No Spanking Laws

[bodie]

I do 


It would be very confusing for a child who has been hit at home,  to then get in trouble if they go to school and hit another child.  How do you explain that to them?  Who could blame them for coming away with the idea that big people get to hit smaller people.

Also i have never understood the human rights side of it.  Civilised society has more or less unilaterally agreed that hitting others is bad.   As a result laws and rights have been put into place.  Have issues with someone? talk, see a solicitor, call the old bill do a variety of things but we don't hit each other..right!  This is true for men, women, couples, strangers,  so why is it not always extended to children?

[Al Swearegen]

I do 


It would be very confusing for a child who has been hit at home,  to then get in trouble if they go to school and hit another child.  How do you explain that to them?  Who could blame them for coming away with the idea that big people get to hit smaller people.

Also i have never understood the human rights side of it.  Civilised society has more or less unilaterally agreed that hitting others is bad.   As a result laws and rights have been put into place.  Have issues with someone? talk, see a solicitor, call the old bill do a variety of things but we don't hit each other..right!  This is true for men, women, couples, strangers,  so why is it not always extended to children?

Oh "hitting"? Or smacking or are you kinda lumping , smacking bottoms, Punching neighbours the fuck out, controlled smack in return for them being naughty and unbridled smashing shit out of others?
Kinda sounds like you are lumping them in together? No?

My kids did not hit other kids that were smaller, or even each other.
What they did learn though is that when they were too young to be reasoned with or accept or respond to punishment...they came to understand boundaries and cause and effect. They came to associate that being naughty, nasty, mean, inappropriate would get a reaction they did not like.

When they were older they could be effectively growled at or have things taken away or have time out or whatever.

Worked for me and them.

[bodie]

Smacking, slapping, punching  -  aren't they just different degrees of hitting.   Yes i am lumping them together as a group of actions that deliberately cause hurt.

My kids did not hit other kids that were smaller, or even each other.

I wish.  My kid lashed out at people regardless of age or size as soon as he was able.  He is a hair yanker too.  It bloody hurts.  One time i reacted by grabbing his hair and i have never felt so guilty in all my life.  I have never done it since.

What they did learn though is that when they were too young to be reasoned with or accept or respond to punishment...they came to understand boundaries and cause and effect. They came to associate that being naughty, nasty, mean, inappropriate would get a reaction they did not like.

When they were older they could be effectively growled at or have things taken away or have time out or whatever.

Sounds like they were quite young when they became able to be reasoned with.  What about kids that never reach that stage?   

As you say you can 'growl' at them now, i assume you do not hit them anymore.  It sounds like you have been reasonable and used it only when necessary and with minimum force. Sounds fair enough and reasonable.  Here in UK we have a law that says you can be prosecuted if you leave any mark on your child such as a bruise or a cut.  That seems quite  reasonable too, as a smack on the botty or a slap on the legs is unlikely to do this and has probably been done as a short, sharp, shock rather than to cause real hurt or pain.

From the childs POV  they will learn that you can hit people who are smaller than you!

I don't think so

When i  said this i probably should have worded it as  "Children who spend their childhood being subject to slaps, smacks and hits and who effectively 'grow up' around hitting......etc"   My reasoning comes from the statistics showing abused children are more likely to grow up and abuse children themselves.  Now i don't understand this.  Why? I sure as hell would not want to do that to anyone if i had suffered its effect myself, but it appears to be the case. Monkey see monkey do.  So from this i assume that if a child has grown up around hitting then they are more likely to see it as an available tool and use it.

[Al Swearegen]

Is smacking a child on the bottom the same as belting them with a cord or a rod or baseball bat perhaps?
"aren't they just different degrees of hitting.   Yes i am lumping them together as a group of actions that deliberately cause hurt"
Stabbing people deliberately causes hurt too, maybe....

Nah lets not even go there Bodie.

I think maybe 5 for them both. It is not to say that the were great at forward planning or makers of great choices but even at this age they were able to understand things a bit better and listen to instructions. The incentives around doing the right thing too were starting to sink in. Again it was beginning stuff but still.

My kids are 12 and 16? Did you think I would still be smacking their bottoms for being naughty?

I do not see a reason to keep smacking children once you are able to growl at them or to be creative in punishments. The last time I growled at my boy was about 6 months ago. He lost his MA movies privileges. He understands this. I also told him off and explained why what he did was rude and completely out of line. He is a teenager...meh.

Little kids don't understand this kind of thing but they want to have boundaries and it is a hard thing to manage.

