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Author Topic: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.  (Read 3482 times)

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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2016, 03:39:18 AM »
The Orlando shooter was a nutjob. Yes, ISIS took credit, understandably, but their actual involvement is questionable. It is as likely that he was a homophobic and/or in the proverbial closet, considering that he was known in there.

The fact is that this nutjob, as so many other nutjobs on shooting sprees in the US, could legally obtain their weapons. How many of these tragedies could have been avoided simply by making them just a tiny little bit harder to obtain?

The number homicides per 100,000 population in France in 2012 was 0.21. It was 3.43 in the US in 2014. Of course it's a gun problem.

Except of course for the fact that he was radicalised through Abu Taubah and the radicalised teachings of this Iman. That combined with his visits to Afghanistan, and pledging his allegiance to ISIS.

But guns and nutjob work well too. He was a crazy homophobe with access to guns. Let's not think too hard on it.

Yeah, let's avoid any thoughts that could help avoid the next one.

Fuck off, Odeon. THAT is EXACTLY what you are doing.

Firstly: In America there is a different culture relating to gun ownership than Australia or Europe. In America it is a constitutional right and as sacred as any other constitutional right. SO you will NOT be able to prevent people from buying guns nor change attitudes in respect to that. Its part of what makes Americans, Americans.

Secondly: The gun free zones and gun controlled states tend to have the most gun related violence. Why? Again, it may be an American thing but if a criminal or a madman or terrorist (who is probably both of these other categories) decides to use guns (obtained illegally or legally) on people they don't like, are they likely to be least confident (AND "successful") in areas where no one else has guns? Or where any random person can pull out a concealed gun and come out blasting? Imagine you were in a nightclub without a weapon and feeling safe because guns were banned and then some guy walks in with a gun? Doesn't matter at that stage whether they obtained it legally or not.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=robbers+killed+conceal+and+carry

Thirdly: Its a bit like the "Toxic masculinity" arguments that Feminists have. Something like "Well obviously he is a toxic male and full of toxic masculinity. Men glorify violence and are the more violent gender. Men have to stop being violent".
Your argument whilst a little better is not that much better. Guns kill people, so in gun controlled Orlando, Mateen killed a heap of people with a gun. If not for that he would not have used a pipe bomb or arson or anything else.
It was purely a gun problem:

If there was absolutely sanctioning on guns, then criminals won't be able to get them.
They will not have any other reason to be more creative in how they kill.
Their ideology that compels them to be murderous would deplete.
They would all be well-adjusted.
The threat in America would disappear.
Everyone in America would hand over every single gun.
Everyone in America will embrace revoking of the Constitution rights.
Pigs fly


Okay with all of that in mind

Yeah, let's avoid any thoughts that could help avoid the next one.

How would THAT "avoid" the next one. What is the plan? Tell me something practical and not completely ludicrous that buys into your gun control in America narrative.

No? Okay now let's look at this as a wider problem than a crazy homophobe with a gun.
Let's see his motive and whether America is at risk of imminent threat of more Mateens.

Absolutely. San Bernadino and 9/11 are two more examples of terrorist attacks on US soil from terrorists. So there is already a tiny element of US immigrants or second generation immigrants from Muslim countries and many of these people were displaced from their countries of birth or heritage due to US altercations. These are people with hatred to America and its allies and compassion for the Islamic countries from where they were displaced.

So increase surveillance and access to intelligence on these communities in US may help deal with future potential problems BUT what will NOT is Clinton trying to bring in 500% of the current rates of Syrian refugees (When the Intelligence community in America registers that they are unable to confidently screen and vet everyone decently). Freezing Muslim immigration until America can screen more confidently will ABSOLUTELY reduce the potential of more similar attacks.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline odeon

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2016, 03:11:52 PM »
The Orlando shooter was a nutjob. Yes, ISIS took credit, understandably, but their actual involvement is questionable. It is as likely that he was a homophobic and/or in the proverbial closet, considering that he was known in there.

The fact is that this nutjob, as so many other nutjobs on shooting sprees in the US, could legally obtain their weapons. How many of these tragedies could have been avoided simply by making them just a tiny little bit harder to obtain?

The number homicides per 100,000 population in France in 2012 was 0.21. It was 3.43 in the US in 2014. Of course it's a gun problem.

Except of course for the fact that he was radicalised through Abu Taubah and the radicalised teachings of this Iman. That combined with his visits to Afghanistan, and pledging his allegiance to ISIS.

But guns and nutjob work well too. He was a crazy homophobe with access to guns. Let's not think too hard on it.

Yeah, let's avoid any thoughts that could help avoid the next one.

Fuck off, Odeon. THAT is EXACTLY what you are doing.

Pissy because I'm not responding to your callouts any more? Such language.

Have a look at the bold part of what you wrote. That is why I replied with what I did.

Quote
Firstly: In America there is a different culture relating to gun ownership than Australia or Europe. In America it is a constitutional right and as sacred as any other constitutional right. SO you will NOT be able to prevent people from buying guns nor change attitudes in respect to that. Its part of what makes Americans, Americans.

Gun ownership is actually not a constitutional right in the US, but it's what NRA would like you to believe. The Second Amendment s about the right to a well-regulated militia, not about every idiot being allowed to buy a semi-automatic (hence the "well-regulated").

But we happen to have a lawyer in our midst. Why not ask him?

Quote
Secondly: The gun free zones and gun controlled states tend to have the most gun related violence. Why? Again, it may be an American thing but if a criminal or a madman or terrorist (who is probably both of these other categories) decides to use guns (obtained illegally or legally) on people they don't like, are they likely to be least confident (AND "successful") in areas where no one else has guns? Or where any random person can pull out a concealed gun and come out blasting? Imagine you were in a nightclub without a weapon and feeling safe because guns were banned and then some guy walks in with a gun? Doesn't matter at that stage whether they obtained it legally or not.

It's interesting how the statistics vary, then. The risk of ending up face to face with a nutter with a gun is higher in the US than in, say, the UK. I'd much rather take my chances there because yes, I would feel more safe and the statistics would back me up.

And sure, I'd go with 4Ace's comment about letting them and Darwinism and all that, but there are plenty of Americans I like and would rather not having them killed by the next idiot anytime soon.

Orlando is par for the course, unfortunately. Trump, NRA & Co can label it as terrorism because it will probably make them feel better about their mess, but the fact is that it's not surprising in the least. Paris was surprising, Brussels was surprising. Another nutcase with a legally bought firearm in the US, not surprising in the least. Sad, yes. Surprising, no.

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=robbers+killed+conceal+and+carry

Thirdly: Its a bit like the "Toxic masculinity" arguments that Feminists have. Something like "Well obviously he is a toxic male and full of toxic masculinity. Men glorify violence and are the more violent gender. Men have to stop being violent".
Your argument whilst a little better is not that much better. Guns kill people, so in gun controlled Orlando, Mateen killed a heap of people with a gun. If not for that he would not have used a pipe bomb or arson or anything else.

A legally obtained gun, bought the previous week. You don't think there is a problem with that?

Quote
It was purely a gun problem:

Not purely, but it was a gun problem, yes.

Quote
If there was absolutely sanctioning on guns, then criminals won't be able to get them.
They will not have any other reason to be more creative in how they kill.
Their ideology that compels them to be murderous would deplete.
They would all be well-adjusted.
The threat in America would disappear.
Everyone in America would hand over every single gun.
Everyone in America will embrace revoking of the Constitution rights.
Pigs fly


Okay with all of that in mind

Your words, not mine. I am not that naive. Are you trying to misrepresent what I am saying?

Quote
Yeah, let's avoid any thoughts that could help avoid the next one.

How would THAT "avoid" the next one. What is the plan? Tell me something practical and not completely ludicrous that buys into your gun control in America narrative.

See above.

But what's your plan? Me, I would suggest that there is no god-given right for every idiot to obtain a gun, not without a proper background check or, say, a license. I would further suggest that at least some weapons should be off limits for most individuals, say, like those automatic things used in the last couple of shootings in the US.

No, it would not stop all the criminals but it would make it a lot harder for the lone nutjob to follow his every whim.

Why do you think the US is against North Korea's nuclear weapons? Any guesses? After all, there are plenty of countries with full nuclear capabilities. Why shouldn't they have them? If the US and Russia and China have them, why not North Korea?

