Author Topic: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.  (Read 3479 times)

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Offline Jack

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2016, 09:43:46 AM »
Furthermore I would argue that a well- regulated militia is a concept. It is one that does not exist today BUT in the event of calamity, as long as citizens were remaining to be armed, and at the rates that they were, could become organised and regulated. Disarming citizens and removing access to guns would kill the very concept.
'A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' isn't exclusive to the concept of organizing a citizen militia in the event of domestic defense. Though yes, correct about what that can possibly mean. The citizen militia is defined as the people, and the people means just that: We the people of the United States. Other instances in the constitution where the word regulate is used, it's clearly defined what is regulated and who regulates; the second amendment is an exception to that so it is left to the supreme court to define what that means. The supreme court has long ruled and upheld the meaning of the second amendment to be an individual right of the people to bear arms, but also ruling it is not unlimited and does not prohibit regulation.

True. If the citizens were disarmed or had a lack of weapons "could" they be a militia?
As a federally organized group such as the reserve and selective service systems in the US, yes they probably could be. Though from my understanding, defining the word militia by means of able bodied men of a certain age, isn't crucial to legally interpreting the second amendment as an individual right applying to the citizenship as a whole.

Offline Icequeen

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2016, 11:07:23 AM »
Honestly I feel Orlando shouldn't have happened. This guy was reported by the owner of the gun shop, this guy was investigated prior by them (twice)...I think someone was asleep at the wheel and not doing their job.

^ this.

There were many red flags with this guy going back to the 3rd grade. He should've been sent to psychological counseling long ago.

Oh, definitely. He should never have been allowed to buy a gun, either. But he was, as were a number of other shooters. Now, what does that tell you about the state of the gun control in your country?

It tells me that I will keep my guns to protect myself from all the nut cases slipping through the cracks in the mental health system and the law enforcement sector. :zoinks:

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2016, 11:40:57 AM »
Absolutely, but if a calamity happen (government went tyrannical, American was invaded by foreign army, aliens - lol, etc) having a high ratio of gun ownership of the citizens would make that task easier than say "Okay we have 1 gun for every 10 people so the rest will have to throw rocks and carry knives."
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

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Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2016, 11:53:23 AM »

Gun ownership is actually not a constitutional right in the US, but it's what NRA would like you to believe. The Second Amendment s about the right to a well-regulated militia, not about every idiot being allowed to buy a semi-automatic (hence the "well-regulated").

But we happen to have a lawyer in our midst. Why not ask him?

You don't have to be a lawyer, it's a well known Supreme Court decision that affirmed that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to own guns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2016, 11:56:51 AM »
Honestly I feel Orlando shouldn't have happened. This guy was reported by the owner of the gun shop, this guy was investigated prior by them (twice)...I think someone was asleep at the wheel and not doing their job.

^ this.

There were many red flags with this guy going back to the 3rd grade. He should've been sent to psychological counseling long ago.

Oh, definitely. He should never have been allowed to buy a gun, either. But he was, as were a number of other shooters. Now, what does that tell you about the state of the gun control in your country?

That existing laws aren't being enforced. It's already illegal for those with certain diagnosed mental disorders to buy guns, It goes back to the broken US mental health care system.

Offline DirtDawg

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2016, 01:47:59 PM »
This is how I see it.
Sweden's population is a little over 9 million.
France is a little over 64 million.

The US has an estimated population of 323 million as of 2016.

Actually for the size of the country, the diversity, and the population, I think it could be a lot worse.

Russia (over 143 million, and a lot bigger) has stricter gun laws, and double the murder rate.

Mexico has passed some very strict gun laws over the years, hasn't helped them much either. They still beat us by a mile.

Some might say well you can expect that...damn crazy Russians...crazy Mexicans.

But the US is full of crazy Russians, Mexicans, Hungarians, Africans, Irish, Italians, Jamaicans, Chinese, Germans, etc.

Find another country as diverse and as big as this one...pack them all in and tell them to "play nice" and see how it goes.

Honestly I feel Orlando shouldn't have happened. This guy was reported by the owner of the gun shop, this guy was investigated prior by them (twice)...I think someone was asleep at the wheel and not doing their job.

We do not need more gun laws, BUT we DO need to boldly enforce the ones already on the books.

This terrorist should never had access to our constitutional freedoms. We need to use existing laws to keep legal guns out of these peoples'  hands.
I know that there are plenty of illegal guns out there and more laws will not affect that issue, since criminals are not afraid of the laws they ignore every day.

Maybe I have a small fascist twitch at times, but if this terrorist (pot, kettle, black.  This person, American citizen or not, was a terrorist!) did things that got him on a so called FBI "watch list" in the past, how is it that he got "cleared"  so easily.  Was there not a single OCD FBI agent willing to keep looming into him and his behavior while keeping on a watch list??

Or is it more of a thing where IF they can remove people from a watch list, then their workload is lessened, consequences be damned?!?
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.

Offline DirtDawg

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2016, 02:11:36 PM »
Furthermore I would argue that a well- regulated militia is a concept. It is one that does not exist today BUT in the event of calamity, as long as citizens were remaining to be armed, and at the rates that they were, could become organised and regulated. Disarming citizens and removing access to guns would kill the very concept.
'A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' isn't exclusive to the concept of organizing a citizen militia in the event of domestic defense. Though yes, correct about what that can possibly mean. The citizen militia is defined as the people, and the people means just that: We the people of the United States. Other instances in the constitution where the word regulate is used, it's clearly defined what is regulated and who regulates; the second amendment is an exception to that so it is left to the supreme court to define what that means. The supreme court has long ruled and upheld the meaning of the second amendment to be an individual right of the people to bear arms, but also ruling it is not unlimited and does not prohibit regulation.

True. If the citizens were disarmed or had a lack of weapons "could" they be a militia?

No and I fully believe we are more safe with our weapons in hand than without any.
There will always be people fighting among themselves and dying because of it.

I prefer the "rifle behind every blade of grass" defense. Too bad I do not have more patriotic countrymen on my side.

I keep a deadly blade with me at all times and when I am not in a school, city building, concert or other highly restricted venue, I generally carry a concealed .45 auto, not just in case or any thing, but because it is my right to do so and I am getting a little old to be as effective in a fight as I once was.

I wonder how the Orlando thing might have gone if there had been a dozen or so (in a crowd of three hundred, that "dozen" number is probably quite low in most places)  "Pink Pistols"  in attendance.
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.

Offline DirtDawg

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2016, 02:18:32 PM »
Honestly I feel Orlando shouldn't have happened. This guy was reported by the owner of the gun shop, this guy was investigated prior by them (twice)...I think someone was asleep at the wheel and not doing their job.

^ this.

There were many red flags with this guy going back to the 3rd grade. He should've been sent to psychological counseling long ago.

Oh, definitely. He should never have been allowed to buy a gun, either. But he was, as were a number of other shooters. Now, what does that tell you about the state of the gun control in your country?

That existing laws aren't being enforced. It's already illegal for those with certain diagnosed mental disorders to buy guns, It goes back to the broken US mental health care system.

Sorry, did not realize you had already stated this obvious solution.

Just enforcing HARSHLY the laws that already exist, would help with keeping the "legal"  guns out of the hands of most idiots instantly. 

That still leaves the black market guns, which we will never clear out, no matter how the government restricts our law abiding populace from owning weaponry.
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2016, 02:19:02 PM »
Furthermore I would argue that a well- regulated militia is a concept. It is one that does not exist today BUT in the event of calamity, as long as citizens were remaining to be armed, and at the rates that they were, could become organised and regulated. Disarming citizens and removing access to guns would kill the very concept.
'A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' isn't exclusive to the concept of organizing a citizen militia in the event of domestic defense. Though yes, correct about what that can possibly mean. The citizen militia is defined as the people, and the people means just that: We the people of the United States. Other instances in the constitution where the word regulate is used, it's clearly defined what is regulated and who regulates; the second amendment is an exception to that so it is left to the supreme court to define what that means. The supreme court has long ruled and upheld the meaning of the second amendment to be an individual right of the people to bear arms, but also ruling it is not unlimited and does not prohibit regulation.

True. If the citizens were disarmed or had a lack of weapons "could" they be a militia?

No and I fully believe we are more safe with our weapons in hand than without any.
There will always be people fighting among themselves and dying because of it.

I prefer the "rifle behind every blade of grass" defense. Too bad I do not have more patriotic countrymen on my side.

I keep a deadly blade with me at all times and when I am not in a school, city building, concert or other highly restricted venue, I generally carry a concealed .45 auto, not just in case or any thing, but because it is my right to do so and I am getting a little old to be as effective in a fight as I once was.

I wonder how the Orlando thing might have gone if there had been a dozen or so (in a crowd of three hundred, that "dozen" number is probably quite low in most places)  "Pink Pistols"  in attendance.

I think you make a good point
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline DirtDawg

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2016, 03:14:08 PM »
Furthermore I would argue that a well- regulated militia is a concept. It is one that does not exist today BUT in the event of calamity, as long as citizens were remaining to be armed, and at the rates that they were, could become organised and regulated. Disarming citizens and removing access to guns would kill the very concept.
'A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' isn't exclusive to the concept of organizing a citizen militia in the event of domestic defense. Though yes, correct about what that can possibly mean. The citizen militia is defined as the people, and the people means just that: We the people of the United States. Other instances in the constitution where the word regulate is used, it's clearly defined what is regulated and who regulates; the second amendment is an exception to that so it is left to the supreme court to define what that means. The supreme court has long ruled and upheld the meaning of the second amendment to be an individual right of the people to bear arms, but also ruling it is not unlimited and does not prohibit regulation.

True. If the citizens were disarmed or had a lack of weapons "could" they be a militia?

No and I fully believe we are more safe with our weapons in hand than without any.
There will always be people fighting among themselves and dying because of it.

I prefer the "rifle behind every blade of grass" defense. Too bad I do not have more patriotic countrymen on my side.

I keep a deadly blade with me at all times and when I am not in a school, city building, concert or other highly restricted venue, I generally carry a concealed .45 auto, not just in case or any thing, but because it is my right to do so and I am getting a little old to be as effective in a fight as I once was.

I wonder how the Orlando thing might have gone if there had been a dozen or so (in a crowd of three hundred, that "dozen" number is probably quite low in most places)  "Pink Pistols"  in attendance.

I think you make a good point

I found this graphic.
It is not an "assault weapon"  but a hunting weapon. I actually own several, enough to share if it comes to that.

I just think the pic indicates the mysterious "Blade Of Grass"  warning quite well.

BTW, one of my favorite rhetorical fist shaking comments:

Assault is a human behavior, not a mechanical device.



The "Assault Weapon" phrase is almost an oxymoron, even allowing for the violence of the human element.

I have a garage full of PROVEN assault weapons, rakes (some personal history) hoes, shovels, forks, baseball bats (personal history), cameras with heavy duty straps (personal history).  Inside I have a very dangerous environment for an intruder indeed.

Throw a shitty little ceramic decoration, a potato, handful of quarters from my dump jar, anything I can grab with some weight to it into a long sock (all my sock are long)  and I have a very effective weapon in hand. Now, while I might be a little more effective with a handful of shit that resembles a mace,   if they have a gun, I am fucked if I do not reach for one of my guns first.
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« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 03:16:01 PM by DirtDawg »
Jimi Hendrix: When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace. 

Ghandi: Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.

The end result of life's daily pain and suffering, trials and failures, tears and laughter, readings and listenings is an accumulation of wisdom in its purest form.

Offline odeon

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2016, 04:56:12 AM »
Al,

I would urge you to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden or http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372 for slightly more nuanced views of rape in Sweden. Also note that BRÅ, The Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, has not released detailed data on rapes committed by immigrants in 20 years or so, which means that the site you linked to ("the David Horowiz Freedom Center") has either cooked the numbers themselves or used numbers cooked by others.

Incidentally, they describe themselves as follows:

Quote
Identify the enemy
Devise ways to defeat him
The David Horowitz Freedom Center is unique among conservative think tanks whose emphasis is on public policy and institutional reform in that it sees its role as that of a battle tank, geared to fight a war that many still don’t recognize. For 27 years, since its founding in 1988, the Center has been warning that the political left has declared war on America and its constitutional system, and is willing to collaborate with America’s enemies abroad and criminals at home to bring America down. For most of those years the Center was a voice crying in the wilderness with few willing to recognize the threat from the enemy within, a fifth column force that was steadily expanding its influence within the Democratic Party. With the election of a lifetime radical to the White House in 2008, the perceptions of conservatives began to change. But the Center remains unique as an organization dedicated to the war and to developing strategies to win it.

I'd say it's unlikely that any objective data will be produced by these guys. Certainly, they conveniently left out any explanation of the Swedish rape data and why a comparison to other countries may not work.

It is what one would expect from a radical right-wing "think tank" (not using that last term in a charitable way, btw).

The BBC article begins with this, btw:

Quote
Which two countries are the kidnapping capitals of the world?
Australia and Canada.
Official figures from the United Nations show that there were 17 kidnaps per 100,000 people in Australia in 2010 and 12.7 in Canada.
That compares with only 0.6 in Colombia and 1.1 in Mexico.

Which demonstrates the kind of point I'm making here, namely that we should all have a think about any numbers presented to us before starting to blame any group of people.

As for your confused and overly long post on the Orlando shooter and your interpretations of what I did and did not say, goodness, man. Do you actually read what I write?

No, I did not say that the Paris or Brussels attacks weren't acts of terrorism. What the Orlando act was is being debated and the way I see it, no one knows just yet. I think we can agree on mass murder, though.

Banning Muslims from entering the US is a bigoted statement, straight out from Donald's campaign book. Don't like me calling it bigoted? Tough. You have no factual basis for that statement and it would certainly not have stopped the Orlando shootings.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2016, 06:13:03 AM »
For all your pompous condescension you are not backing yourself well yet.

Yes you can simply call me names and not back it, and say "tough", all you like. Regardless of whether the statements are factual or not, (and yes I am happy to debate this), that does not mean that they are bigoted.

What would be really poor form is to think that calling people names proves the argument, that the person is the very things you named that person. It would be almost as bad to think that pompous condescension makes a point for you. It doesn't.

One in four. Not the first time nor the first place I saw harrowing statistics around Swedish rape and rape crisis. Don't get me wrong, it may be all beat up. Feminist propaganda, right wing conspiracies, or academics trying to generate bogus studies to generate funding and attention.

But my point is clear and any rational person would not have found it confusing and neither did you. You just did not agree with what I was saying. I do not find that at all surprising. Plenty of people here in this thread do not agree with you on the "the right to bear arms" not being constitutional. Its fine to believe this but it doesn't make you right, moral or better for believing otherwise.

The same applies to whether this horrific act was terrorism and whether it can be placed alongside any other Radical Islamic based terrorist attack. We could take a poll on that if you like. I think you may be surprised at the results.

Now I don't know your views on Radical Islamic beliefs. I have not asked, and I do not know if I really care, but I think that these views are anti-intellectual, divisive, hateful, exclusionary and anti-Western in every sens of the word. We know that there is real issues such as I mentioned. We can pretend that the extent of the problem is minor or able to be effectively countered. We can say that these things are not a systematic problem

Been for a swim lately Odeon?

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Swedish+swimming+pool+sexual+assaults

But yes nothing systematic as I say. The 1 in 4 is looking closer and closer. As above in the link. It is not to any ONE post you can dismiss.

So now we come down to not what "we" should do, but what America should do. Hillary Clinton wishes to up the up the intake of immigrants from country where Radical Islamic practitioners are numerous generally and Syria specifically (550%). Perhaps she doesn't go to public swimming pools often, I don't know.

Trump wants to stop ALL Muslim immigration and place it on hold until he feels that the FBI can properly reference all Muslims from such countries as to whether they may be Radicalised and limit the risk of such things as the rape crisis and terror attacks that seems to come as a result of such Western hatred from the radicals in Muslim communities.

One makes NO sense and not only ignores the harm but exacerbates it. The other is a little vague on details and perhaps a little impractical BUT it is at least not likely to do harm and is acknowledging the issue. Whilst this may stop moderate Muslims from moving to America, I am sure it will not prevent more Muslims good and bad from immigrating to other countries in Europe. The good ones will work hard and integrate and make a cultural and social contribution to your society. The bad ones? Well you may see them down the local pool molesting women and childre nor heading over to Cologne for New Year's Eve celebrations BUT if you do not see them, that too is a concern, they may be planning the next terrorist attack. I do not think Americans want that and I think Trump recognises this.

See, you criticise trump and he is a blustering, egomanical blowhard on his bad days, but on issues like this I think he is making a very tough, hard, but good call.

So you can say that I am making Trump's talking points but I don't care. I think Hillary is a horrible human being and out of the two, Trump is a far better pick. Who else is there? Bernie? The crazy old Socialist? Gary Johnson the 10%'er and gormless dope-smoker? No it comes down to a criminal and a blowhard. In pretty much every measure he is the best of a bad lot. He is the only chance to beat Hillary (and Hillary needs to be beaten and hopefully jailed).

But have you got anything better than calling me a bigot or intellectually dishonest or perhaps for an encore a poopy-pants? You got an argument? A position? Anything more concrete than insults and condescension?

Not making demands of course. Do what you like. Your board - your rules. Hell you could change the front page and its inconvenient talk of backing yourself. You could remove Call out areas entirely if you wanted. Or you could ignore it and pretend it was of no consequence.

But I know it used to be an anvil of which you used to pound and doing otherwise would seem hypocritical to me.

....There is accountability, however. There is the fact that you had better back up your words when asked, or join some other, moderated, board instead.

The disclaimer says it all. If you are the sensitive type, there are plenty of other boards out there.

....I have no problem understanding why something like the PM spam happens. I just don't like it. It's sneaky and it's dishonest because it's not in the open. It feels very much like an attempt to avoid the accountability that is or at least should be central to how this place works. Remember that shit? Say whatever you like but be prepared to back up your words...

You're not making much sense. but yeah, I'm asking you to back up your shit because it's how we do things here.

Take your time.

....I think you should either prove me wrong, linking to any relevant posts, or shut up. In other words, back up your shit.

Notice, folks, how he never specifies his innuendos? Back up your shit, Cal, or just shut up. Homework, remember?

...Back up your shit. Or apologise.

C'mon, big boy, show me that you are more than an irresponsible internet tough guy.

....But always be prepared to back up your actions.


...I suggest you to back up your accusations or shut up.







« Last Edit: June 19, 2016, 06:51:25 AM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2016, 12:50:44 PM »
:gopher:

Offline odeon

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2016, 02:31:52 PM »
Al,

If you'd bothered to read the articles I pointed to, you would have had your explanation, suitably backed up. The one in four claim is meaningless as it is not based in fact. Why is this? Because those statistics are not available. Also, as most of the organisations who collect and use these numbers for something else than their own agendas point out, comparisons with other countries are problematic and frequently irrelevant because of the varying definitions of the crimes and how statistics are collected.

You'd know this if you had read the articles. You'd know that Australia topping the kidnap statistics is a perfect example of what happens when you do compare crime statistics without bothering to check the numbers.

But instead you went for the drama and for the easy but largely irrelevant points. Fail.

BTW, I notice that you're not actually backing up anything yourself. There are no figures to your increased crime hints in Sweden, only a link to dramatic play with numbers by a hate group calling themselves a think tank, no figures to support that supposed sudden increase in crime proportional to the sudden increase in Syrian refugees. Nothing but guesses. And why is that? Because there are no publicly available numbers on what they claim, and because they use the numbers that are available in, shall we say, a somewhat liberal fashion. It's akin to that lawyer Scrap posted a video of the other day, about radical Islam support.

Of course, closing the US borders for Muslims might bring down something. Maybe one or two of the millions of people who'd otherwise have crossed that border would commit their crimes somewhere else. Who knows? You sure don't, and Trump doesn't, because none of you has backed up anything. So yes, I'm still calling that statement bigoted since the only thing it does is singling out a group.

You know what would help even more than shutting out the Muslims? Closing those borders for everybody.

Yet doing that would not have prevented Orlando either.
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Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2016, 11:39:46 PM »
So yes, I'm still calling that statement bigoted since the only thing it does is singling out a group.

And yet you can't deny it's a certain subset of this group that is responsible for a majority of worldwide terrorism.

Quote
You know what would help even more than shutting out the Muslims? Closing those borders for everybody.

Yet doing that would not have prevented Orlando either.

You know what would've prevented it? A correct DX of Omar Mateen that would've not only prevented him from legally buying a gun under existing law, but likely would've locked him up so he couldn't harm others.  :nerdy: