I quit

[Walkie]

Walkie, that excessive policing of incorrect speech or mistaken views is sometimes referred to as "cancel culture".

I don't like it. It is much more helpful to try to help people to be better, to explain why they are wrong.

Give them a few chances at least to understand and to at least try to stop being an ignorant boofhead.

can't disagree with anthing you said this post or the previous. that term "cancel culture" might be helpful . thanks.
as for the rest, i don't see how it adresses my frustration, and thinking maybe wasn't intended to, just you rambling on at a tangent? (can't say i never do that myself  )

obviously i can't put the world to rights just be honing my debating skills, nor any which way, come to that. i just wish we could all be more open to seeing each others POV. amd not so fast to judge. But that would demand better education, self-education, psychotherapy, etc. for the whole stupid lot of us. 

 Points of view are highly individual, born of individual experience,  emotion , prejudice  etc. with logic playing a minor, supporting role. even- or  rather, especially - in those of us who believe ourselves to be  super- logical.  Because logic, like stats,  can be used to support pretty much any damned position you like, depending what data you feed it.  Data selection mostly occurs on an unconscious level , so you really need  practice at fearless introspection , if you'd rather not be entrenched in unreasonable/unrealistic points-of-view. It usually takes skill, as well as close, respectful, individual attention , often  over a considerable timespan , to pull someone out of  such viewpoints.

What i'm looking at, all too often, and especially where racism is concerned- is a bunch of idiots doing their damnedest to entrench other folk in their unrealistic mindsets, by refusing to listen to their (often legitimate) concerns,  judging them, and tarring them with the same broad bush they apply to brutal, mindless thugs, on the slenderst evidence of wrongdoing, nothing more than a thought or a word.  You can damage people  by remote;  you can make them feel guilty and worthless just by broadcasting that sort of message on the media;  but you cant so easily undo that sort of damage by remote. 

I  find that depressing.  When you do that to people who are not especially intelligent, not especially articulate, have low socio- economic status etc,  then they have no realistic defence at their disposal; the best they can do, by way of self-defence,  is lash out.   And that's bound to compound the problem. ofc.  No matter what manner of defence  i might  have at my own disposal, I'm apt to  feel helpless in the face of all that , ofc,  because i actually do want to put the world to rights. Don't we all?

 

 

[FourAceDeal]

Anyone with any introspection and understanding of what is going on in culture HAS to back Conservative voices if they are honest and give a damn.
I see the word "Conservative" & I now associate it with sane.  I see "Left" or "Liberal" and without reading more, I groan inwardly

When cops start murdering entitled, racist white assholes just because of the colour of their skin I promise I'll march for them too. 

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

can't disagree with anthing you said this post or the previous. that term "cancel culture" might be helpful . thanks.
as for the rest, i don't see how it adresses my frustration, and thinking maybe wasn't intended to, just you rambling on at a tangent? (can't say i never do that myself  )

Pretty much me rambling on at a tangent. Kinda saying why those people are so frustrating and impossible to have a meaningful discussion with.

An observation on those who don't seek to learn, but rather seek to reinforce their biases until all they can do is regurgitate right-wing propaganda and spew hate towards those who do not agree with them.

[Walkie]

can't disagree with anthing you said this post or the previous. that term "cancel culture" might be helpful . thanks.
as for the rest, i don't see how it adresses my frustration, and thinking maybe wasn't intended to, just you rambling on at a tangent? (can't say i never do that myself  )

Pretty much me rambling on at a tangent. Kinda saying why those people are so frustrating and impossible to have a meaningful discussion with.

An observation on those who don't seek to learn, but rather seek to reinforce their biases until all they can do is regurgitate right-wing propaganda and spew hate towards those who do not agree with them.

