Perfection vs good

[El]

To keep going with that: to attempt to be perfect, one first has to define perfect.

Calandale - what's your definition of perfect?

Right now, perfection is nothingness.

So, perfection to you is the absence of anything bad or evil?  Does this mean what we consider "good" is actually imperfect because it exists?  If so, is all existence merely flawed, or utterly bad because it exists?  Or do you need more serotonin?

[Calandale]

So, perfection to you is the absence of anything bad or evil?  Does this mean what we consider "good" is actually imperfect because it exists?  If so, is all existence merely flawed, or utterly bad because it exists?  Or do you need more serotonin?

That which is is wrong. Drugs thus, by their existence....

[El]

So, perfection to you is the absence of anything bad or evil?  Does this mean what we consider "good" is actually imperfect because it exists?  If so, is all existence merely flawed, or utterly bad because it exists?  Or do you need more serotonin?

That which is is wrong. Drugs thus, by their existence....

Yes, but an antidepressant could wipe out your current bad state of extreme negative emotions and repace it with milder negative emotions, and therfore negative emotions which are less esistance-ful.  Not to mention the possibilities in meditation.  Buddhism, enlightenment, anatman... right up your pro-nullification alley (on a superficial level).

[Calandale]

Yes, but an antidepressant could wipe out your current bad state of extreme negative emotions and repace it with milder negative emotions, and therfore negative emotions which are less esistance-ful.  Not to mention the possibilities in meditation.  Buddhism, enlightenment, anatman... right up your pro-nullification alley (on a superficial level).

Sure. Destroy what I am, so that I don't believe in it anymore. That's just great.
Sounds like a limited form of suicide. I like the full flavored version better.

As to meditation, I use magic in this way. I've just been too damned depressed to
do anything in any direction. It'll sort itself out one way or another - it always does.
It just sucks waiting for the spirit to come correctly. Sometimes, I feel like I get tastes
of it - and if I didn't have access to the internet, I'd be healing from this. Damned
addiction.

[El]

Sure. Destroy what I am, so that I don't believe in it anymore. That's just great.
Sounds like a limited form of suicide. I like the full flavored version better.

As to meditation, I use magic in this way. I've just been too damned depressed to
do anything in any direction. It'll sort itself out one way or another - it always does.
It just sucks waiting for the spirit to come correctly. Sometimes, I feel like I get tastes
of it - and if I didn't have access to the internet, I'd be healing from this. Damned
addiction.

Then why don't you make your internet connection perfect for a little while?  A pair of scissors should suffice.

[Calandale]

Then why don't you make your internet connection perfect for a little while?  A pair of scissors should suffice.

I wish. I really wish that I could just stop. I was doing ok in the fall, when I didn't have a connection,
but someone moved nearby, and I can leach off of them. It seems so damned easy to just say, "don't
do it." And on my walks home from school, I am completely convinced not to. BUT, no matter what,
I just don't seem to have the will to avoid it. The thing is, if I push it aside temporarily, I end up doing
little of value anyway - but if I just didn't have it, I think that I could regain control. It doesn't rest me
the way that being off of the computer does.

[El]

I'd be interested to see your "Good=nothingness, evil=existence" idea fleshed out in the anti-philosophy forum, supported by some type of reasonable argument and not just the idea that life sucks.  I'd be interetsed to see if you can support it, and/or I'd like picking it apart other than to say "Buck up, it's not all bad."

[Calandale]

Sure I2 contributes. But something else would take it's place.
I was wasting my time over at a gaming site, before I started
looking into Asperger's. Then I switched to WP, and spent
too much time there.

As to the philosophy, it is merely an absurdity. Not worth
defending or preaching. It is really based upon the pun,
"Nothing is better than the best thing." It's not a categorical
error, and I can't really see the flaw in it. Not much to do
with life sucking, actually.

Comes down to, if there is no point to it all, it just doesn't
make a bit of difference, and nothingness is an aesthetically
more pleasing way to have no point. What if there is some
point? Well, without knowing it, one can't be certain of
acting towards it (or if it is good or not), so you're almost
in the same position as there being no point, but less
empowered - a circumstance which seems much less
attractive than absolute non-existence.

[El]

Don't get me wrong, I undertsand the feeling.  My problem is that it's a feeling and not a viable worldview in any way I can see.  On the other hand, working toward a goal of reducing your misery in some way- perferably construstive and/or non-desructive- can not only be a worthy goal, but partly self-accomplishing.  Hopelessness is one of the hallmark thought patterns of depression.  I'm assuming that the answer is yes, but I'll ask any way:  if someone could magically make you feel better- not perfect, but no longer suicidal, and maybe healthy enough to kick some bad habits and make life less objectively depression- would you tell them to fuck off and try jumping out a window instead?

