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Author Topic: They were almost raped, guys.  (Read 4601 times)

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Offline Jack

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2013, 06:54:38 PM »
Body language is a much better way of assessing if someone is being shifty and such.

Except for the poor autistics and their body language. :laugh:

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2013, 06:57:45 PM »
 :nerdy:

Offline Semicolon

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2013, 09:28:18 PM »
Body language is a much better way of assessing if someone is being shifty and such.

Except for the poor autistics and their body language. :laugh:

:indeed:

That's why we have the NSA; they keep an eye on the shifty internet autistics. :ninja:
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Offline Gopher Gary

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2013, 09:29:03 PM »
I'm feeling shifty. :GA:
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Offline Bastet

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2013, 09:48:04 PM »
I rape my cats
:kitten: OBSESSIVE AILUROPHILE :kitten:


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Offline Semicolon

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2013, 11:45:41 PM »
I2 has a smiley for everything. Even a hamster wheel. :hamsterwheel:

Quote from: iamnotaparakeet
Jesus died on the cross to show us that BDSM is a legitimate form of love.
There is only one truth and it is that people do have penises of different sizes and one of them is the longest.

Offline odeon

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2013, 11:54:56 PM »
I don't know for certain about the salary difference. I know the statistics show that it's likely, but I don't know a socially acceptable way to find out the salary of everyone at the company with the same job title. I'm outside the rumor circles because I barely socialize.

I do know that about 95% of the executives are male.

A couple years ago when we were implementing a feature for players to put their own faces on their custom characters in the game we were making, I brought up the question of what female players would do. (The characters in that game were traditionally male.) It was quickly decided that resources couldn't be spared to implement a female option. Last year the question came up of rebuilding the randomizer that populates the crowds. Again, though every character was being remodeled, it was decided that it was too much effort to make some of them female.

It's decisions like that which lead me to suspect that equalizing glass-ceiling type issues just isn't on the agenda. If there were hard proof, of course there could be lawsuits and stuff, but what makes it insidious is that there isn't any hard proof, it's a long series of small inconsequential decisions.

I've seen it firsthand. They are sometimes very sneaky about it, excusing themselves with "different work descriptions" and "different levels of experience", but also relying on the fact that here, at least, salaries are frequently individually negotiated and so comparing numbers is made difficult.

Equal pay for equal work doesn't sound complicated but unless your work description--and your work--is very basic, it's easy to dodge.
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Offline odeon

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #67 on: December 16, 2013, 12:11:03 AM »
Then comes the higher level management. It is no small wonder that most of the people there are men. It is not to do with bias nor preference. It is simply that many women do not seek these positions in comparison to men OR once they are in these positions, drop out.

I disagree. While I'm sure that the numbers are nowhere near 50/50, there is a lifetime of cultural bias working against every level of a woman applying for or being selected in certain positions. I'm also fairly sure that while it's not always conscious, I do think that there is a preference. It is a sausage fest but not just in the way you describe.

As an example of the bias, consider the number of female Nobel Prize laureates in literature. I think the number of female published authors during the last century probably is roughly equal to the number of male published authors. It should then stand to reason that, if selected with some degree of objectivity, the number of female laureates during the same period should hint at similar proportions, provided that men aren't inherently better writers.

What do you suppose are the real numbers?
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Offline odeon

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #68 on: December 16, 2013, 12:16:13 AM »
What could I say? I feel your questions to me are similarly loaded and you are looking to me to provide answers that would have me look sexist or to support an ideology of suppression. I do not feel that either is fair or true.

I didn't read her comments that way, tbh.
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Offline odeon

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2013, 12:21:38 AM »
This shit is hateful, man. You can't tell me that even half of these stories are true, because that would mean that men in general actually are evil and dangerous savages, and that we really should be all locked up in cages and fed crackers and pieces of meat every now and then and just go OOOHH OHHH AAAHH AHHH *scratches ass*. And the very idea of that is ridiculous.

What if a third of them is true? A fourth? A fifth?

I don't doubt that there are both kinds, but I sincerely doubt you can tell the difference in each and every case.

Yes, even a fifth of the countless stories. If even a fifth of those are true, that means that all males should be purged or put in cages for the safety of superior women, Odeon.

 :LOL:

"Countless stories?"

I thought we were discussing a site you linked to. ::) Hyperbole is not going to help your already deeply flawed logic.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2013, 04:23:23 AM »
Then comes the higher level management. It is no small wonder that most of the people there are men. It is not to do with bias nor preference. It is simply that many women do not seek these positions in comparison to men OR once they are in these positions, drop out.

I disagree. While I'm sure that the numbers are nowhere near 50/50, there is a lifetime of cultural bias working against every level of a woman applying for or being selected in certain positions. I'm also fairly sure that while it's not always conscious, I do think that there is a preference. It is a sausage fest but not just in the way you describe.

As an example of the bias, consider the number of female Nobel Prize laureates in literature. I think the number of female published authors during the last century probably is roughly equal to the number of male published authors. It should then stand to reason that, if selected with some degree of objectivity, the number of female laureates during the same period should hint at similar proportions, provided that men aren't inherently better writers.

What do you suppose are the real numbers?

What the real numbers of nobel laureate females in management? I have no idea? I would suspect you may be right and they may not be 50/50

In my department, I mentioned that the females and males are approximately 50/50 split. Top 10 in any given month are heavily weighted to the men to maybe 8/2 or 9/1 or even 10/0. Why is that? They get the same encouragement and training and are selling the same products?

Now we could jump to blaming the society and talking of cultural bias or we could try to justify the results with pseudo-psychology and talk of the mental make up of women OR we could say what I say "The reason that the men in my department achieve better sales is because they generally work harder, more competitively and have more riding on their results on a personal and subjective level. They will do overtime any time they can get it. They will try to one up the guy next to them.

The women generally don't. They usually have no admin and do not make the same volume of errors the guys make. They do not place themselves under anywhere near the same amount of pressure and rarely do they cajole the person near them about their sales or whatever.

Now I do not suspect that precisely the same environment in sales as in management with exactly the same fundamental drives nor that the ladies in my workplace are representative of the females in management in any organisation. If this were representative though to what maybe happening then the 9/1 kind of statistics do not quite seem so alarming or worrying or the fault of men.

It would seem it is choice based. People have a right to make whatever choices they wish but if they make choices it should be acknowledged that they are choices.
If women collectively do not want to become Engineers for example, or I.T. or construction (Yes there are a small few who do and no doubt do very well) then is it their choice not to choose? Can we be generous enough to grant that they had the same choice as the men who chose to take it up? Can we not put down their choices to eternally "victimly" out of their control?
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Offline Pyraxis

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2013, 08:19:50 AM »
Where I work, the people who do insane amounts of overtime (outside of the last few months of a project) are generally young singles and people who are unhappy in their marriages. It doesn't have much to do with who has the biggest family to support. There are systemic factors in place to prevent people who would have a vested interest in impressing their bosses with the amount of overtime they work from going nuts (interns, contractors). Work-life balance has been a major issue for, oh the last ten years or so. It's common knowledge that the amount of useful work you get done between hours 10 and 20 in a given day is negligible compared to what you could accomplish if you went home to get some sleep. It would be considered foolish at best and a hazard at worst to make salaries or bonuses dependent on number of hours worked.

None of it has to do with men being more competitive than women.
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Offline TA

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2013, 08:40:12 AM »
"Near-rape" counts as sexual assault in most jurisdictions.


That's all I could come up with without reading the entire thread.
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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2013, 09:21:03 AM »
Where I work, the people who do insane amounts of overtime (outside of the last few months of a project) are generally young singles and people who are unhappy in their marriages. It doesn't have much to do with who has the biggest family to support. There are systemic factors in place to prevent people who would have a vested interest in impressing their bosses with the amount of overtime they work from going nuts (interns, contractors). Work-life balance has been a major issue for, oh the last ten years or so. It's common knowledge that the amount of useful work you get done between hours 10 and 20 in a given day is negligible compared to what you could accomplish if you went home to get some sleep. It would be considered foolish at best and a hazard at worst to make salaries or bonuses dependent on number of hours worked.

None of it has to do with men being more competitive than women.

Any of this may be true but it is not the point I was trying to make.
The point was down to choices. It is not honest and objective to overlook the choices people make. If I decide that I will not go for harder sales and sacrifice commission, that is a choice, I ought not then complain about my average commissions being less. If I do not work weekends and trade off the overtime for a once sleep in, I can not complain about a smaller pay cheque. If I wind down and log out just before shift instead of going hard at it until the end of my shift and then finishing up admin for last half san hour I will get smaller pay.
Al of these are choices and if any one whether as a gender, race, age range or whatever chooses these things then it ought not be be used as a thing to try to make a point about the race, gender or age group or whatever. It ought to simply be, these individuals made these choices, regardless of their gender or age or whatever.
I think when they look at a similar result in a group of women compared to men or contrasting different age groups or different cultures or whatever, trying to find justifications rarely is necessary.
If I can not bring myself to do overtime, work to and past closing and work for every commission I pay a price for my choice it need not be indicative of some bigger problem.
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: They were almost raped, guys.
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2013, 07:04:07 PM »
Yes, even a fifth of the countless stories. If even a fifth of those are true, that means that all males should be purged or put in cages for the safety of superior women, Odeon.

 :LOL:

C'mon, can't you see DFGL being behind some of those stories? That's the sort of behavior that causes problems. Not everyday guys going about their lives and flirting with girls. Nobody here's trying to lynch the whole gender.

I know no one -here- wants to kill all men. I was joking. ;)

Quote
C'mon, can't you see DFGL being behind some of those stories? That's the sort of behavior that causes problems. Not everyday guys going about their lives and flirting with girls.

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say in this part, Py. Can you paraphrase?
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"