Postnatal Abortion?

[Nomaken]

Let me reiterate:


Okay, kevv, I am having a hell of a hard time understanding you, but I am going to try and break it down.

But You did say this in the end. What is Life but a investment.

Life isn't an investment.  Life is pointless and meaningless.

You don't give a Fuck for Living Life do You.

Mine? No.  Others?  Ehh... no not really.

Giving and takinking Life is nothing is it to You.

Right.  Giving and taking life means nothing to me.

A year or two what does that child even Yet Know in the end nothing but something for it has even breathe the breath of Life then or have been given that change too.

I have no idea what this means.

Postnatal even prenatal Abortion are wrong that is what I believe in the end.

You are entitled to your opinion.

How do We let Life Live read Job 21:10 then We may yet Know Living and the Dead.

I prefer Fox in Socks to the Bible personally.

[Leto729]

If they had aborted you it wouldn't matter because no one would know to miss you.  Same goes for me.  I would be willing to allow abortion until several years after birth, because I don't consider the experiences of a few days or weeks, or perhaps even years to create that valuable of a human.

Until humans reach a certain stage of intellectual maturity, they are almost incapable of appreciating things like sentience, and freedom, and other abstract concepts, and until a certain stage it wouldn't occur to them to think critically about an issue, or decide to form their own opinion about things, and appreciate that everyone forms their own opinions based on inevitably flawed information, and yet opinions are really the only way that we humans can decide how to shape our world.  I consider a human valuable when it can do at least some of those things, or is on the way to developing those abilities.

However just because I would be in favor of allowing aborting people who aren't at that stage, doesn't mean I am in favor of killing them.  Passing a law which allows abortion, is not the same as passing a law mandating the deaths of people.  I'm sure there would be plenty of parents who would decide not to kill their child even though he has the creativeness and individuality and independant thinking of a grape fruit.

And How would We have changed the World in the end. How do We allow them to Live in the end that matters to Me Allowing to Live Life is what should matter McJagger and His Wife are allowing that son or daughter are they not. They would allow that child to Live or Die whatever happens happens does it not in the end. Even though they would miss that child even they cared for that child too. Life is Life not a few minutes or many minutes of time Life is Precious no matter what time has been spent learning what Life is in the end. We here have yet learned what Life is should even the unborned or even the Postnatal born too.

[Nomaken]

And How would We have changed the World in the end.

There is no way to know.  But it is betting foolishly to assume that we would necessarily make the world a better place.  Statistically, out of billions of people, a very small percentage of them are the crux of something incredibly good.  As do a very small percentage of them do something incredibly bad.  There is a huge percentage of people who are pretty much pointless.  And another huge percentage of them which do an average amount of good or bad.  And how the percentages are depends mostly on how optimisitic you are.  I'd have to undertake a SERIOUS study to figure out that shit.

How do We allow them to Live in the end that matters to Me Allowing to Live Life is what should matter.

And you are entitled to that opinion.

McJagger and His Wife are allowing that son or daughter are they not. They would allow that child to Live or Die whatever happens happens does it not in the end. Even though they would miss that child even they cared for that child too.

And that is their decision.  They are entitled to their opinion to.  Although they couldn't abort their child postnatally even if they wanted to.  Legally anyway.

Life is Life not a few minutes or many minutes of time Life is Precious no matter what time has been spent learning what Life is in the end.

And you are entitled to that opinion.  I disagree.  I think life is worthless.  I value other qualities of living creatures besides simply their existence.

We here have yet learned what Life is should even the unborned or even the Postnatal born too.

I have no idea what this means.

[Leto729]

Let me reiterate:


Okay, kevv, I am having a hell of a hard time understanding you, but I am going to try and break it down.

But You did say this in the end. What is Life but a investment.

Life isn't an investment.  Life is pointless and meaningless.

You don't give a Fuck for Living Life do You.

Mine? No.  Others?  Ehh... no not really.

Giving and takinking Life is nothing is it to You.

Right.  Giving and taking life means nothing to me.

A year or two what does that child even Yet Know in the end nothing but something for it has even breathe the breath of Life then or have been given that change too.

I have no idea what this means.

Postnatal even prenatal Abortion are wrong that is what I believe in the end.

You are entitled to your opinion.

How do We let Life Live read Job 21:10 then We may yet Know Living and the Dead.

I prefer Fox in Socks to the Bible personally.

Then understand this. You do not care at all. You don't care if You where born or not. I care that I was born even with all the problems I have had in the end. Life is what Life is in the end it is a Investment in Us All. Know matter Who We are in the end. Life is what Life become and what We make Life that is for Us and them. What is is is it not. You live and they do not. You are nothing as I am nothing too. But We All become something together do We Not in the end. It is how We teach each other as Mother, Father. Son, Daughter is it not in the end. For that is the beginnings of learning Life is it not. Life is more Precious is it not. You care for nothing I care for something is that it is the way it going to be in the end?

[Nomaken]

Then understand this. You do not care at all. You don't care if You where born or not.

Right.  I don't care about something I have no control over.

I care that I was born even with all the problems I have had in the end.

Great.  You can appreciate something you have absolutely no control over or influence in if you want to. 

But that kind of argument is just silly.  Fetuses care no more about their existence than a chicken does.  Parents cannot reach into the future and find out the adult preferences of their unborn child.  You cannot send information into the past to tell them to have you.  If you were aborted you would not exist now to have an opinion about it.  And if I was, I would not exist now to argue with you over it.  Saying you would be pissed if you were aborted is stupid.  You wouldn't be pissed, because you can't.  You wouldn't exist to vote abortion illegal, or take umbrage at it being legal.

Life is what Life is in the end it is a Investment in Us All.  Know matter Who We are in the end.

Life is a potential investment.  But it could be a total waste, or only allow us to break even.  Based on the number of children who become millionaires and allow their parents to bask in early retirement compared to the number of children who just make it, and the number of children who are a drain on their parents until their early death, it is foolish to assume that life is inherently a good investment.

Life is what Life become and what We make Life that is for Us and them. What is is is it not. You live and they do not. You are nothing as I am nothing too.

This seems to have no point.  So sure.

But We All become something together do We Not in the end.

No, some of us die alone as failures remembered by no one.  Others of us become serial killers and ruin other peoples lives, cause them to die alone as failures.

It is how We teach each other as Mother, Father. Son, Daughter is it not in the end.

Is what that?

For that is the beginnings of learning Life is it not.

No, not necessarily. 

Life is more Precious is it not.

No.  I disagree.

You care for nothing I care for something is that it is the way it going to be in the end?

I didn't say I cared for nothing.  I said I don't value life.  There are other things in the world besides life.

[Leto729]

And what do you care at all Nomaken?

[Leto729]

About Life or Death then at all.

[Nomaken]

I care about the personality and perceptions of lifeforms.  I care about their intentions, and what acts they accomplish.  I appreciate individualism, creativity, originality, independant thinking, and critical thinking.  I care about their happiness.  I appreciate curiosity, patience, tolerance, and kindness.  I care about their emotions, and what their experiences mean to them.  I appreciate those things that mean more to them than life.

[McGiver]

there are exceptions of course; like rape.

my thing about abortion is simple: i am sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their own actions.  many abortions can simply be avoided by using safe sex.

[Nomaken]

I would prefer we create policy which gives people the greatest freedom to make intelligent decisions.  See, nobody that gets laid has my outlook on the value of life.  If culture hasn't taught them to value life, and enjoy the prospect of raising children, and having a family, then the maternal(or paternal) instinct to have children, and protect their young will have an effect on their decision.  There is a lot going for fetuses.

Nobody is out there getting pregnant just to have the evil satisfaction of destroying life with an abortion, also considering they are at a certain risk of death during it.

And perhaps there are a lot of people who are getting pregnant, and then realize they cannot support the child, and wanting to have an abortion.  And perhaps they are being irresponsible, but it would be irresponsible of us to not provide her the ability to, because if we force her to have a child she cannot support, we will have likely created a child who will live in poverty, with less than stellar parents.  Maybe you would like to make the mother pay for her irresponsibility, but I do not want to make an innocent bystander(the child) suffer because of her stupidity.

[McGiver]

Nobody is out there getting pregnant just to have the evil satisfaction of destroying life with an abortion, also considering they are at a certain risk of death during it.

your right5.  but they know that each time they have consentual, unprotected sex that the possibility exist that a pregnancy will occur.
abortion is just too convenint of a way for both the man and the women to shirk their responsibilities of having sex.

[Nomaken]

Perhaps it is.  But do you feel it is better to punish them?  Or punish them and a child(who really had no say in the matter)?

[McGiver]

Perhaps it is.  But do you feel it is better to punish them?  Or punish them and a child(who really had no say in the matter)?

how can you call it punishment when you are simply asking people to act responsibly

and the unborn child:  i guess never having a chance to live isn't a form of punishment.

yes Nomaken, you wish that you would have been aborted, but ask several people the same question and i wonder what they would have to say....

[Nomaken]

I can call it punishment because as a consequence of them "acting responsibly" as you call it, they will suffer needlessly.

Never having the chance to live isn't a punishment because they don't exist to know suffering.

I never said that I wished I had been aborted.  I know that most people will say they would have prefered to not be aborted because they are looking at it from their point of view, not from the point of view of the unborn child.

And the question is stupid in any event because no persons opinions have any affect on whether they were born or not.  They already were born.  Of course they're gonna say yes to their own life, because they are inclined to act in self interest, and given that hypothetical(and impossible) situation, they are of course going to say to save their own life.

But if you ask them how they would devise a policy to deal with other fetuses lives, in light of the circumstances of the mother and the environment.  It is not so certain they will jump to mandate the fetus live.  And this is a question whose answers can actually be applied to the real world.  Most likely, if the situation described makes saving the fetus in their own self interest they will be inclined to say fetuses are humans, and if the situation described makes abortion being legal be in their own self interest they will be inclined to say that it is the mothers right to choose.

That is most people.  Some others pick one side or the other despite all logic and reason, and even conflict with their own values.  And then a select few actually have an independant, original, well thought out opinion on the issue.

[McGiver]

honestly, i quite reading after your opening statement, nomaken.

it read like a lame excuse, so i couldn't be bothered with the rest.

asking someone to show responsibility is NOT punishment.  problem is that modern society makes far too many excuses for irresponsible behaviour; relativism.  and they also make it too easy for people to shirk their responsibilities.

if people were aware of the secondary effects to their irresponsible behavious, i suspect that people would ACT more responsibly.  there are, after all, several reliable birth control devices.  use them!