Author Topic: We are All Deplorables  (Read 675 times)

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Offline Walkie

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We are All Deplorables
« on: November 21, 2016, 07:44:02 PM »
I thought i'd do a "PMSElle" and quote a whole article in full, because the following article is so quotable IMO, that i wanted to quote about 90% of it's content, in relation to debates about Islam, Trump etc.  I think it a brilliant job of expressing what some us would regard as the real underlying issues. Hoping it will stimulate some constructive discussion...or, hmm, well, at least throw a bit of light on my own perspective, and otherwise provide a bit of food for thought.  Thanks to Benji, BTW, for putting me on to this writer.

Article by Chris Hedges found here

Quote
My relatives in Maine are deplorables. I cannot write on their behalf. I can write in their defense. They live in towns and villages that have been ravaged by deindustrialization. The bank in Mechanic Falls, where my grandparents lived, is boarded up, along with nearly every downtown store. The paper mill closed decades ago. There is a strip club in the center of the town. The jobs, at least the good ones, are gone. Many of my relatives and their neighbors work up to 70 hours a week at three minimum-wage jobs, without benefits, to make perhaps $35,000 a year. Or they have no jobs. They cannot afford adequate health coverage under the scam of Obamacare. Alcoholism is rampant in the region. Heroin addiction is an epidemic. Labs producing the street drug methamphetamine make up a cottage industry. Suicide is common. Domestic abuse and sexual assault destroy families. Despair and rage among the population have fueled an inchoate racism, homophobia and Islamophobia and feed the latent and ever present poison of white supremacy. They also nourish the magical thinking peddled by the con artists in the Christian right, the state lotteries that fleece the poor, and an entertainment industry that night after night shows visions of an America and a lifestyle on television screens—“The Apprentice” typified this—that foster unattainable dreams of wealth and celebrity.

Those who are cast aside as human refuse often have a psychological need for illusions and scapegoats. They desperately seek the promise of divine intervention. They unplug from a reality that is too hard to bear. They see in others, especially those who are different, the obstacles to their advancement and success. We must recognize and understand the profound despair that leads to these reactions. To understand these reactions is not to condone them.

The suffering of the white underclass is real. Its members struggle with humiliation and a crippling loss of self-worth and dignity. The last thing they need, or deserve, is politically correct thought police telling them what to say and think and condemning them as mutations of human beings.

Those cast aside by the neoliberal order have an economic identity that both the liberal class and the right wing are unwilling to acknowledge. This economic identity is one the white underclass shares with other discarded people, including the undocumented workers and the people of color demonized by the carnival barkers on cable news shows. This is an economic reality the power elites invest great energy in masking.

The self-righteousness of the liberal class, which revels in imagined tolerance and enlightenment while condemning the white underclass as irredeemable, widens the divide between white low-wage workers and urban elites. Liberals have no right to pass judgment on these so-called deplorables without acknowledging their pain. They must listen to their stories, which the corporate media shut out. They must offer solutions that provide the possibility of economic stability and self-respect.

Martin Luther King Jr. understood the downward spiral of hating those who hate you. “In a real sense all life is inter-related,” he wrote in “Letter From a Birmingham Jail.” “All men are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be, and you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. …”

We cannot battle the racism, bigotry and hate crimes that will be stoked by the Donald Trump presidency without first battling for economic justice. This is not a gap between the tolerant and the intolerant. It is a gap between most of the American population and our oligarchic and corporate elites, which Trump epitomizes. It is a gap that is understood only in the light of the demand for economic justice. And when we start to speak in the language of justice first, and the language of inclusiveness second, we will begin to blunt the protofascism being embraced by many Trump supporters.

