Malaysia jet crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone

[ZEGH8578]

No, no, no.. (replying to some here).. in the end Putin, mark my words, is full-on responsible for killing almost 300 totally innocent people. Almost a third were children.. more than half Dutch folk. He gave the okay indirectly 'to missile down' the aeroplane. Flight MH17. That is what happened.

You shouldn't go around giving the impression that you know something the rest of the world is not sure of, then go "mark my words" and "that is what happened."

if you are THAT blunt about it, please post the sources which guarantee that this was the case. You seem to guarantee it, but you are just an internet-user. I want to see the actual guarantee, or I'm going to completely ignore your input here.

[RageBeoulve]

 

[sg1008]

The plane crashes that i have known about, worldwide, have always led to whatever country doing all it can to repatriate the dead and be considerate to those who have lost loved ones.

I have never known a situation like this before.   Currently there are a number of bodies on board a train.  The train won't leave because Russian separatists won't let it.

It is hard to tell if Putin is doing all he can.  The world has been quick to point a finger, myself included.   It is possible the rocket launcher used to shoot down the plane was taken by the separatists from a Ukraine military base.  There is no evidence proving it was gifted from Russia. 

The more i see of these Russian Separatists the more i wonder if they are controllable by Putin.  They seem so out of order.  They are lacking integrity, and the humanity that we normally see when innocent lives are lost.  These poor souls,  a hundred of them just children were not enemies of the separatists, or Russia.   There are many elements to this crash site, and a need for investigations, but this is the human side -  allowing people to have proper funerals.   Not allowing this is just amplifying the suffering.

I agree Bodie...the inhumanity is peculiar and stinks of bureaucracy. They may have been mercenaries.

[ZEGH8578]

Just so we're clear, I'm not disagreeing with you Lutra, in fact, you are probably right. But you really should not be saying "mark my words!" and such, with these high-stakes political events. There is a certain protocol Or you won't be taken seriously.

It's like saying "just trust me!" in a science discussion, it's a no-dice, you must offer something more - or be more humble in your wording.

[odeon]

Not sure if we'll actually find out what took place beyond the fact that the plane was shot down.

[bodie]

The Russians like to keep things shhhhhhhh

[odeon]

Always. Which is things aren't always what they seem. Keeping things quiet is a way of life.

['andersom']

Australian diplomacy helped a bit. There will be an international investigation, and a local cease fire.

[bodie]

Putin's personal web page at the Kremlin

http://eng.putin.kremlin.ru/bio
Worth a look.  Kind of interesting. 

in his 1956 Volga 

[lutra]

You're right, Zegh. I should've been more humble in my wording. I expressed my gut feeling there. This drama frustrates a lot of people.. mea incluis.

[odeon]

Personally I think the Russians are at least partly responsible, simply by providing the weapons and the training. I'm afraid it might be more than that, though.

[bodie]

You are angry.  People died.  Innocent children died.  It is mind blowing stuff. 

I blamed 'Putin' too, initially.  Or rather i suspected he had something to do with it.

He probably has but i don't think for one minute he gave an ok to shoot down passenger jet MH17.  If there was an 'ok' it came from Alexander Borodai.  It would have been an 'ok' to shoot down a Ukrainian military cargo jet, as they had done weeks earlier.

The word 'accident' doesn't really fit very well for what happened.  I don't know of a word that does.  However i am sure MH17 wasn't intentionally targeted.

That doesn't make it ok.  Russia has previous as does the US.  That still doesn't mean that Putin goes around shooting down passenger jets.

So, what was Putin's involvement?  I would say a loose connection.  He has helped Borodai for sure.  He sent arms and finances  at the start.  I don't think so much lately.  Did he supply the BUK surface to air missile?  I doubt we will ever know as it could have been stolen from the Ukrainians.

Therefore i think it is fair to say it is possible that Putin has some blood on his hands.  I doubt we will ever know.

The only point i want to make is this:  56 Ukrainians went down in a military/ cargo plane in exactly the same way only weeks before.  Those lives are just as important, just as meaningful as the Dutch, Malaysian, Australian and British lives on MH17.  Didn't even make the news over here!

[bodie]

Is it a coincidence that the Home Secretary announces a full, judge led, independent enquiry into the death of Litvinenko today.  They say the timing is just a coincidence, but i doubt it.  There is a lot of anger at Russia at the moment.

[ZEGH8578]

You're right, Zegh. I should've been more humble in my wording. I expressed my gut feeling there. This drama frustrates a lot of people.. mea incluis.

I noticed when you said "lots of dutch people", it is understandable, when things hit "close to home" it's easy to lose ones cool. My calculated pragmatism went out the window after Utøya, "DEATH PENALTY FOR THE MURDERER O_-"

[Semicolon]

Is it a coincidence that the Home Secretary announces a full, judge led, independent enquiry into the death of Litvinenko today.  They say the timing is just a coincidence, but i doubt it.  There is a lot of anger at Russia at the moment.

How long has it been since then? That's quite a wait.