How much about this fucking WAR should I tell my young son?

[McGiver]

i try to teach them to question everything.....including myself.


i wan't my kids to be their own person not some carbon copy of me, my wife, or what their PC school is trying to jamb down their thraots. 
i just have a theory that people are happier if they find themselves.

I certainly agree with this and it follows my plans exactly, but I hate being undercut and having to play catchup. I know I have probably been more focussed than I should have on the arts, lately and have kept them from some of life's grit, but it's time to be gritty, with my son at least.

yeah, i have been thinking about the school propaganda problem.

i guess you could start a petition.  but most everybody would look at you as some sort of lunatic.

it's just extra work for you.  be creative, make them get on board with your program like i do with the outside truck drivers.   remember, they are just borrowing your kid.  you are the one that all the responsibility ultimately falls on.

i guess it's all about family dinner, from your end.  catch up on the days events then.

[McGiver]

kids tend to rebel.  if i am trying to teach them to be strong, are they going to be weak?

Good question. I'm not sure, but I'm curious to know.

Kids don't rebel against everything, and they don't always rebel forever. They might go through an emo phase as teenagers and then grow out of it.

petes mom is weak and he is strong.  same here.

my grandparents smoked, my mom didn't, and i do.


i would agree that it isn't universal ( the rebellion), but i wonder if what they learn by finding themselves is that they aren't me.

shit i can't explain it well, right now.

I simply think that all people with a strong personality rebel against what they consider unfair and illogical. People who never rebel are weak.

simple yet perhaps true.

i need to think on this one somemore.  thanks lit for the food for thought.

[Peter]

Explain to them how politics in the US really work; how big corporations finance candidates who'll serve their purposes and that it's impossible to get elected without huge amounts of money from corporate and religious sources, necessitating that you support the interests of those groups at the expense of the interests of the US public, that the big news corporations toe the government line to avoid getting into trouble and having their profits hit, and that the US has a deeply nationalistic culture with disturbing parallels to fascist societies (oaths of allegiance, saluting the flag etc).

Also, you could explain to them that primary school teachers aren't exactly the brightest apples in the barrel.  I remember them being as thick as shit when I was at school, and incapable of critical thought or understanding of subjects more advanced than finger painting and addition.  They also used the kids as a captive audience for their own political and religious agendas.  We had a teacher who was an active member of Greenpeace and who'd indoctrinate us with that stuff, and Christian head master who made us sing hymns and watch bible videos.

They might think you're mad, and decide to join the Bush youth and report you to their chapter leader, but you can't give them anything more than the truth.

[DirtDawg]

You can't protect people from being exposed to bullshit, but you can teach them how to detect and interpret it.

My mum has an uncanny ability to buy into whatever bullshit floats her way, and I'm always correcting her misconceptions.

Interesting, my mom is the same way. I have had to pick up the slack since my dad died. She will believe anything.

[Pyraxis]

Explain to them how politics in the US really work; how big corporations finance candidates who'll serve their purposes and that it's impossible to get elected without huge amounts of money from corporate and religious sources, necessitating that you support the interests of those groups at the expense of the interests of the US public, that the big news corporations toe the government line to avoid getting into trouble and having their profits hit, and that the US has a deeply nationalistic culture with disturbing parallels to fascist societies (oaths of allegiance, saluting the flag etc).

They also used the kids as a captive audience for their own political and religious agendas.

Does anyone else see the conflicting messages here?

"You shouldn't listen to people who use you as a captive audience for their political agendas, but here is my political agenda, and it's different, because it's right. What they tell you at school is indoctrination, but what I tell you is the way the world works."

[Calandale]

 

[DirtDawg]

kids tend to rebel.  if i am trying to teach them to be strong, are they going to be weak?

Good question. I'm not sure, but I'm curious to know.

Kids don't rebel against everything, and they don't always rebel forever. They might go through an emo phase as teenagers and then grow out of it.

petes mom is weak and he is strong.  same here.

my grandparents smoked, my mom didn't, and i do.


i would agree that it isn't universal ( the rebellion), but i wonder if what they learn by finding themselves is that they aren't me.

shit i can't explain it well, right now.

I simply think that all people with a strong personality rebel against what they consider unfair and illogical. People who never rebel are weak.

My son is extremely rebelious and a very capable free thinker. Some of the things he objects to are inspiring to me and we have very receptive and open moments in many areas as a result.

He understands quite a bit about the structure of the government as it is intended to work, but I have not been able to breech the "people barrier" with him much. He has no clue how badly we need to wash the scum off of our government's windows.

[McGiver]

Explain to them how politics in the US really work; how big corporations finance candidates who'll serve their purposes and that it's impossible to get elected without huge amounts of money from corporate and religious sources, necessitating that you support the interests of those groups at the expense of the interests of the US public, that the big news corporations toe the government line to avoid getting into trouble and having their profits hit, and that the US has a deeply nationalistic culture with disturbing parallels to fascist societies (oaths of allegiance, saluting the flag etc).

They also used the kids as a captive audience for their own political and religious agendas.

Does anyone else see the conflicting messages here?

"You shouldn't listen to people who use you as a captive audience for their political agendas, but here is my political agenda, and it's different, because it's right. What they tell you at school is indoctrination, but what I tell you is the way the world works."

i think he was just ranting in the first part
then complaining in the second part.



what if my kids turn out to be nimrods?

the school won't take into account their involvememnt.  but i get to carry that burden my whole life.


personally, i think it is better for the parent to preach, rather than the school.  but in the best case scenerio, teach them to be critical thinkers, even where you are concerned.

[Litigious]

Also, you could explain to them that primary school teachers aren't exactly the brightest apples in the barrel.  I remember them being as thick as shit when I was at school, and incapable of critical thought or understanding of subjects more advanced than finger painting and addition. They also used the kids as a captive audience for their own political and religious agendas.  We had a teacher who was an active member of Greenpeace and who'd indoctrinate us with that stuff, and Christian head master who made us sing hymns and watch bible videos.

Sounds exactly like my primary school teachers. Alas. Such jerks should never be allowed to poison the minds of young people.

[DirtDawg]

Explain to them how politics in the US really work; how big corporations finance candidates who'll serve their purposes and that it's impossible to get elected without huge amounts of money from corporate and religious sources, necessitating that you support the interests of those groups at the expense of the interests of the US public, that the big news corporations toe the government line to avoid getting into trouble and having their profits hit, and that the US has a deeply nationalistic culture with disturbing parallels to fascist societies (oaths of allegiance, saluting the flag etc).

They also used the kids as a captive audience for their own political and religious agendas.

Does anyone else see the conflicting messages here?

"You shouldn't listen to people who use you as a captive audience for their political agendas, but here is my political agenda, and it's different, because it's right. What they tell you at school is indoctrination, but what I tell you is the way the world works."

Yes, I caught that as a severely well placed brainbullet, this morning.

[Peter]

Explain to them how politics in the US really work; how big corporations finance candidates who'll serve their purposes and that it's impossible to get elected without huge amounts of money from corporate and religious sources, necessitating that you support the interests of those groups at the expense of the interests of the US public, that the big news corporations toe the government line to avoid getting into trouble and having their profits hit, and that the US has a deeply nationalistic culture with disturbing parallels to fascist societies (oaths of allegiance, saluting the flag etc).

They also used the kids as a captive audience for their own political and religious agendas.

Does anyone else see the conflicting messages here?

"You shouldn't listen to people who use you as a captive audience for their political agendas, but here is my political agenda, and it's different, because it's right. What they tell you at school is indoctrination, but what I tell you is the way the world works."

Not really.  It gets them questioning both sides until they find their own version of the truth, and gives them an explanation for why the truth from some people's perspective may not be reliable, and teaches them that someone, somewhere, is full of shit.

[McGiver]

Explain to them how politics in the US really work; how big corporations finance candidates who'll serve their purposes and that it's impossible to get elected without huge amounts of money from corporate and religious sources, necessitating that you support the interests of those groups at the expense of the interests of the US public, that the big news corporations toe the government line to avoid getting into trouble and having their profits hit, and that the US has a deeply nationalistic culture with disturbing parallels to fascist societies (oaths of allegiance, saluting the flag etc).

They also used the kids as a captive audience for their own political and religious agendas.

Does anyone else see the conflicting messages here?

"You shouldn't listen to people who use you as a captive audience for their political agendas, but here is my political agenda, and it's different, because it's right. What they tell you at school is indoctrination, but what I tell you is the way the world works."

Not really.  It gets them questioning both sides until they find their own version of the truth, and gives them an explanation for why the truth from some people's perspective may not be reliable, and teaches them that someone, somewhere, is full of shit.

what if you have the same POV as the school.

are they getting several sides to consider, then?

[Peter]

Explain to them how politics in the US really work; how big corporations finance candidates who'll serve their purposes and that it's impossible to get elected without huge amounts of money from corporate and religious sources, necessitating that you support the interests of those groups at the expense of the interests of the US public, that the big news corporations toe the government line to avoid getting into trouble and having their profits hit, and that the US has a deeply nationalistic culture with disturbing parallels to fascist societies (oaths of allegiance, saluting the flag etc).

They also used the kids as a captive audience for their own political and religious agendas.

Does anyone else see the conflicting messages here?

"You shouldn't listen to people who use you as a captive audience for their political agendas, but here is my political agenda, and it's different, because it's right. What they tell you at school is indoctrination, but what I tell you is the way the world works."

Not really.  It gets them questioning both sides until they find their own version of the truth, and gives them an explanation for why the truth from some people's perspective may not be reliable, and teaches them that someone, somewhere, is full of shit.

what if you have the same POV as the school.

are they getting several sides to consider, then?

But I don't.  I agree though that it would be better to teach them about human fallibility and critical thinking skills.  I'm just tired and in a pissy mood right now.

[Pyraxis]

Not really.  It gets them questioning both sides until they find their own version of the truth, and gives them an explanation for why the truth from some people's perspective may not be reliable, and teaches them that someone, somewhere, is full of shit.

Depends how old your kid is and how tolerant your reaction is when they start questioning your deeply held beliefs. A young kid isn't going to follow all the logic of your rant, but will learn to mimic your emotional reaction.

[Peter]

Not really.  It gets them questioning both sides until they find their own version of the truth, and gives them an explanation for why the truth from some people's perspective may not be reliable, and teaches them that someone, somewhere, is full of shit.

Depends how old your kid is and how tolerant your reaction is when they start questioning your deeply held beliefs. A young kid isn't going to follow all the logic of your rant, but will learn to mimic your emotional reaction.

Which is a good reminder for why I decided long ago that it's best to avoid talking to anyone when I'm feeling shit like this.  It never turns out well.