[Calandale]

I'm assuming that the answer is yes, but I'll ask any way:  if someone could magically make you feel better- not perfect, but no longer suicidal, and maybe healthy enough to kick some bad habits and make life less objectively depression- would you tell them to fuck off and try jumping out a window instead?

I don't know. It sounds cheap to me. Like this is a struggle that I have to win, without some magical interference.

From a less allegorical perspective, I want to be responsible for carving the new pathways into my mind,
not some drug, whose effects I cannot completely understand.

[El]

I'm assuming that the answer is yes, but I'll ask any way:  if someone could magically make you feel better- not perfect, but no longer suicidal, and maybe healthy enough to kick some bad habits and make life less objectively depression- would you tell them to fuck off and try jumping out a window instead?

I don't know. It sounds cheap to me. Like this is a struggle that I have to win, without some magical interference.

From a less allegorical perspective, I want to be responsible for carving the new pathways into my mind,
not some drug, whose effects I cannot completely understand.

Actually, it's good you said that because drugs aren't magic.  I was just wodnering if you'd be open to changign at all, even in an unrealistically ideal scenario.  I've been on antidepressants and known people who were, and believe me, you're not walking on air all the time.  It's a matter of possibly being able to get through an entire day without crying, for example.

Beyond that, antidepressants are an external solution to an internal problem, and cognitive therapy is as good or better than antidepressants for many people (better because when you quit therapy, the problems are still lessened, whereas when you go off meds, you haven't leanred anything that carries on).  Would you at least be willing to seek THAT kind of help?  Think of a therapist as a personal trainer for bulking yourself up, perhaps.  They don't do the work for you.  They just tell you things that you can do to help yourself, and (if they're good) give you a nice mental smack upside the head if you're fucking it up when you CAN do better.

[Calandale]

Actually, it's good you said that because drugs aren't magic.  I was just wodnering if you'd be open to changign at all, even in an unrealistically ideal scenario.  I've been on antidepressants and known people who were, and believe me, you're not walking on air all the time.  It's a matter of possibly being able to get through an entire day without crying, for example.

I haven't been able to cry recently. Kind of view that as a weakness now. Came close a couple of times, when I read about some of the situations over on WP - especially with people being forced to lose their minds to drugs that they can feel are destroying them. I have seen it happen enough IRL, that it just came too clearly.

Beyond that, antidepressants are an external solution to an internal problem, and cognitive therapy is as good or better than antidepressants for many people (better because when you quit therapy, the problems are still lessened, whereas when you go off meds, you haven't leanred anything that carries on).  Would you at least be willing to seek THAT kind of help?  Think of a therapist as a personal trainer for bulking yourself up, perhaps.  They don't do the work for you.  They just tell you things that you can do to help yourself, and (if they're good) give you a nice mental smack upside the head if you're fucking it up when you CAN do better.

I'm willing to try. I was seeing a shrink over the fall, and though I don't know if it was doing any good, it certainly
wasn't harming. It's nice to have someone to yak at. Tried contacting him in a moment of desperation yesterday,
and hid schedules pretty full for a while. I don't feel that he's likely to be much help - others might be better, but
I only have a couple more sessions that I can legitimately have with him. Mainly, the problem was that he WOULDN'T
give me that smack. I don't even know if a professional is what I really need at all - but it seems to be what I'd have
to settle for.

[El]

I'm willing to try. I was seeing a shrink over the fall, and though I don't know if it was doing any good, it certainly
wasn't harming. It's nice to have someone to yak at. Tried contacting him in a moment of desperation yesterday,
and hid schedules pretty full for a while. I don't feel that he's likely to be much help - others might be better, but
I only have a couple more sessions that I can legitimately have with him. Mainly, the problem was that he WOULDN'T
give me that smack. I don't even know if a professional is what I really need at all - but it seems to be what I'd have
to settle for.

There are too many incompentant touchy-feely "paid friends" out there posing as therapists, IMO.  I've actually told mine "I want this to be more directive.  I want to solve this.  I've been over this."  Feel free to do the same with yours.  WHo knows, it may help.  Americans tend to want nondirective, apparently.  I can't for the life of me understand why.  You might as well just talk to every telemarketer that calls and refuse to hang up.

[Calandale]

Maybe I ought to get a phone and try that.