No guesses?

Quote
No? Okay now let's look at this as a wider problem than a crazy homophobe with a gun.
Let's see his motive and whether America is at risk of imminent threat of more Mateens.

Absolutely. San Bernadino and 9/11 are two more examples of terrorist attacks on US soil from terrorists. So there is already a tiny element of US immigrants or second generation immigrants from Muslim countries and many of these people were displaced from their countries of birth or heritage due to US altercations. These are people with hatred to America and its allies and compassion for the Islamic countries from where they were displaced.

Don't go steal Donald's speeches. He'll be cross.

How many shootings on US soil do you suppose have anything to do with terrorism? Any guesses? The fact is that you don't know if the Orlando shootings were an act of terrorism, you only know that ISIS claimed credit for them.

But even if it did, with the current laws, he was a US citizen and obtained his weapon legally. What would you have them do? Throw out every second-generation immigrant, too? Ban Islam on US soil? Pretty sure that would not go well with their constitutional rights but I'm not a lawyer.

Why not ask the one we have among us?

Quote
So increase surveillance and access to intelligence on these communities in US may help deal with future potential problems BUT what will NOT is Clinton trying to bring in 500% of the current rates of Syrian refugees (When the Intelligence community in America registers that they are unable to confidently screen and vet everyone decently). Freezing Muslim immigration until America can screen more confidently will ABSOLUTELY reduce the potential of more similar attacks.


About 100,000 or so Syrian refugees had fled to Sweden by the end of last year, while a mere 4,000 got as far as the US. We have yet to have anything even remotely like Orlando or San Bernadino here, so I think what you are describing here is yet another logic fail in one of Donald's speeches (and I'm ignoring the blatant bigotry for now).

But the capital letters sure look dramatic.
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Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2016, 03:31:07 PM »
The fact is that this nutjob, as so many other nutjobs on shooting sprees in the US, could legally obtain their weapons. How many of these tragedies could have been avoided simply by making them just a tiny little bit harder to obtain?

Probably the same number who couldn't get alcohol as a result of prohibition in the 1920's. AFAIK that number was a grand total of 0 people.

Quote
The number homicides per 100,000 population in France in 2012 was 0.21. It was 3.43 in the US in 2014. Of course it's a nigger problem.

Fixed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide

Yeah, it make so much more sense to allow anyone access to weapons.

So are you advocating disarming blacks??  :dunno:

Offline Jack

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2016, 04:34:17 PM »
The comparison with the Paris attacks is an odd one--that one was a well-planned attack, carried out by a terror organisation cell. The Orlando attack was the act of a loner, a US citizen who bought the weapon legally, no questions asked, in spite of having been previously questioned by the FBI.

Of course it's a gun problem.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-remarks-gun-control-hauntingly-000000581.html
Obama stating it's impossible to keep suspected terrorist from obtaining guns is currently true, but about 80% of domestic terrorism acts in the US are bombings and arson with guns accounting for about 5% of methodology. It strikes as a scare tactic to promote an agenda when an honest approach would be more meaningful; not sure exactly what gets a person on the watch list but understand it's a lot more than ISIS sympathizers. The US has an eclectic history of domestic terrorism from right wing, left wing, racial, religious, animal and environmental, etc...extremists of every breed who sometimes act as organized and some lone. Every terrorist act carries a sub-set of the population who nod in agreement. Muslim terrorist are no different.

If you think it's scare tactics you're missing the point which is a simple one, namely that your country needs better gun control.
Sure thing, but using scare tactics about muslims is a really crappy way to go about that. That article doesn't make that point. He's blaming the NRA for what the Supreme Court decides, and uses a small fraction of a small faction to illustrate something that could be better served than by playing upon the public's bigotry. An FBI trend study shows a total of 16 instances over the course of thirty years where guns were used as a method for domestic terrorism. I think it's a scare tactic because it's a scare tactic, a shady needless unfounded scare tactic. There's more honest ways to approach it than ooooh the muslims. The second amendment gives the public the right to an organized militia system; there is one in place and that's who's on the watch list along with their sympathizers. Obama's not going to say oooooh the white Christians, but Jack will.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:46:52 PM by Jack »

Offline Icequeen

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2016, 07:04:04 PM »
This is how I see it.
Sweden's population is a little over 9 million.
France is a little over 64 million.

The US has an estimated population of 323 million as of 2016.

Actually for the size of the country, the diversity, and the population, I think it could be a lot worse.

Russia (over 143 million, and a lot bigger) has stricter gun laws, and double the murder rate.

Mexico has passed some very strict gun laws over the years, hasn't helped them much either. They still beat us by a mile.

Some might say well you can expect that...damn crazy Russians...crazy Mexicans.

But the US is full of crazy Russians, Mexicans, Hungarians, Africans, Irish, Italians, Jamaicans, Chinese, Germans, etc.

Find another country as diverse and as big as this one...pack them all in and tell them to "play nice" and see how it goes.

Honestly I feel Orlando shouldn't have happened. This guy was reported by the owner of the gun shop, this guy was investigated prior by them (twice)...I think someone was asleep at the wheel and not doing their job.


Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2016, 07:08:27 PM »
Honestly I feel Orlando shouldn't have happened. This guy was reported by the owner of the gun shop, this guy was investigated prior by them (twice)...I think someone was asleep at the wheel and not doing their job.

^ this.

There were many red flags with this guy going back to the 3rd grade. He should've been sent to psychological counseling long ago.

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2016, 07:25:39 PM »
Find another country as diverse and as big as this one...pack them all in and tell them to "play nice" and see how it goes.

I reiterate, I think gun dueling should be made legal again.  :2thumbsup:
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Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2016, 08:35:40 PM »
the watch list

Everyone on this site is probably on the watchlist for talking about the watchlist.  :zoinks:
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Offline renaeden

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2016, 12:22:36 AM »
^Not me. 
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Offline odeon

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2016, 01:13:53 AM »
The comparison with the Paris attacks is an odd one--that one was a well-planned attack, carried out by a terror organisation cell. The Orlando attack was the act of a loner, a US citizen who bought the weapon legally, no questions asked, in spite of having been previously questioned by the FBI.

Of course it's a gun problem.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/obama-remarks-gun-control-hauntingly-000000581.html
Obama stating it's impossible to keep suspected terrorist from obtaining guns is currently true, but about 80% of domestic terrorism acts in the US are bombings and arson with guns accounting for about 5% of methodology. It strikes as a scare tactic to promote an agenda when an honest approach would be more meaningful; not sure exactly what gets a person on the watch list but understand it's a lot more than ISIS sympathizers. The US has an eclectic history of domestic terrorism from right wing, left wing, racial, religious, animal and environmental, etc...extremists of every breed who sometimes act as organized and some lone. Every terrorist act carries a sub-set of the population who nod in agreement. Muslim terrorist are no different.

If you think it's scare tactics you're missing the point which is a simple one, namely that your country needs better gun control.
Sure thing, but using scare tactics about muslims is a really crappy way to go about that. That article doesn't make that point. He's blaming the NRA for what the Supreme Court decides, and uses a small fraction of a small faction to illustrate something that could be better served than by playing upon the public's bigotry. An FBI trend study shows a total of 16 instances over the course of thirty years where guns were used as a method for domestic terrorism. I think it's a scare tactic because it's a scare tactic, a shady needless unfounded scare tactic. There's more honest ways to approach it than ooooh the muslims. The second amendment gives the public the right to an organized militia system; there is one in place and that's who's on the watch list along with their sympathizers. Obama's not going to say oooooh the white Christians, but Jack will.

I didn't read it as scare tactics, tbh.
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Offline odeon

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2016, 01:39:59 AM »
Honestly I feel Orlando shouldn't have happened. This guy was reported by the owner of the gun shop, this guy was investigated prior by them (twice)...I think someone was asleep at the wheel and not doing their job.

^ this.

There were many red flags with this guy going back to the 3rd grade. He should've been sent to psychological counseling long ago.

Oh, definitely. He should never have been allowed to buy a gun, either. But he was, as were a number of other shooters. Now, what does that tell you about the state of the gun control in your country?
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2016, 05:34:26 AM »


Pissy because I'm not responding to your callouts any more? Such language.

Have a look at the bold part of what you wrote. That is why I replied with what I did.

Not at all pissy. I am not sure whether you are aware of how diversely the word "Fuck" or the phrase "Fuck off" can be used in Australia. This is probably a bit closer to how I was putting it out there.


You think "Fuck off" is "such language"? Really? Do you know where you are? You are on I2 where:

Quote
We stand for freedom of expression, combative debate, and the generation of ideas. There are no boundaries here over what may be said, save for one rule - be prepared to back up your words. Or face the wrath of the community.

Oh that is right, you don't back your shit up and your callout IS a testament of that. Does it bother me? No, why should it? It does not reflect on me that you will not back you. That would be moronic to even imply such a thing, wouldn't it be?

Though having said that. It seemed to be quite important to this guy. (A guy that "I" am not accountable to but YOU are):

....There is accountability, however. There is the fact that you had better back up your words when asked, or join some other, moderated, board instead.

The disclaimer says it all. If you are the sensitive type, there are plenty of other boards out there.

....I have no problem understanding why something like the PM spam happens. I just don't like it. It's sneaky and it's dishonest because it's not in the open. It feels very much like an attempt to avoid the accountability that is or at least should be central to how this place works. Remember that shit? Say whatever you like but be prepared to back up your words...

You're not making much sense. but yeah, I'm asking you to back up your shit because it's how we do things here.

Take your time.

....I think you should either prove me wrong, linking to any relevant posts, or shut up. In other words, back up your shit.

Notice, folks, how he never specifies his innuendos? Back up your shit, Cal, or just shut up. Homework, remember?

...Back up your shit. Or apologise.

C'mon, big boy, show me that you are more than an irresponsible internet tough guy.

....But always be prepared to back up your actions.


...I suggest you to back up your accusations or shut up.

I completely agree with the spirit and values as to what this quoted guy is saying. I concur. Imagine how much of a hypocrite he would be if he, after asserting others had to, didn't himself? I mean re-read those quotes. He was pretty expressive and there was no ambiguity.

Do you imagine that I have to answer to that? Nope, YOU do.
Its precisely the same hypocrisy as this:

If I attack somebody, at least I have the honesty to read his or her posts while attacking. Hell, even Benji gets that treatment.

....And I'm sure you'll continue this. This is Intensity, where people can post largely uncensored. And, in your case, unread.

Its an interesting trend, not one that I should feel bad about or pissy about nor one that I ought to  or responsible about.

Quote
Firstly: In America there is a different culture relating to gun ownership than Australia or Europe. In America it is a constitutional right and as sacred as any other constitutional right. SO you will NOT be able to prevent people from buying guns nor change attitudes in respect to that. Its part of what makes Americans, Americans.

Gun ownership is actually not a constitutional right in the US, but it's what NRA would like you to believe. The Second Amendment s about the right to a well-regulated militia, not about every idiot being allowed to buy a semi-automatic (hence the "well-regulated").

But we happen to have a lawyer in our midst. Why not ask him?

Well I could but I am not the one arguing against it being a constitutional right. If he wants to jump in, I am more than happy for him to do so. As far as I am aware. The meaning of "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Seems to me and many to specifically indicate a want of people to keep and bear arms. From what? From the as yet non-materialised threat of a "Government Tyranny". Furthermore any Government wishing to place perceived excessive restrictions on such ability for citizens to bear arms may by virtue of the fact that it is a heavily armed government taking away collective citizen's rights to bear those arms, as a tyrannical government.

The Government buyback in Australia worked well here but it is a different culture and a different relationship to guns than in America.

Government represent the citizens and as long as citizens associate the right to bear arms in the way that they do the government will not be able to stop citizens bearing arms or considering it a right to do so.

Furthermore I would argue that a well- regulated militia is a concept. It is one that does not exist today BUT in the event of calamity, as long as citizens were remaining to be armed, and at the rates that they were, could become organised and regulated. Disarming citizens and removing access to guns would kill the very concept.

I am happy to look at  what others more learned than I am on another country's constitutional rights and the effect that these rights do or don't have but this seems to support what I said https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

Quote
Secondly: The gun free zones and gun controlled states tend to have the most gun related violence. Why? Again, it may be an American thing but if a criminal or a madman or terrorist (who is probably both of these other categories) decides to use guns (obtained illegally or legally) on people they don't like, are they likely to be least confident (AND "successful") in areas where no one else has guns? Or where any random person can pull out a concealed gun and come out blasting? Imagine you were in a nightclub without a weapon and feeling safe because guns were banned and then some guy walks in with a gun? Doesn't matter at that stage whether they obtained it legally or not.

It's interesting how the statistics vary, then. The risk of ending up face to face with a nutter with a gun is higher in the US than in, say, the UK. I'd much rather take my chances there because yes, I would feel more safe and the statistics would back me up.

And sure, I'd go with 4Ace's comment about letting them and Darwinism and all that, but there are plenty of Americans I like and would rather not having them killed by the next idiot anytime soon.

Orlando is par for the course, unfortunately. Trump, NRA & Co can label it as terrorism because it will probably make them feel better about their mess, but the fact is that it's not surprising in the least. Paris was surprising, Brussels was surprising. Another nutcase with a legally bought firearm in the US, not surprising in the least. Sad, yes. Surprising, no.

Are you for a moment saying that it was not Terrorism? Okay the the Paris attacks were not Terrorism. It was simply a group of people who self-identified with radical Isamic terrorist groups and wanted to terrorise and murder people on the basis of Radical Islamic ideology.

Fine OK, if that is our measure, sure, why not?

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=robbers+killed+conceal+and+carry

Thirdly: Its a bit like the "Toxic masculinity" arguments that Feminists have. Something like "Well obviously he is a toxic male and full of toxic masculinity. Men glorify violence and are the more violent gender. Men have to stop being violent".
Your argument whilst a little better is not that much better. Guns kill people, so in gun controlled Orlando, Mateen killed a heap of people with a gun. If not for that he would not have used a pipe bomb or arson or anything else.

A legally obtained gun, bought the previous week. You don't think there is a problem with that?

I think any hateful nutjob killing is abhorrent and no reasonable person would say otherwise. I think any person using a gun to kill someone is not good, unless in self-defence.
But I do not think this is what you are asking. You may be saying is it okay that this security guard had access to guns? Or maybe you are asking is it fine that someone who had been investigated by the FBI had been able to purchase a gun legally?

The answer to any of these questions is "Maybe". Did he slip through the cracks? Was he someone who was able to function in society without the right types of people able to make the right kinds of connections about him that would have otherwise exclude him from gun use? You don't know and neither do I. Do you want me to speculate or are you making a bigger point?

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It was purely a gun problem:

Not purely, but it was a gun problem, yes.

If he had of used a pipe bomb to the same effect, it would have been a pipe bomb problem. If this is what you mean by "problem", that is fine. If you are meaning it in another way, then "no".

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If there was absolutely sanctioning on guns, then criminals won't be able to get them.
They will not have any other reason to be more creative in how they kill.
Their ideology that compels them to be murderous would deplete.
They would all be well-adjusted.
The threat in America would disappear.
Everyone in America would hand over every single gun.
Everyone in America will embrace revoking of the Constitution rights.
Pigs fly


Okay with all of that in mind

Your words, not mine. I am not that naive. Are you trying to misrepresent what I am saying?


I hope you are not that naive but given the last few months I am forced to question pretty much everything you say.
Here is the thing, If Westboro Baptists decided to ramp up their hate a little more and started graffiti tombstones of service men and of gays whilst it would be a graffiti problem and the may be a graffiti problem in inner cities with tagging. They are not the same. They use the same tools and do similar damage but they are not the same. Th motive between the two are chalk and cheese.
Furthermore IF the Westboro Baptist started doing a few bombings and gun murders domestically and did them with their ideological righteous justifications, it would be foolhardy to either isolate the gun murders from the bombings or to consider the bombings with other domestic bombings and the gun murders with other gun murders.
If they then did online courses promoting their hate and encouraging others to do the same, if a course taker did follow their ideals and commit such crimes and identified as doing it for the Westboro Baptists and considered themselves a Westboro Baptist, it would not matter if they attended the parish or had a relationship personally with them.

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Yeah, let's avoid any thoughts that could help avoid the next one.

How would THAT "avoid" the next one. What is the plan? Tell me something practical and not completely ludicrous that buys into your gun control in America narrative.

See above.

But what's your plan? Me, I would suggest that there is no god-given right for every idiot to obtain a gun, not without a proper background check or, say, a license. I would further suggest that at least some weapons should be off limits for most individuals, say, like those automatic things used in the last couple of shootings in the US.

No, it would not stop all the criminals but it would make it a lot harder for the lone nutjob to follow his every whim.

Why do you think the US is against North Korea's nuclear weapons? Any guesses? After all, there are plenty of countries with full nuclear capabilities. Why shouldn't they have them? If the US and Russia and China have them, why not North Korea?

No guesses?

I personally do not think ANY country should have nuclear weapons and further IF America has them, then so should Soviets and North Korea and any other country. They are terrible things but who can say who is safer with them. For decades there was a narrative that Russia was seconds away from flipping the switch. They were all crazy and unstable (what we here now of that North Korean fuckwit) apparently. However I say that Russia was no better or worse than America and I trust neither. Nor do i trust China, nor Israel nor the next country to make nuclear weapons.

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No? Okay now let's look at this as a wider problem than a crazy homophobe with a gun.
Let's see his motive and whether America is at risk of imminent threat of more Mateens.

Absolutely. San Bernadino and 9/11 are two more examples of terrorist attacks on US soil from terrorists. So there is already a tiny element of US immigrants or second generation immigrants from Muslim countries and many of these people were displaced from their countries of birth or heritage due to US altercations. These are people with hatred to America and its allies and compassion for the Islamic countries from where they were displaced.

Don't go steal Donald's speeches. He'll be cross.

How many shootings on US soil do you suppose have anything to do with terrorism? Any guesses? The fact is that you don't know if the Orlando shootings were an act of terrorism, you only know that ISIS claimed credit for them.

But even if it did, with the current laws, he was a US citizen and obtained his weapon legally. What would you have them do? Throw out every second-generation immigrant, too? Ban Islam on US soil? Pretty sure that would not go well with their constitutional rights but I'm not a lawyer.

Why not ask the one we have among us?

Steal Donald Trump speeches? Let's be real. Even if Donald trump want to say or mean EXACTLY what I just wrote, he would reduce it all into an embarrassing soundbyte which would go something like this:

"Muslims come here and kill all of us because they all hate America."

Then he would need someone like Katrina Pierson have to translate that for him. "When he said Muslims he mean Radicalised Islamic Muslim Fundamentalists, and when he said all of us, he meant all Americans everywhere are at risk of Radicalised Muslim violence. When he said they hate America, he meant Radical Muslims hate America".

Me? I am more nuanced. He isn't. He is more often than not cringeworthy to watch.

No I know that Mateen made trips to Afganistan and was inspired by a radical Iman and did courses from him that were anti-American and Pro-ISIS. I know that he pledged loyalty to ISIL.

If you want to say that he was not directed by ISIS, I agree, there is nothing showing this, BUT if you are saying the only link was ISIS taking credit for the murders, that simply is not true. 

What exactly are you wanting me to ask MLA now? You want me to ask him something that you are wondering, about throwing out second generation immigrants? Its your question, you ask him if you like. I have no interest in it.

If you are wanting what my personal belief is that America should ramp up its screening and intel. It should crack down and monitor Hell out of any and all potential terrorism ties or associations within its borders. It should definitely try restrictive immigration measures.

What these measure should be? Dunno and what's more don't care. I do think that the want for a country to protect itself from foreign threats, and from toxic and harmful ideologies is very important. As to whether a security measure may regrettably also place a hold on non-radical Muslims wanting to peacefully immigrate and make another country their home....its bad luck. Truly bad luck. It is unfortunate but in my opinion until you can differentiate good from bad, it is okay erring on the side of caution.


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So increase surveillance and access to intelligence on these communities in US may help deal with future potential problems BUT what will NOT is Clinton trying to bring in 500% of the current rates of Syrian refugees (When the Intelligence community in America registers that they are unable to confidently screen and vet everyone decently). Freezing Muslim immigration until America can screen more confidently will ABSOLUTELY reduce the potential of more similar attacks.


About 100,000 or so Syrian refugees had fled to Sweden by the end of last year, while a mere 4,000 got as far as the US. We have yet to have anything even remotely like Orlando or San Bernadino here, so I think what you are describing here is yet another logic fail in one of Donald's speeches (and I'm ignoring the blatant bigotry for now).

But the capital letters sure look dramatic.

There is no blatantly bigotry so by all means you can back that too.
Yes you say that the 100 000 Syrian refugees have not presented any problems for your country. I sincerely hope that they do not. I really, really do hope for that. I do not want Paris like attacks on your shores. Nor do I want your airports to be bombed like what happened in Brussels.  Nor do I want Swedish New Year's sex attacks like the ones in Cologne. I also hope that there will never be rape gangs like there were in Rotherham in your community.

As to whether you have any of these issues and whether if you did, whether it would be informed through immigrant populations from Muslim countries, I don't know

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/175434/1-4-swedish-women-will-be-raped-sexual-assaults-daniel-greenfield

I hope not. I do not want you women, children and men in your community at risk. What about you?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 08:42:55 PM by Al Swearengen »
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline Jack

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2016, 06:34:54 AM »
I didn't read it as scare tactics, tbh.
Maybe because that article made the topic of discussion to be about US domestic terrorism. Like serial killers, domestic terrorists in the US are a different breed of maniac; their acts are much less common and methods different than other crime, almost exclusively bombers and arsonists, and by in large bombers. Generally acts targeting the public or property are animal rights and environmental extremists, and Christian extremists targeting abortion centers. With the exception of the ALF and ELF most acts in the US aren't by organized groups. The reason the government wants their terrorist watch list to be included in current gun control laws isn't about acts of terrorism; it's about controlling organized groups which the government deems to be a threat to the government rather than the citizenship, and those groups are organized militia groups. For the government to make terrorism to be about anything else is dishonest. Similar to homicide rates and violent crime rates, US domestic terrorism rates are about a third of what they were in the 80's; it could be much better but also could be, and has been, much worse. That decline may be related to government efforts to control and monitor explosives, or maybe this country is simply learning to chill the hell out.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 07:50:53 AM by Jack »

Offline Jack

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2016, 07:39:40 AM »
Furthermore I would argue that a well- regulated militia is a concept. It is one that does not exist today BUT in the event of calamity, as long as citizens were remaining to be armed, and at the rates that they were, could become organised and regulated. Disarming citizens and removing access to guns would kill the very concept.
'A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' isn't exclusive to the concept of organizing a citizen militia in the event of domestic defense. Though yes, correct about what that can possibly mean. The citizen militia is defined as the people, and the people means just that: We the people of the United States. Other instances in the constitution where the word regulate is used, it's clearly defined what is regulated and who regulates; the second amendment is an exception to that so it is left to the supreme court to define what that means. The supreme court has ruled and upheld the meaning of the second amendment to be an individual right of the people to keep and bear arms, but also ruling it is not unlimited and does not prohibit regulation. The second amendment has in the past been interpreted by the supreme court to only limit the federal government, but more recently ruled that individual state governments are subject to the same limitations.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2016, 08:49:31 AM by Jack »

Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: Nothing worth mentioning is happening in Orlando Florida.
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2016, 08:58:12 AM »
Furthermore I would argue that a well- regulated militia is a concept. It is one that does not exist today BUT in the event of calamity, as long as citizens were remaining to be armed, and at the rates that they were, could become organised and regulated. Disarming citizens and removing access to guns would kill the very concept.
'A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' isn't exclusive to the concept of organizing a citizen militia in the event of domestic defense. Though yes, correct about what that can possibly mean. The citizen militia is defined as the people, and the people means just that: We the people of the United States. Other instances in the constitution where the word regulate is used, it's clearly defined what is regulated and who regulates; the second amendment is an exception to that so it is left to the supreme court to define what that means. The supreme court has long ruled and upheld the meaning of the second amendment to be an individual right of the people to bear arms, but also ruling it is not unlimited and does not prohibit regulation.

True. If the citizens were disarmed or had a lack of weapons "could" they be a militia?
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap