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Author Topic: I quit  (Read 8686 times)

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Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: I quit
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2020, 08:41:15 PM »
...before the Progressives took over and lay down their Authoritarian ideology....

Meanwhile, on Planet Earth, in a quiet little pocket known as Straya, probably our most corrupt and regressive political leader is seeking to enact some more authoritarianism. Because he can.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/new-asio-law-one-more-step-towards-a-totalitarian-state-20200513-p54smi.html#comments

The idea that it is progressives who are the source of creeping authoritarianism because some progressives want people to be nice and use someone's preferred pronoun..... is ludicrous, laughable, delusional at best. It's guzzling the right-wing kool aid like there is no tomorrow.

“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2020, 12:06:37 AM »
Yeah, I always found that argument baffling.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Walkie

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Re: I quit
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2020, 04:39:37 AM »
...before the Progressives took over and lay down their Authoritarian ideology....

Meanwhile, on Planet Earth, in a quiet little pocket known as Straya, probably our most corrupt and regressive political leader is seeking to enact some more authoritarianism. Because he can.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/new-asio-law-one-more-step-towards-a-totalitarian-state-20200513-p54smi.html#comments

The idea that it is progressives who are the source of creeping authoritarianism because some progressives want people to be nice and use someone's preferred pronoun..... is ludicrous, laughable, delusional at best. It's guzzling the right-wing kool aid like there is no tomorrow.
good grief!  :zombiefuck:
But hang on, you're saying this guy isn't one of them evil Progressives?

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: I quit
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2020, 05:38:07 AM »
No Walkie, he's a good freedom-loving individual-rights-respecting conservative. Not one of them fascist progressives. I'm sure it's fake news.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Walkie

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Re: I quit
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2020, 05:55:08 AM »
 :apondering: actually , to be fair to Al, i think the problem is that various groups in recent years have been harnessing aggressive identity politics to the pervasive neoloberal ideologiy and thereby passing themselves off as "Socialists"or "progressives". Which is fucking absurd, but there it is. People do, increasingly,  uncritically buy this repackaging , and it works to give Socialism a bad name on the one hand , and to extract it's teeth on the other hand. That Al belongs to former group (those who have thereby learned to blame Socialism for all the neoliberal failings) is given away by his frequent anti-Feminist rants.  And that I belong to the latter group (teeth extracted) is sadly obvious.

 I just found this really, really interesting article in the Gaurdian, c 2016,  which explains (amonst other things) why neoliberalism  paradoxically leads to increased Authoritarianism:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot

I was only looking for a decent,  authoritative , definiton of neoliberalism  :LOL:
But I was gobsmacked  to find out just  how relevant ithat article  is to your link, Mo.  You'll have to read quite a long way down before you see what I mean, but it's worth it. It's really worth it. 

 :apondering:  This was the stupidest thread , on the stupidest board to present some kind of serious argument isn't it?   :LOL: Ah well.  We're all going to hell in a handcart anyway. Might as well enjoy the ride.

Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2020, 06:55:16 AM »
Quote
I was only looking for a decent,  authoritative , definiton of neoliberalism

I read this as "I was only looking for a decent,  authoritarian , definiton of neoliberalism "
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Walkie

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Re: I quit
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2020, 07:22:31 AM »
^ :lol1: good luck with finding that

Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2020, 12:05:53 PM »
I'd love to see it, though. :laugh:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: I quit
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2020, 10:44:57 PM »
That's an excellent article Walkie, I've seen it before. More than once. The definitive article on neoliberalism. Chomsky, sadly, is older than dirt, but Varoufakis and Monbiot still carry on the fight. Monbiot has written a number of brilliant articles on this and related subjects.

This is good, particularly the second half where Chomsky describes neoliberalism:


We already spoke about this elsewhere, how the destruction of empathy, compassion, and even the very idea of society, is a necessary part of diminishing the role of democratically elected governments and replacing that with unaccountable corporate tyranny. Meanwhile you've got millions of grown men terrified of a few women with penises and shouty students.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: I quit
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2020, 10:51:13 PM »
Just to add to the points you made already Walkie, the "progressive" parties in the developed world have already hitched their wagons to unrestrained neoliberalism, and identity politics is the only thing that differentiates them to any great extent from the so-called conservative parties. Having long since abandoned the role of c championing the working classes.

I'm using a bit of hyperbole. But you get the idea hopefully.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Walkie

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Re: I quit
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2020, 05:36:54 AM »
^ I do, ofc. very well put. And the Chomsky vid is great. I wouldn't think it was possible to condense so much relevant history into a 7 minute vid. If there were only some way to get everyone to watch it.  :plus:

Offline Walkie

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Re: I quit
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2020, 07:02:51 AM »
P.S. here's something you haven't seen before (probably). A remarkably good Marxist-feminist tract:

https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/books_pamphlets/Women_and_the_struggle_for_socialism


It's a bit heavy on sweeping generalistions, but not so bad as the other side; and the analysis  is great; knocks Al's arguments  into a cocked hat, not that he'd notice.

Coincidentally, the last local SP branch meeting  was about identity politics, and i hesitated to log in, being depressed enough already.  But then  i was happy to learn that we were all of one mind in feeling that identity politics are effectively divisive;  and that you can't combat prejudice by wagging your finger at a working class bloke, you'll only antagonise him.   Which really ought t to be obvious, eh? Nonetheless, some other branches had hitched their wagon to Feminism in recent election campaigns, and were predictably hammerered.   

Ofc, people (not unreasonably) expect that socialists will support all the variouis equal rights movements. And they do.  So these branches  thought they were responding (entirely  honestly) to popular demand, and would thereby increase their vote (whereas they actually halved it, compared to previous elections) . But the Marxist approach is, basically,  to first unite people behind a common cause . And if 99% of the world's populatuiion is exploited and oppressed by the other 1% , that really shouldn't be too difficult should it?  All the rest of it  pretty much follows naturally. But you really can't put the cart before the horse. :LOL:

None of that is hard to understand, is it? but it can't be reduced to a snappy slogan.

 :apondering: Chomsky forgot to add ""snappy slogans"to his list of modern weapons of mass destruction, didn't he?  (emo)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 07:30:58 AM by Walkie »

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: I quit
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2020, 05:05:32 PM »
Walkie, that article is extremely long. It's up there in word count with some of Al's post, but stronger on coherence. I will get back to it.

I have no issue with identity politics, all politics is identity politics at some level. It's when you start telling the white guy who is worried about his job or working long hours for peanuts and worrying about paying the rent and feeding the kids that the problem is that he is too privileged... that's when you lose people. Identity politics can continue to be important but when it becomes the primary element of leftist politics, say goodbye to mainstream relevance.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline Minister Of Silly Walks

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Re: I quit
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2020, 05:15:27 PM »
In Australia we don't have a centre right and a centre left party any more. We have two flavours of conservative. As does the US. Obviously your pretend working class party can't run on their true platform, which is diminishing the role of government in favour of a minimally regulated and undemocratic private sector, but not quite as bad as the other guys. The advent of the career politician in leftist politics is problematic, people who make choices and decisions based on furthering their lucrative careers rather than the interests of those who voted for them.
“When men oppress their fellow men, the oppressor ever finds, in the character of the oppressed, a full justification for his oppression.” Frederick Douglass

Offline odeon

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Re: I quit
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2020, 02:34:01 AM »
^Do you have any greens in Australia? :-\
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein