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Author Topic: Individuals vs Group  (Read 2574 times)

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Offline odeon

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Individuals vs Group
« on: January 09, 2015, 12:20:53 AM »
As you know, terrorists recently killed twelve people in Paris. They did it in the name of their religion, Islam, but even though the vast majority of Muslim organisations and individuals across the planet have condemned the attack and actions of these men, innocent people are now being blamed and targeted, their only connection with the terrorists being that they happen to believe in the same god.

This is not humanity's finest hour. :(
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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2015, 12:48:34 AM »
No it isn't, is it? I have hated groupthink with a passion all my life, and now that it is reaching new highs in it's influence I hate it even more. It has always lead to violent and reactionary nonsense.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2015, 08:47:21 AM »
Down with groupthink!  :soapbox:


In all seriousness though, it's awful, both what happened and the way it's getting grouped under Islam in the media. I've seen some good discussions though between Muslims and non-Muslims on why it would be considered offensive to create images of Mohammed, and where the roots of that belief started.
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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2015, 09:32:43 AM »
Last Monday there was an article in the newspaper about two out of five mosques being regularly targeted with grafity and violence.
Day after the terrorist killing in Paris happened.

I hate nauseating group thinking.

Those journalists also mocked vehement islamophobes.

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Offline Yuri Bezmenov

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 11:05:06 AM »
As you know, terrorists recently killed twelve people in Paris. They did it in the name of their religion, Islam, but even though the vast majority of Muslim organisations and individuals across the planet have condemned the attack and actions of these men, innocent people are now being blamed and targeted, their only connection with the terrorists being that they happen to believe in the same god.

The problem with fanatics is that they are the ones who are more accurately interpreting scripture. It's the moderates who cherry-pick the good stuff while ignoring all the evil verses of their holy books.

Therefore, one could easily make the argument that it's the terrorists who truly represent Islam, while the majority of muslims ignore large parts of the Quran and just live their lives like normal human beings. Just like Christians, they go to the mosque once a week to compare clothes.    ::)

Offline odeon

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2015, 02:34:51 PM »
As you know, terrorists recently killed twelve people in Paris. They did it in the name of their religion, Islam, but even though the vast majority of Muslim organisations and individuals across the planet have condemned the attack and actions of these men, innocent people are now being blamed and targeted, their only connection with the terrorists being that they happen to believe in the same god.

The problem with fanatics is that they are the ones who are more accurately interpreting scripture. It's the moderates who cherry-pick the good stuff while ignoring all the evil verses of their holy books.

Er, no. What do you base your assumptions on?

Quote
Therefore, one could easily make the argument that it's the terrorists who truly represent Islam, while the majority of muslims ignore large parts of the Quran and just live their lives like normal human beings. Just like Christians, they go to the mosque once a week to compare clothes.    ::)

Actually, no. You are basing your argument on a faulty assumption.

I don't know if the brothers spoke Arabic; they might have. I am pretty sure, however, that they did not speak the Arabic of the Quran as originally transcribed. The language has changed significantly.

Here's the thing: Muslims consider *any* translation of the Quran an interpretation because according to their beliefs, the Quran is God's actual words and as such divine. The words themselves are divine and therefore untouchable. They are, verbatim, God's words.

This presents a couple of problems, of which the most important is that in Islam, only the original version can be considered to actually contain God's message(s), which means that basically only the ones who actually know the Arabic of the Quran as spoken (and written) then can with any reasonable accuracy convey those messages, let alone interpret them.

So, in order to convey the message, you need to not only know the ancient language, but also the cultural and sociological context of the time, plus the more obvious fact that you need to be a Muslim and in a position of authority--effectively, you need to be an Imam. AFAIK, the Sunni Imams tend to mostly lead services in mosques and provide services to that effect, while the Shia Imams sometimes have a far more central role. Both, of course, include the clarifying of possibly different interpretations of God's words; many Muslims read the Quran but merely reading a translation or even the original Arabic does not grant you the right of interpretation.

This means that the power and *range* of an interpretation varies.

From a scholarly point of view, when interpreting the Quran, the source itself is, of course, paramount, but after it follow a number of secondary sources, such as the sayings of Muhammad (known as the Hadith), the tales told by Mohammad's companions, the second-generation followers, and so on.

So what all this means is that while the basics of how to interpret the Quran are fairly accepted as described above, pretty much everything else varies because the religion is fragmented and there is no single accepted interpretation of anything in the book.

This applies whenever clarifying a passage in the Quran. Any passage.

So please tell me how the terrorists' interpretation of the Quran is somehow more right than the majority's. Muslim communities across the globe have condemned the attacks, including leaders from both of the major factions.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Jack

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 02:49:50 PM »
As you know, terrorists recently killed twelve people in Paris. They did it in the name of their religion, Islam, but even though the vast majority of Muslim organisations and individuals across the planet have condemned the attack and actions of these men, innocent people are now being blamed and targeted, their only connection with the terrorists being that they happen to believe in the same god.

The problem with fanatics is that they are the ones who are more accurately interpreting scripture. It's the moderates who cherry-pick the good stuff while ignoring all the evil verses of their holy books.

Therefore, one could easily make the argument that it's the terrorists who truly represent Islam, while the majority of muslims ignore large parts of the Quran and just live their lives like normal human beings. Just like Christians, they go to the mosque once a week to compare clothes.    ::)
It's certainly true that the extremist of an ideology are the ones who make the ideology look the worst as a whole, but still see it as most logical to attack the ideology as a whole rather than individuals and that's hard to do without attacking the people who hold the ideology as a whole, because very few walk around letting it be known to the general population that they're an extremist. This isn't to say that targeting people who have done nothing is in any way appropriate; that seems much more personal than attacking their ideas and not like attacking the ideology of an entire group at all; it's very personal and not group. It's a difficult call.



Offline odeon

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2015, 03:18:46 PM »
I don't believe in a god, but I don't wish to look down on anyone who does, and I certainly don't wish to blame one believer for the crimes committed by another.

With that said, if a believer is basing his or her argument against me on the deity he or she chooses to believe in, I will most likely not place any weight on the argument unless the argument itself has some entertainment value.

Case in point: Once upon a time when I was a physics student at the uni, a Jehovah's witness knocked on my door. She was a n00b, though, clearly sent by her superiors to do the more thankless work in the neighbourhood, and so I invited her in for a coffee and a discussion. It was great fun and all I had to do was to explain the basics of Carbon dating, its proof and its implications to shoot down her message.

She admitted that she wasn't experienced enough (gaining a lot in my esteem) and asked if she could check with her superiors and come back the following weekend.

The process was repeated that weekend. She offered explanations and scripture, and I shot them down using more physics. She went back to her people, they provided her with more, and she came back. This was repeated a few times.

Why did I do this? Well, obviously there was the entertainment value, which was considerable, in my humble opinion. But also, more importantly, she was willing to argue and she was willing to concede a point. She was also willing to do the dirty work for her superiors who never showed up.

I didn't buy any of her message, but she still has my respect.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Jack

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2015, 03:24:17 PM »
That makes sense, but still see this as a bit similar to people who attack Christianity, and thus Christians as a result. Christians have equal power as voters and Christianity a great deal of influential power within the US government. Maybe France can see it coming.

Offline odeon

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2015, 03:30:05 PM »
That makes sense, but still see this as a bit similar to people who attack Christianity, and thus Christians as a result. Christians have equal power as voters and Christianity a great deal of influential power within the US government. Maybe France can see it coming.

Oh yes. The really nasty side of religion. People will be killed because of it, but the difference is that there will be no headlines.
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Offline Jack

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2015, 03:31:40 PM »
Indeed.

Offline odeon

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2015, 03:52:04 PM »
And here's what perhaps will always bother me the most:

The conviction of a believer (any believer, any religion) that a supreme being might somehow be offended by something we do or don't do.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 04:10:41 AM by odeon »
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2015, 05:31:38 PM »
So what are people supposed to do then? Cower to them and their offended god?  >:(
:gopher:

Offline Pyraxis

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2015, 05:43:46 PM »
Maybe respect them and their personal sense of propriety even if you can't extend it to believing that their god is the one offended.
You'll never self-actualize the subconscious canopy of stardust with that attitude.

Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: Individuals vs Group
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2015, 05:49:07 PM »
Maybe respect them and their personal sense of propriety even if you can't extend it to believing that their god is the one offended.
So the media of the world should stop making images of their god out of respect/fear for them?  >:(
:gopher: