The criminal parts of the Koran

[Scrapheap]

No, McJ said that religious people TEND to be poor and weak.

If you think it's not an Appeal to Athority, then what error of logic does it contain??

[Calandale]

Never really worried about the names of the
fallacies.

McJ's statement is lacking ANY support whatsoever.

Thag's makes the movement from a small number of
strong minds to an attempt to disprove that the weak
ones practice religion in greater numbers. It's an answer
to a different issue.

But, one can't expect anyone to clearly lay out a fully developed
argument, just for the shits and giggles. To me, it's a fairly telling
blow, against McJ's position, showing that indeed, some very strong
minds do believe - and given that his claim was entirely unsubstantiated
is certainly better defended.

[Scrapheap]

Never really worried about the names of the
fallacies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

[Scrapheap]

Thag's makes the movement from a small number of
strong minds to an attempt to disprove that the weak
ones practice religion in greater numbers. It's an answer
to a different issue.

Which is to say that Thag's response is a non-sequitur.

[Calandale]

Thag's makes the movement from a small number of
strong minds to an attempt to disprove that the weak
ones practice religion in greater numbers. It's an answer
to a different issue.

Which is to say that Thag's response is a non-sequitur.

Still more telling than the original statement,
which was stated as fact, but completely
unsupported.

[Scrapheap]

Still more telling than the original statement,
which was stated as fact, but completely
unsupported.

There's no way to quantify "Weak of mind". How is he supposed to support an argument like that??

I tend to agree though, religion tends to target those who are vulnerable. (children born into religious families and those who have limited options)

[Calandale]

Vulnerable strikes me as VERY different
from what I see as "weak of mind." Someone
like Scotus, whose writings are so complex that
they are nearly indecipherable, was certainly not
weak of mind. Yet, the nature of his age was such
that there was no real option.

Then again, even religion is difficult to pin down.
Some pure form of Buddhism seems very unlike
what we would consider a religion at all.

[El]

why do the poor and weak of mind tend to practice a religion more than any other?

You're forgetting about the rich who buy their way into heaven. There's churches every 500 yards where I live.

you live in a rich neighbourhood?

churches in america are mostly tax scams.


the word i was looking for is HOPE.  meant to satisfy a normally mundane existance.

Actually, it does alleviate depression in some people for that very reason (hope), so in those cases, if it's not hurting anyone, I'd say "don't knock it."  I'd rather "find god" than have to take antidepressants my whole life, given the two options.  Finding god won't wreck my liver (or any other organs the medication decides to attack), plus it might give me something in common with other people, allowing me to broaden my social network, which in turn is another thing that tends to help with depression.  (Of course, religion makes me more depressed, personally, but I don't fault Christianity for that.  I fault certain specific Christians for that.)

[McGiver]

why do the poor and weak of mind tend to practice a religion more than any other?

Hear that everyone? McTwunt has just proven that Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Blaise Pascal, Decartes, Tolkien, Lewis, Luther, Calvin, Dante, Madeline L'Engle, Isaac Newton, Sir Richard Owen, Edward Drinker Cope, Georges Cuvier, Robert T. Bakker, T. S. Eliot, Milton, Bach, Michelangelo, Bonaventura, Scotus, Berkeley, Copernicus, Galileo, Kelper, Newman, Pasteur, Kierkagaard, Chesteron, Tolstoy, Dickens, Dostoyevsky, Mendel, and Solzhenitsyn were all poor and weak of mind.

 

thanks for the history lesson.

the times have certainly changed and people are more educated now.  science has changed alot of peoples perceptions about several things.
also, how many of those people on your list believed that the world was flat?

maybe i should have clarified....in modern times.

though, many people that you named (during their time-period) religion was the quickest and most sure fire way to power.   

is this enough for you to not act like a condescending twunt?  or do i need to write a 10,000 word essay?



edit: you forgot to name Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.  what about orel roberts, jessy helms, and pat robertson?

[McGiver]

why do the poor and weak of mind tend to practice a religion more than any other?

You're forgetting about the rich who buy their way into heaven. There's churches every 500 yards where I live.

you live in a rich neighbourhood?

churches in america are mostly tax scams.


the word i was looking for is HOPE.  meant to satisfy a normally mundane existance.

Actually, it does alleviate depression in some people for that very reason (hope), so in those cases, if it's not hurting anyone, I'd say "don't knock it."  I'd rather "find god" than have to take antidepressants my whole life, given the two options.  Finding god won't wreck my liver (or any other organs the medication decides to attack), plus it might give me something in common with other people, allowing me to broaden my social network, which in turn is another thing that tends to help with depression.  (Of course, religion makes me more depressed, personally, but I don't fault Christianity for that.  I fault certain specific Christians for that.)

i could agree with this use for religion.  same for many cults.
i way to unify several minds and to give people a sense of belonging.

[El]

i could agree with this use for religion.  same for many cults.
i way to unify several minds and to give people a sense of belonging.

I'm not sure if you're being sincere, or trying to undercut my point by using a hot-button word like "cult."  I'd have to have you tell me how you're defining cult before I agree or disagree; there are dozens of definitions, and no way to know what one you mean unless you tell me.

[McGiver]

i could agree with this use for religion.  same for many cults.
i way to unify several minds and to give people a sense of belonging.

I'm not sure if you're being sincere, or trying to undercut my point by using a hot-button word like "cult."  I'd have to have you tell me how you're defining cult before I agree or disagree; there are dozens of definitions, and no way to know what one you mean unless you tell me.

hale bopp's and the jim jones peoples come to mind.  these people were taking their salvation into their own hands and speeding up the process.  they died happy, did they not?
also, the hari krishna's seem like the happiest people in the world.

religion is a unifying force.  nothing wrong with giving people hope.  take a good look around at the secular world....there isn't much hope here.

[Teejay]

In Reading the Koran (It is a version translated by NJ Dawood in plain modern English), especially the chronically latter verses, which come first in the Koran interestingly enough. The Koran talks a lot about fighting the disbelievers and/or how the disbelievers are going to meet a terrible fate in the afterworld, there is a verse intersting Sura 2 which says 'Fight for the sake of god those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love agressors', although further on the Koran says bloodshed is less worse than idolatry.

Sura 9 is interesting, 'A Declaration of Immunity from god and his apostle (Muhammad) to the idolaters (Non-Muslims) with whom you have made agreements'. further 'Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers, expect to those idolaters who honored their treaties with you in every detail and aided none against the you. With these keep faith, until their treaties have run their term. God loves the righteous.

The Koran confirms that Islam is a political ideology as well as a religion, there are a lot of laws in the Koran, such as those in inheritance, status of women, divorce, punishments. The Koran says about women they are worth half a man, those punishments and laws they meter out in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Taliban era Afghanistan are laid out in the Koran.

[Calandale]

... how many of those people on your list believed that the world was flat?

I would guess only Augustine. Not positive about that even.

[odeon]

In Reading the Koran (It is a version translated by NJ Dawood in plain modern English), especially the chronically latter verses, which come first in the Koran interestingly enough. The Koran talks a lot about fighting the disbelievers and/or how the disbelievers are going to meet a terrible fate in the afterworld, there is a verse intersting Sura 2 which says 'Fight for the sake of god those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love agressors', although further on the Koran says bloodshed is less worse than idolatry.

Sura 9 is interesting, 'A Declaration of Immunity from god and his apostle (Muhammad) to the idolaters (Non-Muslims) with whom you have made agreements'. further 'Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers, expect to those idolaters who honored their treaties with you in every detail and aided none against the you. With these keep faith, until their treaties have run their term. God loves the righteous.

The Koran confirms that Islam is a political ideology as well as a religion, there are a lot of laws in the Koran, such as those in inheritance, status of women, divorce, punishments. The Koran says about women they are worth half a man, those punishments and laws they meter out in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Taliban era Afghanistan are laid out in the Koran.

[3:195] Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another. Thus, those who immigrate, and get evicted from their homes, and are persecuted because of Me, and fight and get killed, I will surely remit their sins and admit them into gardens with flowing streams." Such is the reward from GOD. GOD possesses the ultimate reward.

Do not confuse what The Koran says with what some Muslim countries advocate.

Regarding Sura 9, perhaps you'd better quote the rest:

[9:4-5] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous. Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. ...

God does indeed not love the aggressor.