Trump pulls out of Syria, forces "Mad Dog" Mattis to resign.

[Al Swearegen]

Early Christmas present for Putin.

Money well spent.

....and no sense was made

[Calandale]

I remember in Bush's term that all of us on the Left said we wanted America to stop picking fights in the Middle East and how it was not our fight.

It wasn't. And it was stupid as shit - because there's no good way out.

The cheeto shows a terrible choice though.

[benjimanbreeg]

Early Christmas present for Putin.

Money well spent.

Enough of the 'Russiagate' conspiracy theory.  If you think that Russia affected the result via $4700 of Google ads then just    There's zero evidence that Putin gave Trump money. 

But just prepare to look very silly

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/19/mueller-investigation-findings-914754

[Walkie]

Is this America's war? If so why?

The short  (and honorable) answer would be Islamist terrorism.

I'm sure they have plenty of totally shabby motivations as well,  though, as  usual.

There's an argument that  USA involvement in the Middle East has functioned more as a cause than a cure. I don't doubt that, but that's historical. Here and now, in the UK at least, the general feeling is of shock that Trump  should pull out of a job that's clearly not finished, together with concern for the fate of the Kurds now they've lost US backing.

This report from al-Jazeera is prertty much in line with  UK news reports:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/syria-battle-isil-pullout-plan-181220065940371.html

Personally, I'm pretty much a pacifist, but have to accept that the argument that  ISIS need putting down is every bit as strong. IMO, as the argument that the Nazis needed putting down.  i.e. War , in this instance, might well constitute the lesser evil.

[odeon]

Early Christmas present for Putin.

Money well spent.

Enough of the 'Russiagate' conspiracy theory.  If you think that Russia affected the result via $4700 of Google ads then just    There's zero evidence that Putin gave Trump money. 

But just prepare to look very silly

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/19/mueller-investigation-findings-914754

Benji dear, you still have reading comprehension issues. I didn't say Putin gave Trump money.

[odeon]

Early Christmas present for Putin.

Money well spent.

....and no sense was made

Considering your other posts on the subject, I can see that you'd think so.

[Calandale]

Is this America's war? If so why?

The short  (and honorable) answer would be Islamist terrorism.

If we weren't injecting ourselves into the Near East, there wouldn't be an Islamic terror threat in the West.

[Walkie]

If we weren't injecting ourselves into the Near East, there wouldn't be an Islamic terror threat in the West.

True, but one can say that if you stir up a hornets nest, then you have some responsibility for the consequences.  Stirring up the nest then running away is more like the action of some malevolent little kid.  What;s more  (and again from a British perspective) we have enough home-grown Islamists over here  that extricating ourselves from the problem just by running away from it is pretty much impossible.

(By the way, note that  I'm using the term  "Islamist" not "Islamic" . I do think it's  important to respect that distinction. Not all Muslims are Islamists, thank goodness) )

[Al Swearegen]

Is this America's war? If so why?

The short  (and honorable) answer would be Islamist terrorism.

I'm sure they have plenty of totally shabby motivations as well,  though, as  usual.

There's an argument that  USA involvement in the Middle East has functioned more as a cause than a cure. I don't doubt that, but that's historical. Here and now, in the UK at least, the general feeling is of shock that Trump  should pull out of a job that's clearly not finished, together with concern for the fate of the Kurds now they've lost US backing.

This report from al-Jazeera is prertty much in line with  UK news reports:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/12/syria-battle-isil-pullout-plan-181220065940371.html

Personally, I'm pretty much a pacifist, but have to accept that the argument that  ISIS need putting down is every bit as strong. IMO, as the argument that the Nazis needed putting down.  i.e. War , in this instance, might well constitute the lesser evil.

Yup, that actually is a decent counter-argument but i am afraid that in my mind it is just a way of perpetuating a war.

See in my way of thinking, there is always going to be a situation in which there are terrorists and Authoritarian regimes and human rights issues in the Middle East. There is always going to be a "good reason" to stay in the Middle East if we are looking for one. We would like their laws, attitudes and mores to align with ours and we want them to adopt ours as theirs.

There is always a reason to continue the war you are in. Kill the top three leaders in ISIS now previous the 4th, 5th and 6th highest ranked members have become the top three leaders. Wipe out 80% and you still have 20% left and those numbers will rise with heavy recruitment.There is always another battle to fight.

The idea that some America President had reasons good or ill to go in, doesnt mean that a different President should stay for staying's sake.

Not that it should be an off the cuff decision or flippant. But America is not obliged to be there because they are there now

[Al Swearegen]

Early Christmas present for Putin.

Money well spent.

Enough of the 'Russiagate' conspiracy theory.  If you think that Russia affected the result via $4700 of Google ads then just    There's zero evidence that Putin gave Trump money. 

But just prepare to look very silly

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/19/mueller-investigation-findings-914754

Benji dear, you still have reading comprehension issues. I didn't say Putin gave Trump money.

No, Benji is right.
Russiagate is bullshit and was from the get go. Trump was not influenced by nor conspired with Putin and those still throw this around for consideration are disingenuous at best.

There were many reasons Trump won but Russian interference was hardly one of them. Russians did interfere no more than and no more severely than they have any other election since the cold war. This Russia colluded with Trump to steal the election or Trump is Putin's puppet or Hillary would have won if not for Putin, is misinformed at best.

[Al Swearegen]

If we weren't injecting ourselves into the Near East, there wouldn't be an Islamic terror threat in the West.

True, but one can say that if you stir up a hornets nest, then you have some responsibility for the consequences.  Stirring up the nest then running away is more like the action of some malevolent little kid.  What;s more  (and again from a British perspective) we have enough home-grown Islamists over here  that extricating ourselves from the problem just by running away from it is pretty much impossible.

(By the way, note that  I'm using the term  "Islamist" not "Islamic" . I do think it's  important to respect that distinction. Not all Muslims are Islamists, thank goodness) )

Thankfully most of us here know the difference.

[Jack]

If we weren't injecting ourselves into the Near East, there wouldn't be an Islamic terror threat in the West.

True, but one can say that if you stir up a hornets nest, then you have some responsibility for the consequences.  Stirring up the nest then running away is more like the action of some malevolent little kid.  What;s more  (and again from a British perspective) we have enough home-grown Islamists over here  that extricating ourselves from the problem just by running away from it is pretty much impossible.

(By the way, note that  I'm using the term  "Islamist" not "Islamic" . I do think it's  important to respect that distinction. Not all Muslims are Islamists, thank goodness) )

This makes me think of something recently said, about the possible future path of the US taking a more passive role in world leadership, and how that makes some countries nervous because they might have to take on more responsibility instead of privately supporting the US while publicly sneering about how the US should mind its own business. Trump didn't make this decision on his own, and it's hopefully the direction the US will be taking with or without him.

[Jack]

When you are criticising ending wars you have lost your minds.

Welcome back.

[Calandale]

If we weren't injecting ourselves into the Near East, there wouldn't be an Islamic terror threat in the West.

True, but one can say that if you stir up a hornets nest, then you have some responsibility for the consequences.  Stirring up the nest then running away is more like the action of some malevolent little kid.

Which would make sense, if we had a coherent, stable stance. But, democracies are inherently victims
of multiple personality disorder, and shouldn't be trusted. Which is part of why Hitler had an easier
time finding allies in WWII than the Allies did, early on.

[Calandale]

Early Christmas present for Putin.

Money well spent.

Enough of the 'Russiagate' conspiracy theory.  If you think that Russia affected the result via $4700 of Google ads then just    There's zero evidence that Putin gave Trump money. 

But just prepare to look very silly

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/19/mueller-investigation-findings-914754

Benji dear, you still have reading comprehension issues. I didn't say Putin gave Trump money.

No, Benji is right.

Nope. Odeon wrote something that could be misconstrued, but seems more
likely to be as he represented it.

Russiagate is bullshit and was from the get go. Trump was not influenced by nor conspired with Putin and those still throw this around for consideration are disingenuous at best.

There are some VERY odd situations surrounding the CiC campaign, if this is the case. Clearly, there was some element
of collusion, but the question is whether it violates more than the Logan Act. Which would still be illegal...but.
All the same, both Nixon and Reagan were elected after having committed more questionable acts, with regard
to foreign dealing. Seems to be a part of the Republican playbook.

On the other hand, so long as he's so clearly in violation of the fucking Emoluments Clause, none of this
really matters. I mean, this shit is core to the concept that the founders had of corruption. How any
of those who respect the originalist view can stomach this is so beyond me - except that they too are
corrupt to the core. Not sure why they hate Make Pastey so much.