I had a "friend"who pretty much fit that description once. He had a good heart , but it wasn't easy to reach it.  It took me a couple of decades or so to really get through to him.  But i kept trying to gently prise him open and adress his  underlying problems, because i cared, and because he was hurting himself , more than anybody else in actuality.  He was a really crap friend, as friends go,  but, to my amazement  the more self-aware he bacame, and the less biased he became, the more of a genuine, caring friend he became.   Towards the end of his life, he was actually there for me when i (unexpectedly) badly  needed a friend ; and actually providing things i needed, not the last thing i needed, as was formerly his wont 

I shouldn't be surprised by that outcome.  That makes perfect sense. it's just that i wasn't really expecting to influence him that much (just backing a long-shot, as i often like to do) nor was i looking for emotional support nor anything like that (I used to specialise in one-way friendships, because i don;t like people blundering about in my head , thanks    And it made me feel  "useful" ofc.   I don't wanna pretend to be "selfless")

Ofc that's no sort of fix for our large scale social problems.  We surely need a much quicker fix than that.  But , equally, we don't need people taking the opposite tack, never mind how noble their motives might be, that's bound to turn out really badly for all concerned.

[Walkie]

An observation on those who don't seek to learn, but rather seek to reinforce their biases until all they can do is regurgitate right-wing propaganda and spew hate towards those who do not agree with them.

PS I feel its worth adding that you can substitute pretty much  any ideology for right-wing, there.

Okay, okay, it's my experience, TBH,  that those who want to learn are apt to gravitate towards the left  (albeit painfully slowly in some cases)  but, for one thing: how can we  be sure that my own bias towards the left isn't influencing my perceptions? and for another: it's pretty damned obvious to me that quite a  of those who "regurgitate propaganda and spew hate towards those who do not agree with them"consider themse;ves left wing,  and are generally regarded as such.  It would be nice and simple  if those people were exclusively right wing, but they're not.

If we take Al as a handy example, it's painfully clear from many of his posts, that he feels personally affronted by the "left-wing"hatespeech, and that this was one major factor in pushing him to the right. Not exactly the desired effect (I should hope) .

[Phoenix]

There are some things though that defy party lines and simply become about humanity. The current protests and what the Black population is fighting for is about humanity. That has nothing to do with the left or right ideology and that's when I lose compassion for people who refuse to acknowledge that no matter what party you side with, Black people are born with  less advantage, less opportunity, are overlooked for job promotions, are less trusted, are assumed to be gang affiliated when they're young, have women clutch their purses when they get into an elevator etc etc etc.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

There are some things though that defy party lines and simply become about humanity.

Mitt Romney marching with BLM protesters showed that very well.

Although the lack of humanity and lack of recognition of the problems facing minorities does tend to coagulate around certain right wing groups and leaders.

[Phoenix]

There are some things though that defy party lines and simply become about humanity.

Mitt Romney marching with BLM protesters showed that very well.

Although the lack of humanity and lack of recognition of the problems facing minorities does tend to coagulate around certain right wing groups and leaders.

Agreed. I was thinking more along the lines of people screaming it's all leftist agenda when it's about humanity.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

PS I feel its worth adding that you can (1) substitute pretty much  any ideology for right-wing, there.

Okay, okay, it's my experience, TBH,  that those who want to learn are apt to gravitate towards the left  (albeit painfully slowly in some cases)  but, for one thing:  (2) how can we  be sure that my own bias towards the left isn't influencing my perceptions? and for another: it's pretty damned obvious to me that quite a  of those who "regurgitate propaganda and spew hate towards those who do not agree with them"(3) consider themse;ves left wing,  and are generally regarded as such.  It would be nice and simple  if those people were exclusively right wing, but they're not.

If we take Al as a handy example, it's painfully clear from many of his posts, that he feels personally affronted by the "(4) left-wing"hatespeech, and that this was one major factor in pushing him to the right. Not exactly the desired effect (I should hope) .

(1) Absolutely. I have lefty friends online who are in a constant state of disbelief that right wing parties keep getting elected among other things like lack of action on climate change. I tell them that they need to get out of their progressive bubbles more.

(2) You can be absolutely certain that your left-wing bias is influencing your perceptions. I know for sure that mine is. As painful as it is, I do try to learn about and understand conservative and right-wing perspectives.

(3) Yes, there are plenty of examples of these. The Democrats in the US are seen as radically left-wing by many in the US, but as Chomsky states they abandoned the working class 4 decades ago and it's probably fair to say that they have abandoned the middle class now as well. Sam Harris, his views are often bordering on alt-right, and yet he considers himself a lefty.

(4) Left-Wing hate speech? That is what conservative groups have become very good at, picking out some shouty college students and claiming that free speech is under threat. While support for actual freedom of speech is on the rise and is much higher among progressives than among conservatives.


The reality is that conservative groups have become a lot better at selling their narratives than the progressives have ever been. They have turned it into a science. It has become a culture war. The reality is that we've made a LOT of progress socially over the past few decades, far more than most of us would have thought possible, and there is bound to be some pushback. Meanwhile the left has not simply lost the economic struggle, they have effectively joined forces with the right. The only economically left wing politicians in the US, for example, that I can think of would be AOC and Bernie Sanders. Hillary Clinton? Joe Biden? Wall Street Pete? Anything but left wing economically.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

https://boingboing.net/2020/06/09/cops-slash-dozens-of-car-tires.html

Cops and national guard went around a K Mart car park and slashed every tyre on every car.

Who actually believes their made-up reasons for doing this? Of course they weren't going to come out and admit that it was an act of spite towards protesters.

[Phoenix]

There must be video surveillance from the store into the parking lot and they've now pissed off the wrong people. They don't care much for media but now that you've gone after ALL the media, the media will go after you.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

There must be video surveillance from the store into the parking lot and they've now pissed off the wrong people. They don't care much for media but now that you've gone after ALL the media, the media will go after you.

Cops have been assaulting media, shooting media with rubber bullets, arresting media. It seems like they already think of the media as their enemy. I hope the media does change its tune after this and demand that cops be held accountable.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/channel-7-journalists-assaulted-police-george-floyd-protesters/12312056

"In these examples, journalists have been shot with rubber bullets, targeted with stun grenades, tear-gassed, physically attacked, pepper-sprayed and arrested," Bellingcat analyst Nick Waters said in a report.

"Although in some incidents it is possible the journalists were hit or affected accidentally, in the majority of the cases we have recorded the journalists are clearly identifiable as press, and it is clear that they are being deliberately targeted.

"This pattern of violence against journalists is replicated in several cities, but appears most intense in Minneapolis."

This is how organizations with toxic and violent cultures, that think they are above the law, behave.

[Walkie]

Nice reply, Mo.   Just gonna, skip the yup , yup,  yup and be a teeny bit picky here:

(4) Left-Wing hate speech? That is what conservative groups have become very good at, picking out some shouty college students and claiming that free speech is under threat. While support for actual freedom of speech is on the rise and is much higher among progressives than among conservatives.

Er,   play fair, I put that phrase in quote marks , didn't I?  And you rubbed them out.  I don't think any of those folk are genuinely left wing, as well you know.  I think you're probably right about support for actual free speech being on the rise, but that;s to say we've just been through the absolute  nadir,  here in sunny Britain.  The hatespeech towards Brexiters, for one obvious example, was singularly  vituperous, extremely widspread and singularly toxic for the white lower classes - who still have bugger all to show for their natural-born advantage  except for their precious (and curiously impotent) white hides.  Lazy bastards  And that  hasn't simmerered down so much as attached itself to other issues., such as overpopulation (which still has to be approached very gingerly and apologetically. for fear of the "racist"accusations). But, anyway,  hatespeech against the lower classes is not,  and never was,  just a "free speech" issue , nor is it just a "racism" related issue , it's multi-pronged. It is and always was  totally permissible to be prejudiced against the poor (just so long as they're predominately white, ofc. and so long as you're not genuinely left wing) and so the right and the pseudo left can happily go to town on the poor whenever they're looking around for a scapegoat; and they can couch their attack in any terms they fancy,  just so long as it's half way credible. ""Benefts scroungers" was still a popular jibe, until it came to lockdown.    They might have to be a bit careful from now on 

 Anyways, just because Al had his very own cock-eyed take on it, dosn't mean it's not real.

