Alexandria Occasional-Cortex and the "Green New Deal".

[odeon]

Again, the general public are duped to believe they are the problem and/or the solution. How about the federal government should clean up its own house first. The department of defense as an entity has been labeled both the nation's and the world's largest polluter, producing more hazardous waste than the top five largest US chemical companies combined. The single largest consumer of fuel in the world, and thus the largest greenhouse gas emitter. The third largest polluter of US waterways. So on and so on. In the meantime, I'll eat meat and drive my car, and wont criticize AOC because she doesn't use the subway.

The fact is that we are all part of the problem, like it or not.

When I clean up a mess, I go for the biggest pieces first. In ten minutes, a B52 jet consumes more fuel than the average driver per year. Any climate change initiative which doesn't directly address the military is probably just lip service. The Pentagon has a blanket exemption in all international climate agreements; they don't have to report anything to anyone, so it's almost impossible to know the exact numbers. Barry Sanders researched US military fuel consumption for his book, and if his calculations can be believed, he concluded the DoD contributes 5% of the world's climate pollution. Since the entire country has been calculated at about 15% globally, that means tackling a third of the country's problem by addressing one single entity. If what's her name has said, or ever says, she intends to clean up the DoD, then will take her a little more seriously.

In other words, it's always someone else's responsibility?

Right.

To answer the question, no. Anymore words you want to put in my mouth?

See MOSW's comments.

[odeon]

And sorry, Jack. I can't be bothered to sling mud, either. I'm not sure why you think your comments about mockery and maturity [re AOC's GND] are above that sort of thing but they are sidetracking the issue.

Humanity has a huge problem, one that wasn't invented by AOC.

[Jack]

And sorry, Jack. I can't be bothered to sling mud, either. I'm not sure why you think your comments about mockery and maturity [re AOC's GND] are above that sort of thing but they are sidetracking the issue.

Humanity has a huge problem, one that wasn't invented by AOC.

Attacking the idea doesn't sling mud at you or anything you said. Supporters of the green new deal recognize these are 50 year goals at best. They also recognize a climate proposal which focuses on too many other things that aren't climate initiatives, some of which aren't even problems, detracts from the importance of a climate proposal. The republicans did in fact make a mockery of climate change, AOC, and even the process of congressional voting. The purpose of the vote was to be divisive and make fools of the democrats, and the green new deal open the door to allow that. Maybe the democrats should have called their bluff and voted yes and looked foolish, but they want their party to win the next election so their reaction of protest was the smartest thing to do. It may not even be AOC's fault; maybe she was set up by her party, sent to the front lines to catch a hail of bullets, so then someone more experienced who can't be mocked as an economic illiterate can some along afterwards and propose something more realistic. That's why I said from the beginning, it's an immature daydream, but at least now the pressure is on for someone to better. But holy crap, jack said the green new deal is unrealistic and immature, so let's twist her words, because the logical conclusion is climate denial and doing nothing is mature. It's always someone else's responsibility other than Jack's. Go ahead and defend that. I don't mind being talked down to if the person at least offers something else along with it to contribute to the conversation, then that allows me something else to respond to. If that continues to happen, then you and I can carry on talking.

[Jack]

maybe she was set up by her party

Having said that, will still stick to the initial response. The author of Scrap's posted article is correct. It was a political stunt on both sides. The vote was a republican stunt, and the proposal was a democrat stunt. The number one manipulation tactic in negotiations is ask first for more than what's wanted, because when it's denied then one can ask for less and thus appear reasonable and willing to compromise. Seriously, who wants to appear unreasonable and unwilling to compromise about the environment? The answer may turn out to be, the republican party. The democrats know exactly what they're doing.

[Gopher Gary]

Way to kill the thread, Jack. 

I'll sling mud with you guys. So which one of you commie pseudo-tree huggers is going to pay for my new electric car?  I'm little so I wont mind one of those teeny tiny ones that's the least expensive.

[Calandale]

Way to kill the thread, Jack. 

I'll sling mud with you guys. So which one of you commie pseudo-tree huggers is going to pay for my new electric car?  I'm little so I wont mind one of those teeny tiny ones that's the least expensive.

You get a clear plastic ball and will love it.

[odeon]

And sorry, Jack. I can't be bothered to sling mud, either. I'm not sure why you think your comments about mockery and maturity [re AOC's GND] are above that sort of thing but they are sidetracking the issue.

Humanity has a huge problem, one that wasn't invented by AOC.

Attacking the idea doesn't sling mud at you or anything you said. Supporters of the green new deal recognize these are 50 year goals at best. They also recognize a climate proposal which focuses on too many other things that aren't climate initiatives, some of which aren't even problems, detracts from the importance of a climate proposal. The republicans did in fact make a mockery of climate change, AOC, and even the process of congressional voting. The purpose of the vote was to be divisive and make fools of the democrats, and the green new deal open the door to allow that. Maybe the democrats should have called their bluff and voted yes and looked foolish, but they want their party to win the next election so their reaction of protest was the smartest thing to do. It may not even be AOC's fault; maybe she was set up by her party, sent to the front lines to catch a hail of bullets, so then someone more experienced who can't be mocked as an economic illiterate can some along afterwards and propose something more realistic. That's why I said from the beginning, it's an immature daydream, but at least now the pressure is on for someone to better. But holy crap, jack said the green new deal is unrealistic and immature, so let's twist her words, because the logical conclusion is climate denial and doing nothing is mature. It's always someone else's responsibility other than Jack's. Go ahead and defend that. I don't mind being talked down to if the person at least offers something else along with it to contribute to the conversation, then that allows me something else to respond to. If that continues to happen, then you and I can carry on talking.

I'll maintain that it's not immature and it's not a daydream. I also don't think it's a setup. It's idealistic, absolutely, but I'd rather not focus on what to me seems like a conspiracy theory.

[Jack]

And sorry, Jack. I can't be bothered to sling mud, either. I'm not sure why you think your comments about mockery and maturity [re AOC's GND] are above that sort of thing but they are sidetracking the issue.

Humanity has a huge problem, one that wasn't invented by AOC.

Attacking the idea doesn't sling mud at you or anything you said. Supporters of the green new deal recognize these are 50 year goals at best. They also recognize a climate proposal which focuses on too many other things that aren't climate initiatives, some of which aren't even problems, detracts from the importance of a climate proposal. The republicans did in fact make a mockery of climate change, AOC, and even the process of congressional voting. The purpose of the vote was to be divisive and make fools of the democrats, and the green new deal open the door to allow that. Maybe the democrats should have called their bluff and voted yes and looked foolish, but they want their party to win the next election so their reaction of protest was the smartest thing to do. It may not even be AOC's fault; maybe she was set up by her party, sent to the front lines to catch a hail of bullets, so then someone more experienced who can't be mocked as an economic illiterate can some along afterwards and propose something more realistic. That's why I said from the beginning, it's an immature daydream, but at least now the pressure is on for someone to better. But holy crap, jack said the green new deal is unrealistic and immature, so let's twist her words, because the logical conclusion is climate denial and doing nothing is mature. It's always someone else's responsibility other than Jack's. Go ahead and defend that. I don't mind being talked down to if the person at least offers something else along with it to contribute to the conversation, then that allows me something else to respond to. If that continues to happen, then you and I can carry on talking.

I'll maintain that it's not immature and it's not a daydream. I also don't think it's a setup. It's idealistic, absolutely, but I'd rather not focus on what to me seems like a conspiracy theory.

If one single person had voted for it, then I'd believe it was really what anyone wanted. It actually makes more sense AOC knows exactly what she's doing too. I have no doubt the democrats will use the environment as a heavy platform for the next presidential election. It has a lot of public support, and the green party never wins anyway so there's nothing wrong with dipping into their voters, but they're probably not going to go full Jill Stein Green New Deal about it because they want to win. Though maybe this whirlwind all happened with no foresight from anyone at all and the democrats allowed a newbie with three months of political experience to come in a crap on their platform. It's interesting that Ed Markey isn't weathering this storm along with AOC, no lash back at all, little to say about it, and no one talking about him.

[Jack]

Saw something on the news today which gave this a different perspective. While absolutely believing politicians conspire to manipulate the public, the democrats may simply be very disorganized at the moment. The news included a video of Obama's recent speech, warning the democrats against forming what he called circular firing squads, weakening the group by attacking allies and failing to work together. The reporter said right now there are such a large number of potential presidential candidates, democrats are too busy attacking democrats, and it's as if they're trying to out liberal each other. He said if they continue down that path it could very well backfire by erring too far to into the extreme. He cited some recent study which showed the majority of democrats simply want the party to run someone who can beat Trump; they don't care who it is or what the issues are, just beat Trump, so that means the democrats most need a moderate candidate who can capture non-partisans, and even republican voters from the other side. It doesn't seem to be working out that way at the moment. I don't know why the democrats have an extremist squawking as their voice right now, so maybe it's hopeful thinking there's some intelligent plan behind it.

[Gopher Gary]

Way to kill the thread, Jack. 

I'll sling mud with you guys. So which one of you commie pseudo-tree huggers is going to pay for my new electric car?  I'm little so I wont mind one of those teeny tiny ones that's the least expensive.

You get a clear plastic ball and will love it.

Come on man, I can't travel long distances in that. It doesn't even have to be a new electric car, I'd settle for a used one. I'm totally willing to compromise for the sake of the environment. 

[Minister Of Silly Walks]

Closer to carbon neutral than an electric car.

[Gopher Gary]

Oh no, I can't ride a bicycle.  The repetitive motion triggers a horrible nerve pain in my outer right thigh. Besides, I'm way too pretty for that much work, and I've got sugarbutt with me and he's so decrepit he needs one of those scooter baskets in the stores. Oh hey, you could buy me and sugarbutt a pair of matching electric scooter baskets. 
I don't know what the range is on those things, but there's an old lady with one that lives near me and she gets all over the place with hers. 

[Calandale]

Way to kill the thread, Jack. 

I'll sling mud with you guys. So which one of you commie pseudo-tree huggers is going to pay for my new electric car?  I'm little so I wont mind one of those teeny tiny ones that's the least expensive.

You get a clear plastic ball and will love it.

Come on man, I can't travel long distances in that. It doesn't even have to be a new electric car, I'd settle for a used one. I'm totally willing to compromise for the sake of the environment. 

You'd just chew the wires and it wouldn't work.

[odeon]

Saw something on the news today which gave this a different perspective. While absolutely believing politicians conspire to manipulate the public, the democrats may simply be very disorganized at the moment. The news included a video of Obama's recent speech, warning the democrats against forming what he called circular firing squads, weakening the group by attacking allies and failing to work together. The reporter said right now there are such a large number of potential presidential candidates, democrats are too busy attacking democrats, and it's as if they're trying to out liberal each other. He said if they continue down that path it could very well backfire by erring too far to into the extreme. He cited some recent study which showed the majority of democrats simply want the party to run someone who can beat Trump; they don't care who it is or what the issues are, just beat Trump, so that means the democrats most need a moderate candidate who can capture non-partisans, and even republican voters from the other side. It doesn't seem to be working out that way at the moment. I don't know why the democrats have an extremist squawking as their voice right now, so maybe it's hopeful thinking there's some intelligent plan behind it.

Look at what they're doing to Joe Biden. If this is their idea of beating Trump in 2020 (assuming that he isn't impeached before that), they need to think again.

I mean, yes, Biden's a bit off with that kind of behaviour but he's not Harvey fucking Weinstein.

[Jack]

Saw something on the news today which gave this a different perspective. While absolutely believing politicians conspire to manipulate the public, the democrats may simply be very disorganized at the moment. The news included a video of Obama's recent speech, warning the democrats against forming what he called circular firing squads, weakening the group by attacking allies and failing to work together. The reporter said right now there are such a large number of potential presidential candidates, democrats are too busy attacking democrats, and it's as if they're trying to out liberal each other. He said if they continue down that path it could very well backfire by erring too far to into the extreme. He cited some recent study which showed the majority of democrats simply want the party to run someone who can beat Trump; they don't care who it is or what the issues are, just beat Trump, so that means the democrats most need a moderate candidate who can capture non-partisans, and even republican voters from the other side. It doesn't seem to be working out that way at the moment. I don't know why the democrats have an extremist squawking as their voice right now, so maybe it's hopeful thinking there's some intelligent plan behind it.

Look at what they're doing to Joe Biden. If this is their idea of beating Trump in 2020 (assuming that he isn't impeached before that), they need to think again.

I mean, yes, Biden's a bit off with that kind of behaviour but he's not Harvey fucking Weinstein.

The US laughed for eight years at jokes about creepy grandpa Biden grabbing and sniffing everyone, so haven't gotten the impression the public are too riled up about it. Do think Biden could have won the last election, now not so much.