: For an enlightening and informed post.

Agreed.   :plus:

Nice to see you in another thread, morthaur.

Offline Alex179

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2007, 01:03:20 PM »
Quote
"We fought you because we are free ... and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours," bin Laden said.

He said he was first inspired to attack the United States by the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon in which towers and buildings in Beirut were destroyed in the siege of the capital.

"While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women," he said.

"God knows that it had not occurred to our mind to attack the towers, but after our patience ran out and we saw the injustice and inflexibility of the American-Israeli alliance toward our people in Palestine and Lebanon, this came to my mind," he said.

Osama/Usama said this in response to the 9/11 attacks.   These were his words on the videotape lol.

Saddam sure did claim to hate the Jews.   The reason why Arabs like him hate the Jews is due to what the Quran says about Jews and Christians that deny that Allah is the one true God.   It says they are to destroy people who deny Allah.  I can easily find and quote that if you really need me to.
:P   Internets are super serious.

Offline SovaNu

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2007, 02:43:16 PM »
the Osama/Usama crap is done with. it's Osama. get that? ???

i'm gonna kick your ass if you say it's Usama. fuckssake.

anyone who hates Jews gonna have to answer to me! Jews fucking rock. anyone who wants them dead is just jealous cuz they are awesome.
"I think everybody has an asshole component to their personality. It's just a matter of how much you indulge it. Those who do it often form a habit. So like any addiction, you have to learn to overcome it."
~Lord Phlexor

"Sometimes stepping on one's own dick is a memorable learning experience."
~PPK

"We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away."
~Gkar

:blonde:

Offline morthaur

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Re: Sept 11 families
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2007, 08:13:31 PM »
Quote
"We fought you because we are free ... and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours," bin Laden said.
Osama/Usama said this in response to the 9/11 attacks.   These were his words on the videotape lol.
Look again at that first line.  You are confusing the inspiration for an attack on the US with the justification and reasoning for going to war against the infidels in the first place.

Incidentally, the translation on Al Jazeera is much clearer.  The relevant parts from it corresponding to the passage you quoted are there rendered like so.  I will embolden keys passages.
Quote
Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.

If so, then let him explain to us why we don't strike for example - Sweden? And we know that freedom-haters don't possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 - may Allah have mercy on them.

No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.

But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11th, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real causes. And thus, the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred.

So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken, for you to consider.

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.


The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.

In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.


And that day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy, while resistance is terrorism and intolerance.

This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions as Bush Sr did in Iraq in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known, and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children - also in Iraq - as Bush Jr did, in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages.

So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs, should a man be blamed for defending his sanctuary?

Is defending oneself and punishing the aggressor in kind, objectionable terrorism? If it is such, then it is unavoidable for us.


This is the message which I sought to communicate to you in word and deed, repeatedly, for years before September 11th.
And so on.  Look carefully now at what he is saying, because you are torturing the intent with your narrow interpretation.

He is saying that the inspiration for the attack came because Arabs and Arab lands were being bombed, either directly by the US or with American approval, and that such attacks are the reason for retaliation.  By "our nation" he means the Arab lands as a whole; this includes Israel, yes, but it also includes Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the Gulf states, all of which are enemies of Islam for accommodating the Americans (in his view).

Your reading is a gross simplification.  Or rather, it is a complication of what is, for him, a very simple issue: Americans and ancient aliens hurt Arabs, therefore they deserve to be hurt in return.  You cannot understand his behaviour solely in light of the issue in Palestine, as that reading ignores his real goals: remove the infidels from the Arab Homeland.  All of them.

Saddam sure did claim to hate the Jews.   The reason why Arabs like him hate the Jews is due to what the Quran says about Jews and Christians that deny that Allah is the one true God.   It says they are to destroy people who deny Allah.  I can easily find and quote that if you really need me to.
The Qur'an also demands respect and protection for other "peoples of the book", which has allowed numerous small religious minorities to exist in the Near East, with the only criterion being their presence/mention in the Qur'an.  Do you need me to outline in detail the traditional status of Jews in Islamic law?  There is no sensible justification under Islamic law for "destruction" of the Jews, since--according to Qur'anic logic--the Jews actually worship the same G-d.  Which means they do not "deny Allah"!  Did that not even occur to you?!


the Osama/Usama crap is done with. it's Osama. get that? ???

i'm gonna kick your ass if you say it's Usama. fuckssake.
What's the big deal?  Was this actually fought over somewhere when I wasn't paying attention?
I just render it that way out of habit 'cuz it's how I usually see it.  Should we just leave it in Arabic then?   :laugh:
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 08:17:39 PM by morthaur »