I spent two years writing a book on the Christian right called “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.” I spent many months with dispossessed white workers in states such as Missouri, Kansas, Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and California. I carried into the book project all the prejudices that come with being raised in the liberal church—a disdain for a magic Jesus who answers your prayers and makes you rich, a repugnance at the rejection of rationality and science and at the literal interpretation of the Bible, a horror of the sacralization of the American empire, and a revulsion against the racism, misogyny, homophobia, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism and blind intolerance that often afflict those who retreat into a binary world of good and evil.

Those enthralled by such thinking are Christian heretics—Jesus did not come to make us rich and powerful and bless America’s empire—and potential fascists. They have fused the iconography and symbols of the American state with the iconography and symbols of the Christian religion. They believe they can create a “Christian” America. The American flag is given the same sacred value as the Christian cross. The Pledge of Allegiance has the religious power of the Lord’s Prayer. That a sleazy developer and con artist was chosen as their vehicle—81 percent of evangelicals voted for Trump—for achieving this goal is startling, to say the least. But this is not a reality-based movement. Most of those who profit from this culture of despair, many wrapped in the halo of the ministry, are, like Trump, slick, amoral trolls.

My view of the tens of millions of Americans who have fallen into the embrace of the Christian right’s magical thinking underwent a profound change as I conducted interviews for the book. During that time I did what good reporters do: I listened. And the stories I heard were heartbreaking. I grew to like many of these people. The communities they lived in, many of which I visited, looked like the towns where my family lived in Maine. They were terrified of the future, especially for their children. They struggled with feelings of worthlessness and abandonment. I fear the Christianized fascism in which they enshroud themselves, but I also see them as its pawns.

They hate a secular world they see as destroying them. They long for the apocalyptic visions of Tim LaHaye’s “Left Behind” series. They want the cruelty and rot of “secular humanism” to be obliterated before they and their families are lifted into heaven by the rapture (an event never mentioned in the Bible).

I finished my book with a deep dislike for megachurch pastors who, like Trump, manipulate despair to achieve power and wealth. I see the Christian right as a serious threat to an open society. But I do not hate those who desperately cling to this emotional life raft, even as they spew racist venom. Their conclusion that minorities, undocumented workers or Muslims are responsible for their impoverishment is part of the retreat into fantasy. The only way we will blunt this racism and hatred and allow them to free themselves from the grip of magical thinking is by providing jobs that offer adequate incomes and economic stability and by restoring their communities and the primacy of the common good. Any other approach will fail. We will not argue or scold them out of their beliefs. These people are emotionally incapable of coping with the world as it is. If we demonize them we demonize ourselves.

Arlie Russell Hochschild’s book “Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right” in story after story makes clear that members of the white underclass are also victims and deserve our empathy.

The liberal class has no hope of defeating the rise of American fascism until it unites with the dispossessed white working class. It has no hope of being an effective force in politics until it articulates a viable socialism. Corporate capitalism cannot be regulated, reformed or corrected. A socialist movement dedicated to demolishing the cruelty of the corporate state will do more to curb the racism of the white underclass than lessons by liberals in moral purity. Preaching multiculturalism and gender and identity politics will not save us from the rising sadism in American society. It will only fuel the anti-politics that has replaced politics.

Liberals have sprinkled academic, corporate, media and political institutions with men and women of different races and religions. This has done nothing to protect the majority of marginalized people who live in conditions that are worse than those that existed when King marched on Selma. It is boutique activism. It is about branding, not justice.

Murray Bookchin excoriated the irrelevancy of a liberal class that busied itself with “the numbing quietude of the polling booth, the deadening platitudes of petition campaigns, car[-]bumper sloganeering, the contradictory rhetoric of manipulative politicians, the spectator sports of public rallies and finally, the knee-bent humble pleas for small reforms—in short the mere shadows of the direct action, embattled commitment, insurgent conflicts, and social idealism that marked every revolutionary project in history.”

Human history, as Bookchin and Karl Marx understood, is defined by class struggle. America’s corporate elites successfully fused the two major political parties into a single corporate party, one that seized control of electoral politics, internal security, the judiciary, universities, the arts, finance and nearly all forms of popular communication, including Hollywood, public relations and the press. There is no way within the system to defy the demands of Wall Street, the fossil fuel industry or war profiteers. And Trump is about to remove whatever tepid restraints are left.

