No Spanking Laws

[BadgerTom]

Woo Saaa Folks... take 5 (hours!)

[bodie]

There are many studies involving smacking children.  Most of them report undesirable effects.
This article gives a few examples.
http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/legacyforum/legacyforum_home.cfm?&ForumID=1&fuseAction=displayMessage&messageID=73Previous generations had the excuse that there wasn't the abundance of information available to them that we have today.   

From the childs POV  they will learn that you can hit people who are smaller than you!

Once saw a mother "play" with her kid. Spanking play. She slapped the kid, not hard, no pain, but the movement was there. And the kid was supposed to like it. The moment the kid, a toddler, mimicked his mum, and did to her what she did to him, she told him he was not allowed to do that, because he was just a kid.




I turned out completely wild of course, because of lack of physical punishment. 
My kids will turn out just as feral.
Kids hurt themselves enough, when going in the wrong. No need to ad to that with a smack.

I think it makes it so much easier for a kid to understand that he shouldn't  hit his sister when you can say mommy and daddy don't hit you, or your sister, or each other.  In other words a blanket ban on hitting.  A no hitting policy.

[BadgerTom]

Agreed. Soap is better hehe!

[Al Swearegen]

There are many studies involving smacking children.  Most of them report undesirable effects.
This article gives a few examples.
http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/legacyforum/legacyforum_home.cfm?&ForumID=1&fuseAction=displayMessage&messageID=73Previous generations had the excuse that there wasn't the abundance of information available to them that we have today.   

From the childs POV  they will learn that you can hit people who are smaller than you!

Once saw a mother "play" with her kid. Spanking play. She slapped the kid, not hard, no pain, but the movement was there. And the kid was supposed to like it. The moment the kid, a toddler, mimicked his mum, and did to her what she did to him, she told him he was not allowed to do that, because he was just a kid.




I turned out completely wild of course, because of lack of physical punishment. 
My kids will turn out just as feral.
Kids hurt themselves enough, when going in the wrong. No need to ad to that with a smack.

I think it makes it so much easier for a kid to understand that he shouldn't  hit his sister when you can say mommy and daddy don't hit you, or your sister, or each other.  In other words a blanket ban on hitting.  A no hitting policy.

WE could of course make the same argument for:

not growling at them and thus risking self esteem
or not with holding affection as it may make them make bad associations with punishment and affection/attention
or scaring them from raising your voice and risk making them deathly afraid and traumatised
 or actually giving them good things when they are good even as they may learn to do something naughty to prompt a campaign of rewarding good behaviour
or withholding desired toys as it may influence stealing

....the sky is the limit really.

It may be argued that whilst all of these things may happen, it is unlikely. It may also be argued that by degrees matters.

Always yelling at them very loudly and badly....may well cause trauma
Withholding things constantly may make a child feel unloved and that you are cold
Maybe if all there valuables are constantly and unreasonably taken, they may steal or see no value in their possessions.

But all this is extreme. Hell if we were to take this approach then we have pretty much taken away parents ability to parent for fear that their parenting style will be used in the most inappropriate way and that they do not know their own child or be able to parent effectively.

Would be silly.

[Jack]

I turned out completely wild of course, because of lack of physical punishment. 
My kids will turn out just as feral.

Hey. You know Jack.

[El]

There are many studies involving smacking children.  Most of them report undesirable effects.
This article gives a few examples.
http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/legacyforum/legacyforum_home.cfm?&ForumID=1&fuseAction=displayMessage&messageID=73Previous generations had the excuse that there wasn't the abundance of information available to them that we have today.   

From the childs POV  they will learn that you can hit people who are smaller than you!

Once saw a mother "play" with her kid. Spanking play. She slapped the kid, not hard, no pain, but the movement was there. And the kid was supposed to like it. The moment the kid, a toddler, mimicked his mum, and did to her what she did to him, she told him he was not allowed to do that, because he was just a kid.




I turned out completely wild of course, because of lack of physical punishment. 
My kids will turn out just as feral.
Kids hurt themselves enough, when going in the wrong. No need to ad to that with a smack.

I think it makes it so much easier for a kid to understand that he shouldn't  hit his sister when you can say mommy and daddy don't hit you, or your sister, or each other.  In other words a blanket ban on hitting.  A no hitting policy.

Internal server error.

One problem I'll point out with spanking studies in general is the issue of confounding variables.  Ask yourself who is more vs. less likely to spank, or to use corporal punishment.  In general, parents with more time and resources are more likely to be able to use the more behavioral punishment/reward systems consistently, which require more time and patience, and (I believe/anecdotally have noticed) these also tend to be more heavily advocated higher-up in SES.

This isn't to say physical abuse doesn't fuck kids up, but demographics and life situations (which would in turn effect likelihood of use of corporal punishment) also effect kids- tremendously.

[TA]

Spanking was the subject of a discussion in the basic Psychology class I took to satisfy a social science requirement.

Spanking is punishment in the form of an aversive stimulus. Another form of punishment is to remove a positive stimulus, the example the professor gave was sitting his son on the back of the toilet and removing all towels and toilet paper from the bathroom and leaving the room (he said his son was around 5 when this technique was employed). He called the latter an example of playing mind games with your children. The discussion went on to cover the fact that any punishment does not completely stop a behavior, but only temporarily deters it.

[Scrapheap]

Kids?

Beat 'em 'till they're senseless.

[bodie]

Yes i see what you are saying Elle.

I went on a triple p parenting course in Jan and interestingly one of the things the tutor said was  "back in the days when we used to hit our children"   I just had a quick look and i can't find one course in the UK that advocates physical punishments like smacking.

The UN Human Rights Act promotes that children ought to have the same rights as adults, and that would mean a ban on smacking.

[BadgerTom]

That reminds me of the policies and procedures training i had in my last job. The guy said "On the subject of Abuse by the end of a care workers first year around 60% will have committed some form of abuse to clients in their care. Rising to 90% in five years." not a very comforting thought.

[bodie]

I am in favour of keeping spanking in the bedroom

[Al Swearegen]

Yes i see what you are saying Elle.

I went on a triple p parenting course in Jan and interestingly one of the things the tutor said was  "back in the days when we used to hit our children"   I just had a quick look and i can't find one course in the UK that advocates physical punishments like smacking.

The UN Human Rights Act promotes that children ought to have the same rights as adults, and that would mean a ban on smacking.

I see what you are saying. In the world 84% of the Earth's population have faith and of those at least 55% are believers in the Abrahamic God (32% are Christians and 23% are Muslims"

Therefore it follows that these people have a better belief system than anyone else.

OR it is an appeal to popularity. Just because something is popular or have strident followers of a practice or whatever, does not make the practice better or worse.

Same goes with raising a child, to an extent. We all have our lines in the sand. What was popular or normal back then may not be now and who knows where we will focus on with parenting in years to come. We may see ourselves then as more enlightened and today's practices wrong. So it is shifting lines in the sand.

I think if what you mean by this is that people in this course had an idea of how they wanted their kids bought up and that they wanted what was best for their kids and to give the best upbringing for their kids, then more power to them.

Is that what you were saying or was it something more?

[El]

Yes i see what you are saying Elle.

I went on a triple p parenting course in Jan and interestingly one of the things the tutor said was  "back in the days when we used to hit our children"   I just had a quick look and i can't find one course in the UK that advocates physical punishments like smacking.

The UN Human Rights Act promotes that children ought to have the same rights as adults, and that would mean a ban on smacking.

I see what you are saying. In the world 84% of the Earth's population have faith and of those at least 55% are believers in the Abrahamic God (32% are Christians and 23% are Muslims"

Therefore it follows that these people have a better belief system than anyone else.

OR it is an appeal to popularity. Just because something is popular or have strident followers of a practice or whatever, does not make the practice better or worse.

Same goes with raising a child, to an extent. We all have our lines in the sand. What was popular or normal back then may not be now and who knows where we will focus on with parenting in years to come. We may see ourselves then as more enlightened and today's practices wrong. So it is shifting lines in the sand.

I think if what you mean by this is that people in this course had an idea of how they wanted their kids bought up and that they wanted what was best for their kids and to give the best upbringing for their kids, then more power to them.

Is that what you were saying or was it something more?

*nod*  Another good point- what are we doing now with good intentions that we will, in retrospect, condemn?  I already talked in another thread about some of the well-meaning parenting practices that, IMO, have kinda pulled for fragile narcissism, though the intent was to show kids they were loved and help them have self-esteem.  Will these practices be widely condemned someday?

Yes i see what you are saying Elle.

I went on a triple p parenting course in Jan and interestingly one of the things the tutor said was  "back in the days when we used to hit our children"   I just had a quick look and i can't find one course in the UK that advocates physical punishments like smacking.

The UN Human Rights Act promotes that children ought to have the same rights as adults, and that would mean a ban on smacking.

One big problem with comparing children with adults in this case is that very small children don't have the processing/verbal/cognitive abilities that adults do.  You can, for example, enter into a verbal contract with an 11 year old that if he does not do his chores, he does not get his allowance (side note:  why the fuck do kids never have chores any more???), or that if he acts out, his video games are gone for a week.  Can you really hold a toddler to the same standard?

(Again, devil's advocate, not endorsing.)

[Al Swearegen]

Yes. Also, what is the intent? What is it that the parenting is supposed to do and what is it likely to do?

We live in a time of political correctness, overlegislated and overcensoring. In these times, unlike times of the past, we are less trusting, less accepting, less willing to allow people to determine a sensible or reasonable line of thought. Because some people in some situations make poor choices ,even when give enough information, skills or whatever to make a good choice, and so we legislate or put in place policy or procedures to censor or legislate the worst of people, who do not have brains or common sense

In schools they are now banned from hugging. Why/ Because "some people" can not discern a hug done platonically for something else so ban hugging entirely. It is the same with smacking a naughty child. Some people doing this will not have the common sense, judgement or whatever to do this responsibly or with good intent or effect. They will thrash their kids or beat them or whatever. So throw out the baby with the bathwater. No hugs. No smacks. Because some people are uncommonly stupid.

I don't know. I think a hug from a friend or girlfriend at school is kind of sweet. I think a teacher being able to sooth a crying child by giving them a gentle hug and so is fine. In a few years we may well report that back in the old days we used to hug and that all forms of "intimacy"....i mean hugs are just a varying degree of intimacy, is inappropriate to express in public and akin to having sex.

That argument will not win me either and i will claim that intellectually dishonest too.

[RageBeoulve]

Yes. Also, what is the intent? What is it that the parenting is supposed to do and what is it likely to do?

We live in a time of faggotry, bossiness and bitchiness. In these times, unlike times of the past, we are nosy as fuck, judgemental, tyrants. Because some people fuck up, even like.. once, some really obnoxious cunts will start a wave of shit tht annoys everyone so much they comply just for a moment's peace. An example of this is the behavior of atheism plusser, Richard cuntier.

In schools they are now banned from hugging. Why/ Because "some tyrannical cuts" are jealous of some kid being more successful socially than they are so ban hugging entirely. It is the same with smacking a naughty child. Some drunken redneck who belongs in prison will not have the common sense, judgement or whatever to do this responsibly or with good intent or effect. They will thrash their kids or beat them or whatever. So throw out the baby with the bathwater. No hugs. No smacks. Because some people were raised exactly like what these tyrants are trying to do to the entire world..

I don't know. I think a hug from a friend or girlfriend at school is kind of sweet. I think a teacher being able to sooth a crying child by giving them a gentle hug and so is fine. In a few years we may well report that back in the old days we used to hug and that all forms of "intimacy"....i mean hugs are just a varying degree of intimacy, is inappropriate to express in public and akin to having sex.

That argument will not win me either and i will claim that intellectually dishonest too.

Fixed. I agree now, man.