The reality is that we've made a LOT of progress socially over the past few decades, far more than most of us would have thought possible, and there is bound to be some pushback.

Ummm, from a British point of view , we made a heckova lot of progress socially following WW2. which trailed to a halt and went into reverse during the seventies. The past four decades have all been relentless pushback.   I'm pretty sure you know that already though. I just mean to ask , what does "we" mean in this context? And to observe that, if your pushback has only just started,  I hope to god that  you dont have to suffer four decades or more of this thing.

Meanwhile the left has not simply lost the economic struggle, they have effectively joined forces with the right. The only economically left wing politicians in the US, for example, that I can think of would be AOC and Bernie Sanders. Hillary Clinton? Joe Biden? Wall Street Pete? Anything but left wing economically.

Exactltly. But the economic struggle is the thing, isn't it? If you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is,  then  you're definitely not left wing. Just hot air. 

[Phoenix]

There must be video surveillance from the store into the parking lot and they've now pissed off the wrong people. They don't care much for media but now that you've gone after ALL the media, the media will go after you.

Cops have been assaulting media, shooting media with rubber bullets, arresting media. It seems like they already think of the media as their enemy. I hope the media does change its tune after this and demand that cops be held accountable.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-02/channel-7-journalists-assaulted-police-george-floyd-protesters/12312056

"In these examples, journalists have been shot with rubber bullets, targeted with stun grenades, tear-gassed, physically attacked, pepper-sprayed and arrested," Bellingcat analyst Nick Waters said in a report.

"Although in some incidents it is possible the journalists were hit or affected accidentally, in the majority of the cases we have recorded the journalists are clearly identifiable as press, and it is clear that they are being deliberately targeted.

"This pattern of violence against journalists is replicated in several cities, but appears most intense in Minneapolis."

This is how organizations with toxic and violent cultures, that think they are above the law, behave.

Oh I know. I was aware but they're usually doing it in the hype of the protest when adrenaline is coursing. To be this covert and sneaky and intentional in a different way, it will escalate things because it changes the dynamic of the "relationship" for lack of a better word. They've gone from intentionally hurting people to also intentionally damaging property belonging to the people they intend to abuse.

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

Sorry Walkie, yes, I knew that you don't believe that "left wing hate speech" is an actual thing. Sorry for leaving off the quotation marks. I am violently in agreement with you.

By social progress I mean, for one thing, how overt racism has declined. You don't often see comedians in blackface and putting on bad Indian accents and playing up to racial stereotypes for laughs these days. The racist jokes we used to tell when I was at school were horrendous, but if my kids went to school and told one of those jokes I'd likely get a call from the headmaster and a "please explain". You can be openly gay these days without too much risk of being thrown off a cliff (as was happening on a semi-regular basis in Sydney's Eastern Suburbs in the 80s, and the cops pretty much didn't even bother to investigate) or arrested. Gay couples can adopt kids. Gay men don't need to befriend or recruit young ladies to use as "handbags" (pretend girlfriends for gay dudes). Cops have gone from bashing people for trying to hold a gay pride march in Sydney to having their own float in the parade.

In terms of economic progress, despite huge gains in productivity, the working class has often gone backwards in terms of real income, job security and getting enough hours to be able to afford the basics, and social welfare and public services like health and transport have (of course) been deliberately defunded. That's what I'm talking about in terms of the left losing the economic struggle. But at least the billionaires are doing okay.