Leaving bruises on kids? I don't think that is needed or nice and I think that was smack bottom should hurt about as long as the problem. (ie smack bottom and sent to room in tears. 5 minutes later quiet again. 5 minutes later door creaks open and child says "Sorry Daddy". Child up on lap and cuddled and congratulated for apologising. No reason for bruising or lacerations. In fact by the time the child has decided to apologise the need for a sore bottom is at an end.)

[bodie]

Lots and lots of children get smacked and it continues until they leave home.  A lad i went to school with faced this.  As he got older the hitting progressed and his Dad was hitting him with a belt when we started senior school.  I didn't finish senior school as he was taken into care and moved away.  It's a sad story as i heard he is doing a long stretch in prison now. 

My point is that lots of parents haven't got the gumption to come up with creative ways to punish their children.  Lots of parents don't think reasonably.  Lots of kids live in fear.  Lots of kids get abused.

Learning boundaries is important.  Some kids will also learn other things too, like fear.  Like it's ok to hit someone as long as you are bigger/older/have a good reason, can validate it somehow.

Is smacking a child on the bottom the same as belting them with a cord or a rod or baseball bat perhaps?
"aren't they just different degrees of hitting.   Yes i am lumping them together as a group of actions that deliberately cause hurt"
Stabbing people deliberately causes hurt too, maybe....

Nah lets not even go there Bodie.

Are you saying that they are not a group of actions that deliberately cause hurt?  Or do you just not like the fact that there are two ends of that scale and because you stayed at the lower end you don't want any association with the harsher ones?  They can cross over,  and they do.  One persons idea of a good smack could be another persons idea of a good beating, or a hiding.   For that reason i have decided that i won't dabble in punishments that cause physical hurt or pain.  If i am going to be asking  him 'not' to hit others then i feel i will have the moral high ground if i can say "you don't see mommy  or daddy hurting people"

I want my kid to learn right from wrong, yes,  but not through hitting.

[El-Presidente]

I love a good spanking myself. 

[Al Swearegen]

Lots and lots of children get smacked and it continues until they leave home.  A lad i went to school with faced this.  As he got older the hitting progressed and his Dad was hitting him with a belt when we started senior school.  I didn't finish senior school as he was taken into care and moved away.  It's a sad story as i heard he is doing a long stretch in prison now. 

My point is that lots of parents haven't got the gumption to come up with creative ways to punish their children.  Lots of parents don't think reasonably.  Lots of kids live in fear.  Lots of kids get abused.

Learning boundaries is important.  Some kids will also learn other things too, like fear.  Like it's ok to hit someone as long as you are bigger/older/have a good reason, can validate it somehow.

Is smacking a child on the bottom the same as belting them with a cord or a rod or baseball bat perhaps?
"aren't they just different degrees of hitting.   Yes i am lumping them together as a group of actions that deliberately cause hurt"
Stabbing people deliberately causes hurt too, maybe....

Nah lets not even go there Bodie.

Are you saying that they are not a group of actions that deliberately cause hurt?  Or do you just not like the fact that there are two ends of that scale and because you stayed at the lower end you don't want any association with the harsher ones?  They can cross over,  and they do.  One persons idea of a good smack could be another persons idea of a good beating, or a hiding.   For that reason i have decided that i won't dabble in punishments that cause physical hurt or pain.  If i am going to be asking  him 'not' to hit others then i feel i will have the moral high ground if i can say "you don't see mommy  or daddy hurting people"

I want my kid to learn right from wrong, yes,  but not through hitting.

YES Bodie. I will happily encourage yanking a child physically of a road if a they are unmindful of a car coming, or smacking their hands to get them to drop something sharp or otherwise dangerous. Yes that will hurt a child. Deliberately. Scar them for life, be akin to beating them, set a bad precedent? No. I don't think you or any decent person with a brain would believe any of these things needing justification or needing comparisons to to child abuse to make some exaggerated point.

Smacking a bottom of a child for doing something that they have done wrong likewise is not reasonably compared to the above and trying to make a slippery sloped argument for a smacked bottom being all in with beatings or leading to beatings or that, looks to me a little incredulous.

It sounds to me that you think of smacks on the bottom,  as child abuse and that it is all in the same league as beatings. I disagree completely. It sounds to me that you are saying anyone who therefore has smacked a child is a child abuser. I again disagree and regardless of how you try to pitch the allusion, it is not going to make me second guess myself or feel bad. If this is true, I hope not as I would have thought you were a little less judgmental.

You did not smack your boy ever? I do not really have a comment either way? You know why? I don't know what you are like as a parent and I think it would be rude as fuck to presume based on nothing about what you are as a Mother. I understand you love him and I think that is good. I presume because you are a nice, caring lady and Mother, you will do the right thing by him. I think you will be the best parent you can be. When he is older I am sure he will love you as much as he does now.

So rather than dancing around the point. Looks like we have differing opinions on parenting and parenting styles. Looks like we both have good relationships with our kids. Looks like we both have kids who have responded well and are well behaved and sweet and do us proud. So do you have anything to say about the above in respect to me and me as a parent?

[bodie]

Oh dear,  Can't we debate an issue without getting personal and putting words in my mouth.

I have grabbed kids from the road.  I have wrestled with and pinned down my boy to avoid him hurting himself, others and myself.  Where did i make a correlation between physical restraint and child abuse?  Perhaps you misread, or perhaps i wasn't clear, either way i make no such opinion.

I thought we were debating smacking kids,  the actions described above are about restraint in order to  preserve safety.  Therefore it is quite  unnecessary for you to demonstrate how it won't scar and hurt a child for life.  I KNOW THIS.

It sounds to me that you think of smacks on the bottom,  as child abuse and that it is all in the same league as beatings. I disagree completely. It sounds to me that you are saying anyone who therefore has smacked a child is a child abuser. I again disagree and regardless of how you try to pitch the allusion, it is not going to make me second guess myself or feel bad. If this is true, I hope not as I would have thought you were a little less judgmental.

  Can you show me where i said this?  or what i said that led you to such an assumtion?  Where did i say anyone who smacks a child is a child abuser?

You did not smack your boy ever? I do not really have a comment either way? You know why? I don't know what you are like as a parent and I think it would be rude as fuck to presume based on nothing about what you are as a Mother. I understand you love him and I think that is good. I presume because you are a nice, caring lady and Mother, you will do the right thing by him. I think you will be the best parent you can be. When he is older I am sure he will love you as much as he does now.

Thank you.  I have already said that i think you are good parent.  Everything that you have described in the way of discipline seems very reasonable and there is nothing you have said which  has made me think you are anything other than a decent, caring and loving father.

So rather than dancing around the point.

I dance around lots of points.  Don't you?   

Looks like we have differing opinions on parenting and parenting styles. Looks like we both have good relationships with our kids.

Indeed.  The world would be very boring if we all had the same opinion. 

Looks like we both have kids who have responded well and are well behaved and sweet and do us proud.

Ouch!  I think everyone knows that my son is up shit creek at school and is not always well behaved and sweet.  I am always proud of him, though.  I will persist with my parenting style.  This debate has not thrown anything to cause me to change my mind.

So do you have anything to say about the above in respect to me and me as a parent?

No. I have no bitchy comments to make like the one above.


 

[bodie]

I love a good spanking myself. 

[El-Presidente]

I love a good spanking myself. 

  

[Al Swearegen]

Oh dear,  Can't we debate an issue without getting personal and putting words in my mouth.

I have grabbed kids from the road.  I have wrestled with and pinned down my boy to avoid him hurting himself, others and myself.  Where did i make a correlation between physical rqestraint and child abuse?  Perhaps you misread, or perhaps i wasn't clear, either way i make no such opinion.

I thought we were debating smacking kids,  the actions described above are about restraint in order to  preserve safety.  Therefore it is quite  unnecessary for you to demonstrate how it won't scar and hurt a child for life.  I KNOW THIS.

It sounds to me that you think of smacks on the bottom,  as child abuse and that it is all in the same league as beatings. I disagree completely. It sounds to me that you are saying anyone who therefore has smacked a child is a child abuser. I again disagree and regardless of how you try to pitch the allusion, it is not going to make me second guess myself or feel bad. If this is true, I hope not as I would have thought you were a little less judgmental.

  Can you show me where i said this?  or what i said that led you to such an assumtion?  Where did i say anyone who smacks a child is a child abuser?

You did not smack your boy ever? I do not really have a comment either way? You know why? I don't know what you are like as a parent and I think it would be rude as fuck to presume based on nothing about what you are as a Mother. I understand you love him and I think that is good. I presume because you are a nice, caring lady and Mother, you will do the right thing by him. I think you will be the best parent you can be. When he is older I am sure he will love you as much as he does now.

Thank you.  I have already said that i think you are good parent.  Everything that you have described in the way of discipline seems very reasonable and there is nothing you have said which  has made me think you are anything other than a decent, caring and loving father.

So rather than dancing around the point.

I dance around lots of points.  Don't you?   

Looks like we have differing opinions on parenting and parenting styles. Looks like we both have good relationships with our kids.

Indeed.  The world would be very boring if we all had the same opinion. 

Looks like we both have kids who have responded well and are well behaved and sweet and do us proud.

Ouch!  I think everyone knows that my son is up shit creek at school and is not always well behaved and sweet.  I am always proud of him, though.  I will persist with my parenting style.  This debate has not thrown anything to cause me to change my mind.

So do you have anything to say about the above in respect to me and me as a parent?

No. I have no bitchy comments to make like the one above.

Actually every child has some problem at school at some point, because school is shitty. . I remember one thread about a year ago where you had some issues and my recollection is that you found some effective strategies to resolving them.
Find the thread to see what I mean.
It is interesting what you think "everybody" knows. I do not second guess. You say he is a dear little boy and you resolved some issues at school with positive reinforcement I  assumed you had back then, a year ago. Unless I am informed otherwise, I don't second guess. "Bodie had some issues then that she.seemed to straighten out through relying on his want to be a good boy therefore.."

By all means though you can explain bitchy to me, as I can't see what you see in my comments

As for taking things personally. When I tell you that I stopped smacking my kids bottoms when they were about five and had you  say "You assume I still don't", why assume? When you further tell of some Father who smack his teenged kid's bottoms (but doesn't really because he hits them with a belt) and when you know that I smacked my kids bottoms when they were little and you say " isn't all the same as other forms of deliberately hurting them?", I am amazed you would expect I do not take it personally as an insult. I assume that was your intent.

The only irony is I was trying to be nice in return and say different strokes for different folks and you saw it as me being bitchy

[El]

It's interesting how social norms changed our perceptions.  What was 'normal' even a generation or two ago (more or less depending on one's specific culture) is now considered abusive.  Go farther back and it's more intense.  Ever read the "Little house" books?  Very wholesome.  About very loving families.  Children's books, and ones I would honestly recommend for kids, wholeheartedly.  And yet, the books talk about hitting children with switches and whips.

What I'll say is, from what I've seen (and, what I've experienced), yes, there's lines, and yes, there's gray areas.  However, what seems to be the biggest dividing line between whether or not it's actually experienced as traumatic, is how it's implemented, and what the overall family culture is.  A loving and supportive family culture with clear expectations of rewards and punishments is much less likely to be viewed as traumatic as one which is cold, angry, chaotic, etc. and where punishment is handed out according to the moods of the punisher, not according to the behavior of the punishee.

Because of this, you sometimes get the interesting cases of people defending having had harsh physical punishments in what may well have been a healthy family environment, yet you get people who were given comparatively mild (or no) physical punishments in a very unhealthy family environment who were traumatized by the ways they were disciplined.  Which is of course not to advocate dangerous beatings or extreme physical punishments- or even to advocate spankings (I'm not sure how I feel about that practice, anymore, tbh, though I am less opposed to it now that I understand the bigger-context issue).  But, it's kind of interesting, I think.

Just my own somewhat-anecdotal $.02.

['andersom']

From the childs POV  they will learn that you can hit people who are smaller than you!

Once saw a mother "play" with her kid. Spanking play. She slapped the kid, not hard, no pain, but the movement was there. And the kid was supposed to like it. The moment the kid, a toddler, mimicked his mum, and did to her what she did to him, she told him he was not allowed to do that, because he was just a kid.




I turned out completely wild of course, because of lack of physical punishment. 
My kids will turn out just as feral.
Kids hurt themselves enough, when going in the wrong. No need to ad to that with a smack.

[BadgerTom]

Well, i've read a bit of this "debate" and am of the opinion that it didn't do me any bad so why not for my kids!? (when i have them that is!)

The best way my mum taught me how to behave involved a bar of soap! i tell you that after sucking on that for mere seconds i quickly learned to behave! and there was no smacking at all, until i got older and stronger, then i'd get a light smack if i was doing something particularly wrong (like abusing the neighbours cat! (Don't attempt to ask about that!)).

Although i believe that i am a generation behind in my thinking/reasoning i still think that what my parents did was right, i mean how else are you supposed to create boundaries if the little buggers can't intellectually understand/rationalise!?

However, i won't be "spanking" my kids, that activity will be for the (future!) missus, in the confines of the bedroom/kitchen!

[Al Swearegen]

From the childs POV  they will learn that you can hit people who are smaller than you!

Once saw a mother "play" with her kid. Spanking play. She slapped the kid, not hard, no pain, but the movement was there. And the kid was supposed to like it. The moment the kid, a toddler, mimicked his mum, and did to her what she did to him, she told him he was not allowed to do that, because he was just a kid.




I turned out completely wild of course, because of lack of physical punishment. 
My kids will turn out just as feral.
Kids hurt themselves enough, when going in the wrong. No need to ad to that with a smack.

My kids did not learn that lesson.
Nor did they turn out traumatised for it.
Nor did they pick on other kids on that basis.

So I am not sure, how them being the recipients of smacks on the bottom when they were naughty, relates to the above. It does not sound causal as it seems to be framed? Is it supposed to be?