Author Topic: baltimore (and everywhere else)  (Read 6731 times)

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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2015, 05:06:04 AM »
I've seen people without homes or food, and I think they meet the criteria for poor.
That sounds about right.

I would agree with them being a minority among the "poor" in the developed countries, but they do exist. Which is what I meant. A rich country does not equal rich people.

A rich country merely indicates a higher average income (and perhaps some over avg/median measurements)....says nothin about the distribution of that income, or even what opportunities it can buy. I know people who can't drink their own tap water because its brown and has to be boiled- that on top of going hungry quite often, being financially poor, poorly educated, with poor access to food, and living in unsafe environments, regularly profiled, and untrusted by law enforcement. And this all borne out of circumstance. Yet they live in a rich country.
Damocles, remember him?
I am not poor. I never have been poor.
What makes me feel poor is the knowledge that based on the color of my skin I could lose my life on a whim.
It was my mantra in Florida:
Stay calm. Be polite. Move slow. Give no reason for violence.

What we're missing is the comparison. If you compare me with someone from a third world who has nothing, sure I look privileged. I have a job, shelter and disposable income.

But next to that white guy in a suit who isn't thinking about whether than policeman is going to come over here, I have none. I don't have the luxury of ignoring the police officer. I don't have the luxury of forgetting my ID, or of thinking that I can carry a weapon and safe because I have a weapon. It would be foolish of me to think that I have any kind of privilege other than the fleeting financial sort. My so called privilege won't help me if some police officer decides I need to be dealt with using lethal force.

Not that different here. (Well police isn't armed, so there is a difference in possible fatalities.)
At the thrift shop we discriminate with a purpose. If a regular looking white person wants to buy a second hand bike without having paperwork with it, we'd let them go that way. But if it is someone looking visibly poor, or not white, or a combination of that, they will not leave the shop without an extended receipt, autographed and stamped, with all the data of the bought bike, so that they can prove to the police they are no thieve riding their bike. Sucks.
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Offline Jack

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2015, 08:57:56 AM »
It was my mantra in Florida:
That's interesting. Have found my own experience to be the opposite and it to be the most multi-cultural and integrated place ever lived. That's due to previous experience only being in places where people of color largely, if not solely, represented a negative element, if there were any others at all. Here it's different because they represent every class of people, they are also the average man, business men, and respected contributors and leaders in the community. For the first time in my life I have peers who are not white, and it's been a very positive force in my attitude and perspective concerning people in general.

Offline sg1008

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2015, 11:05:32 AM »
I've seen people without homes or food, and I think they meet the criteria for poor.
That sounds about right.

I would agree with them being a minority among the "poor" in the developed countries, but they do exist. Which is what I meant. A rich country does not equal rich people.

A rich country merely indicates a higher average income (and perhaps some over avg/median measurements)....says nothin about the distribution of that income, or even what opportunities it can buy. I know people who can't drink their own tap water because its brown and has to be boiled- that on top of going hungry quite often, being financially poor, poorly educated, with poor access to food, and living in unsafe environments, regularly profiled, and untrusted by law enforcement. And this all borne out of circumstance. Yet they live in a rich country.
Damocles, remember him?
I am not poor. I never have been poor.
What makes me feel poor is the knowledge that based on the color of my skin I could lose my life on a whim.
It was my mantra in Florida:
Stay calm. Be polite. Move slow. Give no reason for violence.

What we're missing is the comparison. If you compare me with someone from a third world who has nothing, sure I look privileged. I have a job, shelter and disposable income.

But next to that white guy in a suit who isn't thinking about whether than policeman is going to come over here, I have none. I don't have the luxury of ignoring the police officer. I don't have the luxury of forgetting my ID, or of thinking that I can carry a weapon and safe because I have a weapon. It would be foolish of me to think that I have any kind of privilege other than the fleeting financial sort. My so called privilege won't help me if some police officer decides I need to be dealt with using lethal force.

Not that different here. (Well police isn't armed, so there is a difference in possible fatalities.)
At the thrift shop we discriminate with a purpose. If a regular looking white person wants to buy a second hand bike without having paperwork with it, we'd let them go that way. But if it is someone looking visibly poor, or not white, or a combination of that, they will not leave the shop without an extended receipt, autographed and stamped, with all the data of the bought bike, so that they can prove to the police they are no thieve riding their bike. Sucks.

You guys have to have paperwork for buying bikes? :o

I agree with wolfish...you do not have to be impoverished to be oppressed. Apartheid mentality does not mean you are being literally pissed on each day.
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline 'andersom'

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2015, 11:39:26 AM »

You guys have to have paperwork for buying bikes? :o

I agree with wolfish...you do not have to be impoverished to be oppressed. Apartheid mentality does not mean you are being literally pissed on each day.

Bikes are an important way of transportation here. Most people will have a bike. Bikes all have a frame number. And, bikes get stolen a lot. So, if you buy a second hand bike, you can ask for an extended receipt, showing you bought the bike. There is a site where you can check frame numbers as a buyer too, to see if the bike is registered as stolen, IIRC.
Most second hand bikes get sold via ads in supermarkets and such, without a check or paper trail. But, chances are you are buying a stolen bike then.
Last bikes I got were without any paperwork. Might have been wiser to ask for it. But I know where they came from. So, taking it is OK.

Because bikes are one of the best ways of transportation here, most people looking for asylum here will save up to get a dirt cheap one. And yes, they are targeted more often than other people to show they have actually bought the bike. Even more than a matter of colour it may be a matter of fitting in. Getting the social clues of this new society they are in. People who only just arrived in this country do stand out in a different way. But colour does play a big role in it too.
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Offline odeon

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2015, 12:01:37 PM »
Nationalize currency, end dual citizenship. Outlaw super pacs.

Why end dual citizanship?
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2015, 09:04:21 PM »
Yeah I wanted to know that too.
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

Offline sg1008

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2015, 10:46:12 PM »

You guys have to have paperwork for buying bikes? :o

I agree with wolfish...you do not have to be impoverished to be oppressed. Apartheid mentality does not mean you are being literally pissed on each day.

Bikes are an important way of transportation here. Most people will have a bike. Bikes all have a frame number. And, bikes get stolen a lot. So, if you buy a second hand bike, you can ask for an extended receipt, showing you bought the bike. There is a site where you can check frame numbers as a buyer too, to see if the bike is registered as stolen, IIRC.
Most second hand bikes get sold via ads in supermarkets and such, without a check or paper trail. But, chances are you are buying a stolen bike then.
Last bikes I got were without any paperwork. Might have been wiser to ask for it. But I know where they came from. So, taking it is OK.

Because bikes are one of the best ways of transportation here, most people looking for asylum here will save up to get a dirt cheap one. And yes, they are targeted more often than other people to show they have actually bought the bike. Even more than a matter of colour it may be a matter of fitting in. Getting the social clues of this new society they are in. People who only just arrived in this country do stand out in a different way. But colour does play a big role in it too.

That is really interesting. Here...bikes are more like toys....like skateboards or rollerblades, for sport or a day at a park with bike paths. Nobody will be asking anyone to prove their bike is theirs. I use mine for transport, but we have many many steep hills, so transport is limited- bus is the main mode of transport with me, but the bike is an often used back-up, especially when I don't have bus change.

However, the profiling you speak of occurs with cars...its very common to be profiled by a cop if you are black or latino.
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline WolFish

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #67 on: May 17, 2015, 12:05:15 AM »
It was my mantra in Florida:
That's interesting. Have found my own experience to be the opposite and it to be the most multi-cultural and integrated place ever lived. That's due to previous experience only being in places where people of color largely, if not solely, represented a negative element, if there were any others at all. Here it's different because they represent every class of people, they are also the average man, business men, and respected contributors and leaders in the community. For the first time in my life I have peers who are not white, and it's been a very positive force in my attitude and perspective concerning people in general.
Florida? Seriously? Couldn't have been where I lived.
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Offline WolFish

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #68 on: May 17, 2015, 12:11:16 AM »

You guys have to have paperwork for buying bikes? :o

I agree with wolfish...you do not have to be impoverished to be oppressed. Apartheid mentality does not mean you are being literally pissed on each day.

Bikes are an important way of transportation here. Most people will have a bike. Bikes all have a frame number. And, bikes get stolen a lot. So, if you buy a second hand bike, you can ask for an extended receipt, showing you bought the bike. There is a site where you can check frame numbers as a buyer too, to see if the bike is registered as stolen, IIRC.
Most second hand bikes get sold via ads in supermarkets and such, without a check or paper trail. But, chances are you are buying a stolen bike then.
Last bikes I got were without any paperwork. Might have been wiser to ask for it. But I know where they came from. So, taking it is OK.

Because bikes are one of the best ways of transportation here, most people looking for asylum here will save up to get a dirt cheap one. And yes, they are targeted more often than other people to show they have actually bought the bike. Even more than a matter of colour it may be a matter of fitting in. Getting the social clues of this new society they are in. People who only just arrived in this country do stand out in a different way. But colour does play a big role in it too.

I have a bike that has been with me through everything. I am so unused to city living that I am going to buy a cheap bike to see if it gets stolen. A lot of people ride them here, or take the metro. Your post makes me wonder if they have some system here for tracking bikes. I don't think I will be targeted because Montreal is a lot more diverse so the police are looking for different cues than skin color. I don't look like the stereotypical black person which I guess helps too.
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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2015, 08:57:57 AM »
It was my mantra in Florida:
That's interesting. Have found my own experience to be the opposite and it to be the most multi-cultural and integrated place ever lived. That's due to previous experience only being in places where people of color largely, if not solely, represented a negative element, if there were any others at all. Here it's different because they represent every class of people, they are also the average man, business men, and respected contributors and leaders in the community. For the first time in my life I have peers who are not white, and it's been a very positive force in my attitude and perspective concerning people in general.
Florida? Seriously? Couldn't have been where I lived.

It's been awhile since I lived there but I still have family there but I found that Florida is still very much the 'old South' in parts and rather progressive in others.  I lived in Sarasota from 78-85 and if you drove ten miles inland it was pure redneck country big cowboy hats and all but along the coast it was full of all kinds of people from all over the country and fairly progressive.  The distance you have to travel inland now has increased but go far enough and it's still there
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Offline Jack

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #70 on: May 17, 2015, 09:49:17 AM »
It was my mantra in Florida:
That's interesting. Have found my own experience to be the opposite and it to be the most multi-cultural and integrated place ever lived. That's due to previous experience only being in places where people of color largely, if not solely, represented a negative element, if there were any others at all. Here it's different because they represent every class of people, they are also the average man, business men, and respected contributors and leaders in the community. For the first time in my life I have peers who are not white, and it's been a very positive force in my attitude and perspective concerning people in general.
Florida? Seriously? Couldn't have been where I lived.
For some reason thought we lived in the same city.

Offline sg1008

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #71 on: May 17, 2015, 10:10:06 PM »
Ah Florida...the place Jeb Bush prevented thousands of black people from voting, and Zimmerman walked free after murdering a black kid, and a black woman was locked up for shooting (and missing) in self-defense.

Not a place I will ever set foot if I can help it...unless I'm suicidal.

Oh yeah, its also the place apparently the constitution has no jurisdiction and politicians can outlaw the phrase "climate change" for elected officials. and require drug tests among poor people on welfare? geesh that state.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 10:53:43 PM by sg1008 »
Can't you guys even just imagine it?

Forget practicality, or your experience....can you just....imagine?

It's there. It always was.

Offline WolFish

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #72 on: May 17, 2015, 10:52:14 PM »
It was my mantra in Florida:
That's interesting. Have found my own experience to be the opposite and it to be the most multi-cultural and integrated place ever lived. That's due to previous experience only being in places where people of color largely, if not solely, represented a negative element, if there were any others at all. Here it's different because they represent every class of people, they are also the average man, business men, and respected contributors and leaders in the community. For the first time in my life I have peers who are not white, and it's been a very positive force in my attitude and perspective concerning people in general.
Florida? Seriously? Couldn't have been where I lived.
For some reason thought we lived in the same city.
We lived just outside of Orlando.
Far enough out that when I sat in our backyard the neighbor came running to ask if I belonged there.
Far enough out that when I put my wallet down while I was paying for my purchase at CVS a woman reached around me and grabbed my wallet. I took it back. She said she was just making sure it was mine.
Or right after walking out of the store, receipt in hand, with the suitcase I had just purchased and a temp stood in my way to ask if I had purchased the suitcase.
I've gone into stores and had four or five different people ask me if I needed help. I usually don't let it get to that number. Around about the third one I say "Yes, could you tell all the other people in the store who are going to ask if I need help that I would like to  be left alone to shop?"
One of my favorites from the Orlando area was when I was at the airport and picked up my bag at baggage claim and a woman stood in my way and said, "Are you sure that's yours?" My bag was a heck of a lot nicer than hers. I have a penchant for high quality.

My ex didn't believe these kinds of things happened until one day she was standing in another part of the store and saw the cashier fairly leap over the counter to intercept me. That was in Massachusetts, where I had another favorite:
My ex was in Filenes Basement and had dragged me along so I was looking at random things. A store clerk was following me but making noise, so finally I turned to her and said, "Look, if you're going to follow me, could you at least be quiet about it?" She got really embarrassed and said loudly "I'm not following you!" and then began to move clothes back and forth on the rack - the same clothes, over and over again. But she stopped following me.
I have favorites from everywhere except New York City, where people know enough to ignore me and target the little old lady with the bulging shopping bag.
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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #73 on: May 18, 2015, 02:39:56 AM »
I have favorites from everywhere except New York City, where people know enough to ignore me and target the little old lady with the bulging shopping bag.

Statistics show the chance that a shoplifter is a woman over 50 is big. That is the group to watch indeed.
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Offline odeon

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Re: baltimore (and everywhere else)
« Reply #74 on: May 18, 2015, 03:00:06 PM »
I don't know what to say, Wolfish. People are cunts, generally speaking, but apparently more so in some places than in others.
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