Oswald Spengler in “The Decline of the West” predicted that, as Western democracies calcified and died, a class of “monied thugs,” people such as Trump, would replace the traditional political elites. Democracy would become a sham. Hatred would be fostered and fed to the masses to encourage them to tear themselves apart.

The only route left is revolt. If this revolt is to succeed it must be expressed in the language of economic justice. A continuation of the language of multiculturalism and identity politics as our primary means of communication is self-defeating. It stokes the culture wars. It feeds the anti-politics that define the corporate state.

“The heirs of the New Left of the Sixties have created, within the academy, a cultural Left,” Richard Rorty wrote. “Many members of this Left specialize in what they call the ‘politics of difference’ or ‘of identity’ or ‘of recognition.’ This cultural Left thinks more about stigma than about money, more about deep and hidden psychosexual motivations than about shallow and evident greed.”

Our enemy is not the white working poor any more than it is African-Americans, undocumented workers, Muslims, Latinos or members of the GBLT community. The oligarchs and corporations, many of them proponents of political correctness, are our enemy. If we shed our self-righteousness and hubris, if we speak to the pain and suffering of the working poor, we will unmask the toxins of bigotry and racism. We will turn the rage of an abandoned working class, no matter what its members’ color, race or religious creed, against those who deserve it.


Offline odeon

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2016, 01:22:30 AM »
His writing style gets in the way of his content, and so, beyond some recognisable cliches, I remain unsure of what he actually wants to say.
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Offline Icequeen

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2016, 10:22:37 AM »
Read it twice and don't totally grasp it either. :dunno: Don't dance with the words, just say it already.

I have 3 simple classifications that I group people into:

1. People that I find currently irritating that I try to avoid.
2. People that currently don't irritate me as badly that I only avoid at certain times.
3. People that do not currently irritate me that I enjoy conversing with.

Everyone regardless of race, religion, education, or pedigree normally fits nicely into those three categories.

There should probably be a 4th category labeled the "wild card" for those that are so far out there they just leave me scratching my head and saying "WTF?"...somedays that's probably the best category of them all.

Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2016, 03:52:44 PM »
Got about threee quarters of the way through before I failed to see any point in continuing.

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Offline odeon

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2016, 04:42:16 PM »
Read it twice and don't totally grasp it either. :dunno: Don't dance with the words, just say it already.

I have 3 simple classifications that I group people into:

1. People that I find currently irritating that I try to avoid.
2. People that currently don't irritate me as badly that I only avoid at certain times.
3. People that do not currently irritate me that I enjoy conversing with.

Everyone regardless of race, religion, education, or pedigree normally fits nicely into those three categories.

There should probably be a 4th category labeled the "wild card" for those that are so far out there they just leave me scratching my head and saying "WTF?"...somedays that's probably the best category of them all.

:rofl:
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2016, 05:34:09 PM »
I thought i'd do a "PMSElle" and quote a whole article in full, because the following article is so quotable IMO, that i wanted to quote about 90% of it's content, in relation to debates about Islam, Trump etc.  I think it a brilliant job of expressing what some us would regard as the real underlying issues. Hoping it will stimulate some constructive discussion...or, hmm, well, at least throw a bit of light on my own perspective, and otherwise provide a bit of food for thought.  Thanks to Benji, BTW, for putting me on to this writer.

Article by Chris Hedges found here

Quote
My relatives in Maine are deplorables. I cannot write on their behalf. I can write in their defense. They live in towns and villages that have been ravaged by deindustrialization. The bank in Mechanic Falls, where my grandparents lived, is boarded up, along with nearly every downtown store. The paper mill closed decades ago. There is a strip club in the center of the town. The jobs, at least the good ones, are gone. Many of my relatives and their neighbors work up to 70 hours a week at three minimum-wage jobs, without benefits, to make perhaps $35,000 a year. Or they have no jobs. They cannot afford adequate health coverage under the scam of Obamacare. Alcoholism is rampant in the region. Heroin addiction is an epidemic. Labs producing the street drug methamphetamine make up a cottage industry. Suicide is common. Domestic abuse and sexual assault destroy families. Despair and rage among the population have fueled an inchoate racism, homophobia and Islamophobia and feed the latent and ever present poison of white supremacy. They also nourish the magical thinking peddled by the con artists in the Christian right, the state lotteries that fleece the poor, and an entertainment industry that night after night shows visions of an America and a lifestyle on television screens—“The Apprentice” typified this—that foster unattainable dreams of wealth and celebrity.

Those who are cast aside as human refuse often have a psychological need for illusions and scapegoats. They desperately seek the promise of divine intervention. They unplug from a reality that is too hard to bear. They see in others, especially those who are different, the obstacles to their advancement and success. We must recognize and understand the profound despair that leads to these reactions. To understand these reactions is not to condone them.

The suffering of the white underclass is real. Its members struggle with humiliation and a crippling loss of self-worth and dignity. The last thing they need, or deserve, is politically correct thought police telling them what to say and think and condemning them as mutations of human beings.

Those cast aside by the neoliberal order have an economic identity that both the liberal class and the right wing are unwilling to acknowledge. This economic identity is one the white underclass shares with other discarded people, including the undocumented workers and the people of color demonized by the carnival barkers on cable news shows. This is an economic reality the power elites invest great energy in masking.

The self-righteousness of the liberal class, which revels in imagined tolerance and enlightenment while condemning the white underclass as irredeemable, widens the divide between white low-wage workers and urban elites. Liberals have no right to pass judgment on these so-called deplorables without acknowledging their pain. They must listen to their stories, which the corporate media shut out. They must offer solutions that provide the possibility of economic stability and self-respect.

Martin Luther King Jr. understood the downward spiral of hating those who hate you. “In a real sense all life is inter-related,” he wrote in “Letter From a Birmingham Jail.” “All men are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be, and you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. …”

We cannot battle the racism, bigotry and hate crimes that will be stoked by the Donald Trump presidency without first battling for economic justice. This is not a gap between the tolerant and the intolerant. It is a gap between most of the American population and our oligarchic and corporate elites, which Trump epitomizes. It is a gap that is understood only in the light of the demand for economic justice. And when we start to speak in the language of justice first, and the language of inclusiveness second, we will begin to blunt the protofascism being embraced by many Trump supporters.

I spent two years writing a book on the Christian right called “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.” I spent many months with dispossessed white workers in states such as Missouri, Kansas, Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio and California. I carried into the book project all the prejudices that come with being raised in the liberal church—a disdain for a magic Jesus who answers your prayers and makes you rich, a repugnance at the rejection of rationality and science and at the literal interpretation of the Bible, a horror of the sacralization of the American empire, and a revulsion against the racism, misogyny, homophobia, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism and blind intolerance that often afflict those who retreat into a binary world of good and evil.

Those enthralled by such thinking are Christian heretics—Jesus did not come to make us rich and powerful and bless America’s empire—and potential fascists. They have fused the iconography and symbols of the American state with the iconography and symbols of the Christian religion. They believe they can create a “Christian” America. The American flag is given the same sacred value as the Christian cross. The Pledge of Allegiance has the religious power of the Lord’s Prayer. That a sleazy developer and con artist was chosen as their vehicle—81 percent of evangelicals voted for Trump—for achieving this goal is startling, to say the least. But this is not a reality-based movement. Most of those who profit from this culture of despair, many wrapped in the halo of the ministry, are, like Trump, slick, amoral trolls.

My view of the tens of millions of Americans who have fallen into the embrace of the Christian right’s magical thinking underwent a profound change as I conducted interviews for the book. During that time I did what good reporters do: I listened. And the stories I heard were heartbreaking. I grew to like many of these people. The communities they lived in, many of which I visited, looked like the towns where my family lived in Maine. They were terrified of the future, especially for their children. They struggled with feelings of worthlessness and abandonment. I fear the Christianized fascism in which they enshroud themselves, but I also see them as its pawns.

They hate a secular world they see as destroying them. They long for the apocalyptic visions of Tim LaHaye’s “Left Behind” series. They want the cruelty and rot of “secular humanism” to be obliterated before they and their families are lifted into heaven by the rapture (an event never mentioned in the Bible).

I finished my book with a deep dislike for megachurch pastors who, like Trump, manipulate despair to achieve power and wealth. I see the Christian right as a serious threat to an open society. But I do not hate those who desperately cling to this emotional life raft, even as they spew racist venom. Their conclusion that minorities, undocumented workers or Muslims are responsible for their impoverishment is part of the retreat into fantasy. The only way we will blunt this racism and hatred and allow them to free themselves from the grip of magical thinking is by providing jobs that offer adequate incomes and economic stability and by restoring their communities and the primacy of the common good. Any other approach will fail. We will not argue or scold them out of their beliefs. These people are emotionally incapable of coping with the world as it is. If we demonize them we demonize ourselves.

Arlie Russell Hochschild’s book “Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right” in story after story makes clear that members of the white underclass are also victims and deserve our empathy.

The liberal class has no hope of defeating the rise of American fascism until it unites with the dispossessed white working class. It has no hope of being an effective force in politics until it articulates a viable socialism. Corporate capitalism cannot be regulated, reformed or corrected. A socialist movement dedicated to demolishing the cruelty of the corporate state will do more to curb the racism of the white underclass than lessons by liberals in moral purity. Preaching multiculturalism and gender and identity politics will not save us from the rising sadism in American society. It will only fuel the anti-politics that has replaced politics.

Liberals have sprinkled academic, corporate, media and political institutions with men and women of different races and religions. This has done nothing to protect the majority of marginalized people who live in conditions that are worse than those that existed when King marched on Selma. It is boutique activism. It is about branding, not justice.

Murray Bookchin excoriated the irrelevancy of a liberal class that busied itself with “the numbing quietude of the polling booth, the deadening platitudes of petition campaigns, car[-]bumper sloganeering, the contradictory rhetoric of manipulative politicians, the spectator sports of public rallies and finally, the knee-bent humble pleas for small reforms—in short the mere shadows of the direct action, embattled commitment, insurgent conflicts, and social idealism that marked every revolutionary project in history.”

Human history, as Bookchin and Karl Marx understood, is defined by class struggle. America’s corporate elites successfully fused the two major political parties into a single corporate party, one that seized control of electoral politics, internal security, the judiciary, universities, the arts, finance and nearly all forms of popular communication, including Hollywood, public relations and the press. There is no way within the system to defy the demands of Wall Street, the fossil fuel industry or war profiteers. And Trump is about to remove whatever tepid restraints are left.

Oswald Spengler in “The Decline of the West” predicted that, as Western democracies calcified and died, a class of “monied thugs,” people such as Trump, would replace the traditional political elites. Democracy would become a sham. Hatred would be fostered and fed to the masses to encourage them to tear themselves apart.

The only route left is revolt. If this revolt is to succeed it must be expressed in the language of economic justice. A continuation of the language of multiculturalism and identity politics as our primary means of communication is self-defeating. It stokes the culture wars. It feeds the anti-politics that define the corporate state.

“The heirs of the New Left of the Sixties have created, within the academy, a cultural Left,” Richard Rorty wrote. “Many members of this Left specialize in what they call the ‘politics of difference’ or ‘of identity’ or ‘of recognition.’ This cultural Left thinks more about stigma than about money, more about deep and hidden psychosexual motivations than about shallow and evident greed.”

Our enemy is not the white working poor any more than it is African-Americans, undocumented workers, Muslims, Latinos or members of the GBLT community. The oligarchs and corporations, many of them proponents of political correctness, are our enemy. If we shed our self-righteousness and hubris, if we speak to the pain and suffering of the working poor, we will unmask the toxins of bigotry and racism. We will turn the rage of an abandoned working class, no matter what its members’ color, race or religious creed, against those who deserve it.


I read it. I understood his thesis. It was pretty meandering and almost stream of consciousness. I disagreed with most of it.

Essentially he is saying that the people of his acquanitance are poor hapless souls who have been impoverished and impoverished communities are inherently racists and intellectually destitute. It is within this hopelessness that they will become white nationalists and racists and look for salvation in religion and in escapism, thus falling suckers to scammers.l

This is his segway into Trump's appeal and how Trump managed to get 60 million + votes, because these people who have been screwed over by failing economy and failing cities are similar to these people he referenced, of his acquaintance, and therefore find Trump appealing. Trump in his mind is a snake oil salesman and shares the same bigotry as do these named deplorables.

His appeal to the reader is primarily to feel sorry for these apparent racist deplorables who know not what they do, because they are poor, hopeless and hard done, secondarily to admonish the Liberals and Democrat elite that forgot about these people and lastly to condemn Trump for taking advantage of them.

Poor reading all up. I found it particularly questionable that he used a relatively small sample of people he knew in Maine to be representative of the 60 million people that voted for Trump...but you know. Whatever
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Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

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Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2016, 01:47:45 PM »
Al-

I don't think he's saying that's why all of Trump's voters voted for him, just a certain band of people.  I disagree with a lot of the article and some of the stuff Hedges says generally, but I respect him because he means what he says and knows a hell of a lot about the Middle East. 

At least with people like Hedges, he tries to understand why people voted the way they did and why certain groups are racist.  But with people like Odeon, they aren't capable of understanding route causes of anything, they are only capable of understanding the mainstream media's narrative and anyone who questions it has a problem according to him.  We see here he couldn't understand the article, but just blamed that on the author.  For all of Odeon's accusations of people having reading comprehensions, it is actually Odeon who has the problem.  If you make a point he cannot adress,  it's because the other person is stupid or racist.  If you post information he didn't know about then you're a "conspiracy theorist". That's the little world he lives in and he'll never change.  Not surprising people like ace didn't understand it when he just reads headlines and still struggles with those.
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Offline FourAceDeal

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2016, 02:21:53 PM »
Al-

I don't think he's saying that's why all of Trump's voters voted for him, just a certain band of people.  I disagree with a lot of the article and some of the stuff Hedges says generally, but I respect him because he means what he says and knows a hell of a lot about the Middle East. 

At least with people like Hedges, he tries to understand why people voted the way they did and why certain groups are racist.  But with people like Odeon, they aren't capable of understanding route causes of anything, they are only capable of understanding the mainstream media's narrative and anyone who questions it has a problem according to him.  We see here he couldn't understand the article, but just blamed that on the author.  For all of Odeon's accusations of people having reading comprehensions, it is actually Odeon who has the problem.  If you make a point he cannot adress,  it's because the other person is stupid or racist.  If you post information he didn't know about then you're a "conspiracy theorist". That's the little world he lives in and he'll never change.  Not surprising people like ace didn't understand it when he just reads headlines and still struggles with those.

I understand precisely why people voted the way they voted.  They had a choice between being manipulated by emotion by someone who did not have their own interests at heart, or they were manipulated by fear by someone who did not have their best interests at heart.

I understand what I read.  I just react badly to fascists, sexists and racists.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2016, 02:25:06 PM »
Al-

I don't think he's saying that's why all of Trump's voters voted for him, just a certain band of people.  I disagree with a lot of the article and some of the stuff Hedges says generally, but I respect him because he means what he says and knows a hell of a lot about the Middle East. 

At least with people like Hedges, he tries to understand why people voted the way they did and why certain groups are racist.  But with people like Odeon, they aren't capable of understanding route causes of anything, they are only capable of understanding the mainstream media's narrative and anyone who questions it has a problem according to him.  We see here he couldn't understand the article, but just blamed that on the author.  For all of Odeon's accusations of people having reading comprehensions, it is actually Odeon who has the problem.  If you make a point he cannot adress,  it's because the other person is stupid or racist.  If you post information he didn't know about then you're a "conspiracy theorist". That's the little world he lives in and he'll never change.  Not surprising people like ace didn't understand it when he just reads headlines and still struggles with those.

He does seem to have that intellectual inhibition. You are right about that. I disagree with you on many things. I do not agree with others on many things BUT I see at least a want to have open discussion and put your best foot forward. Even if I disagree, I can understand what you are saying. Odeon can't do that. He does not have that in him. If his position is weak he will make it aggressively and combatively and  (you are right) will infer or outright say you are a bigot if you do not hold his position.

All of this is done from a moral pulpit that he has structured in his own mind. The guy is completely up himself and really has no business in believing his points hold any more weight or value than anyone else's. They tend to be weak and close minded. He seems unable to examine his own position. The desperation he has in reframing what was previously said to be something he can perpetuate his narrative always struck me as the most dishonest.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2016, 02:26:45 PM »
Al-

I don't think he's saying that's why all of Trump's voters voted for him, just a certain band of people.  I disagree with a lot of the article and some of the stuff Hedges says generally, but I respect him because he means what he says and knows a hell of a lot about the Middle East. 

At least with people like Hedges, he tries to understand why people voted the way they did and why certain groups are racist.  But with people like Odeon, they aren't capable of understanding route causes of anything, they are only capable of understanding the mainstream media's narrative and anyone who questions it has a problem according to him.  We see here he couldn't understand the article, but just blamed that on the author.  For all of Odeon's accusations of people having reading comprehensions, it is actually Odeon who has the problem.  If you make a point he cannot adress,  it's because the other person is stupid or racist.  If you post information he didn't know about then you're a "conspiracy theorist". That's the little world he lives in and he'll never change.  Not surprising people like ace didn't understand it when he just reads headlines and still struggles with those.

I understand precisely why people voted the way they voted.  They had a choice between being manipulated by emotion by someone who did not have their own interests at heart, or they were manipulated by fear by someone who did not have their best interests at heart.

I understand what I read.  I just react badly to fascists, sexists and racists.

Yes but let's be real. You are an idiot.

Who exactly are you calling fascists, sexists and racists? Trump voters? What all 61 million? Okay. Thanks for coming.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline odeon

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2016, 02:41:16 PM »
Are you calling everyone who dares to disagree with you and Benji an idiot, now? :orly:

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2016, 02:53:28 PM »
Al-

I don't think he's saying that's why all of Trump's voters voted for him, just a certain band of people.  I disagree with a lot of the article and some of the stuff Hedges says generally, but I respect him because he means what he says and knows a hell of a lot about the Middle East. 

At least with people like Hedges, he tries to understand why people voted the way they did and why certain groups are racist.  But with people like Odeon, they aren't capable of understanding route causes of anything, they are only capable of understanding the mainstream media's narrative and anyone who questions it has a problem according to him.  We see here he couldn't understand the article, but just blamed that on the author.  For all of Odeon's accusations of people having reading comprehensions, it is actually Odeon who has the problem.  If you make a point he cannot adress,  it's because the other person is stupid or racist.  If you post information he didn't know about then you're a "conspiracy theorist". That's the little world he lives in and he'll never change.  Not surprising people like ace didn't understand it when he just reads headlines and still struggles with those.

I understand precisely why people voted the way they voted.  They had a choice between being manipulated by emotion by someone who did not have their own interests at heart, or they were manipulated by fear by someone who did not have their best interests at heart.

I understand what I read.  I just react badly to fascists, sexists and racists.

If you believe Hillary Clinton had people's best interests at "heart" then you really are a funking ignorant imbecile.   And there's no excuse for it as I have posted her crimes on numerous occasions.  So you just haven't bothered to check as you're too closed minded.
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

"When men lead by words that are false as they preach
Fatality waits in the wings
Surrounded by fools behind walls that are breached
Beware of the jester that sings"


Leeeeeaaaave Benji alooooooone!  :bigcry:

Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2016, 03:01:36 PM »
Al-

I don't think he's saying that's why all of Trump's voters voted for him, just a certain band of people.  I disagree with a lot of the article and some of the stuff Hedges says generally, but I respect him because he means what he says and knows a hell of a lot about the Middle East. 

At least with people like Hedges, he tries to understand why people voted the way they did and why certain groups are racist.  But with people like Odeon, they aren't capable of understanding route causes of anything, they are only capable of understanding the mainstream media's narrative and anyone who questions it has a problem according to him.  We see here he couldn't understand the article, but just blamed that on the author.  For all of Odeon's accusations of people having reading comprehensions, it is actually Odeon who has the problem.  If you make a point he cannot adress,  it's because the other person is stupid or racist.  If you post information he didn't know about then you're a "conspiracy theorist". That's the little world he lives in and he'll never change.  Not surprising people like ace didn't understand it when he just reads headlines and still struggles with those.

He does seem to have that intellectual inhibition. You are right about that. I disagree with you on many things. I do not agree with others on many things BUT I see at least a want to have open discussion and put your best foot forward. Even if I disagree, I can understand what you are saying. Odeon can't do that. He does not have that in him. If his position is weak he will make it aggressively and combatively and  (you are right) will infer or outright say you are a bigot if you do not hold his position.

All of this is done from a moral pulpit that he has structured in his own mind. The guy is completely up himself and really has no business in believing his points hold any more weight or value than anyone else's. They tend to be weak and close minded. He seems unable to examine his own position. The desperation he has in reframing what was previously said to be something he can perpetuate his narrative always struck me as the most dishonest.

That is the only way people will ever get anywhere, open discussion.  Simpletons like Odeon and Ace prove they aren't capable of it and there a lot of people like that, but when they get left so far behind they might finally wake up.  I much prefer to have discussions with people I disagree with, but when they are the type that cannot get past memes and labels, we are just wasting our time.
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

"When men lead by words that are false as they preach
Fatality waits in the wings
Surrounded by fools behind walls that are breached
Beware of the jester that sings"


Leeeeeaaaave Benji alooooooone!  :bigcry:

Offline Jack

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2016, 03:13:33 PM »
If you believe Hillary Clinton had people's best interests at "heart" then you really are a funking ignorant imbecile.   And there's no excuse for it as I have posted her crimes on numerous occasions.  So you just haven't bothered to check as you're too closed minded.
That's not what he said, he said both did not have best interests at heart.

Offline benjimanbreeg

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Re: We are All Deplorables
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2016, 03:40:15 PM »
If you believe Hillary Clinton had people's best interests at "heart" then you really are a funking ignorant imbecile.   And there's no excuse for it as I have posted her crimes on numerous occasions.  So you just haven't bothered to check as you're too closed minded.
That's not what he said, he said both did not have best interests at heart.


Sorry to Ace for that bit.  I know it now looks like I'm the tard, which I am, but I am drunk  :P
I still reject his nonsense though, that people just voted for Trump because of "fear".  That's the propaganda used by the media, and like sometimes people aren't justified by their concerns over immigration etc.
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

"When men lead by words that are false as they preach
Fatality waits in the wings
Surrounded by fools behind walls that are breached
Beware of the jester that sings"


Leeeeeaaaave Benji alooooooone!  :bigcry: