When is the wearing of a 'burka' innopropriate ?

[bodie]

also,  no good if entering a beauty contest 

[RageBeoulve]

And many people would call me a horrible person for telling the woman what I really think, even though the people who would feel this way, would be the ones trying to "BAN BURKAS".

Its mystifying to me. What -is- that?

I'm not releasing my bite till I get an answer, guys.

[RageBeoulve]

Seriously. I will never stop asking. I will never legislate against people observing their beliefs or behaving how they feel is right. If I think they're being stupid I will LOUDLY tell them so, but I will not bar their path. They are responsible for their own actions, I reckon.

So tell me. Why are people trying so damn hard to have control over one another while at the same time telling people who see things the way that I do, that we are hateful and disrespectful?

Answer me. Extra interest points for an answer from someone like Adam or Genesis.

[bodie]

I don't see any real effort to prevent people from displaying beliefs or dressing as they want.  There is a very small minority seeking to ban the burka from all public places.  They are extremists and not supported by the majority of UK citizens.

There are instances where covering your face, which provides a level of anonymity, is just not practical.

Just to be clear - the UK government have no specific legislation on the burka.  They have stated they do not intend to impose any.

The law and the burka clashed when a court couldn't clarify who the person was wearing the burka.  The law does state that it must identify the correct person to whom it is seeking to deliver justice.

The government here has made it clear that it intends to not meddle with dress codes.  If a bank states customers will not be allowed entry unless the face is seen well then they see it as upto them. 

There is another angle, though, and that is the media feeds we get suggesting that a lot of young women are forced to wear these garments and that their use is to oppress them?

 

[RageBeoulve]

I don't see any real effort to prevent people from displaying beliefs or dressing as they want.  There is a very small minority seeking to ban the burka from all public places.  They are extremists and not supported by the majority of UK citizens

I didn't expect you to know, Bodie. You seem to have too much common sense. I do see that you took a long time to comment though, which probably means you really gave it some thought. I appreciate that you tried.

I will continue to look for the answer to this question though. What exactly IS that? Where does it come from?

[bodie]

What exactly IS that? Where does it come from?

What do you mean?

I took a long time to reply because I was listening to events unfold further on the news.  Some debate about hospitals, then another from a muslim woman saying the Burka is not really anything to do with Islam!  I wanted to get my head around all these issues before I commented further.

BTW a man was arrested somewhere in the north of England because he has a tattoo of a mosque on his chest with a clear image of an explosion and the words 'boom' written underneath!

  wondering  what he could be charged with?

[RageBeoulve]

What exactly IS that? Where does it come from?

What do you mean?

I took a long time to reply because I was listening to events unfold further on the news.  Some debate about hospitals, then another from a muslim woman saying the Burka is not really anything to do with Islam!  I wanted to get my head around all these issues before I commented further.

BTW a man was arrested somewhere in the north of England because he has a tattoo of a mosque on his chest with a clear image of an explosion and the words 'boom' written underneath!

  wondering  what he could be charged with?

wondering  what he could be charged with?

For crimes he -might- commit, of course.

What do you mean?

That is what I mean, actually. That kind of behavior. I don't even know what to call it, like a "holier than thou" attitude or something, but pockets of people have somehow garnered success in manipulating legislations and social engineering in order to make disassembling the human mind acceptable. Trends are surfacing that shame everything related to being a human being. Yes, many aspects of many societies now attempt to shame people's humanity.

Again. Dafuq is that?

[TheoK]

The UK is really sick 

[Gopher Gary]

Big news in the UK at the moment.  Muslim woman refuses to show her face in court and demands to make her 'plea' behind a burka!

This has sparked all sorts of discussions about whether a 'law' should be passed to determine exactly when and where the burka shouldn't be allowed.

My common sense view?   I would allow this woman to wear her burka in open court but not while giving evidence, and not while addressing the court in person.  It could be anyone under there! 

I hate to see people having laws imposed on them about what to wear however it does pose a security risk in certain circumstances.  Like passport checks at the airport for example.

I would also refuse to play poker against someone wearing one 

"When is the wearing of a 'burka' innopropriate ?"

"When you are in line to see your favourite Atheist speaker and you suspect the person in line behind, in a burka, you is actually a man and that they are strapped up with explosives and a small hand held transmitter"

"When you are nearing a checkpoint and you suspect the person in a burka, standing to the side of the checkpoint is actually a man and that they are strapped up with explosives and a small hand held transmitter"

"When after a big night out you are naked and trying to coerce the person you bought back to your hotel room, to get undressed and have sex with you, BUT in a moment of semi-lucidity you suspect the person in a burka, lying on the bed fully clothed, and giving you "come hither looks",  is actually a man and that they are strapped up with explosives and a small hand held transmitter"

Quit being so sexist, Al. Women want to bomb you to smithereens too. 

[conlang returns]

The BBC reported on this.  Saw it on GMT, I think.  I don't see any compelling public need to strip people of their burkas in court. 

The woman was able to be seen without the burka by a female officer of the court, and have her identity verified in that manner. 

I don't think it came up in this thread, but someone mentioned somewhere the jury ought to be able to observe non-verbal behavior of the person testifying.  I disagree with this assertion as well.  I am certain that non-verbal behavior can be used every bit as deceptively as spoken words, and in the case of persons who have unusual NVB it would naturally be impossible for anyone unfamiliar with that individual to know when they were lying. 

[Jack]

Would have to agree with Sir Les, in that encountering a fully cloaked person is creepy. Though in a court situation, like a jurist, it wouldn't matter. It could be assumed the courts have properly identified the identity of the witness; don't really need to know what they look like. Some people might not like the idea of the inability to read the facial expression of a witness. That makes sense too.

[Parts]

Changing your body language is extremely difficult as much of it is subconscious so it could be a diffident advantage for the person wearing one.   

[Jack]

Yes, that's why I said it makes sense that people want to be able to see that. It would just be more creepy for me than anything.

[Parts]

The whole burka concept is creepy to me

[conlang returns]

Changing your body language is extremely difficult as much of it is subconscious so it could be a diffident advantage for the person wearing one.

It's not easy, but it can still be done.  I would say that if the jury has to rely on its own perception of body language to determine if someone is lying, then opposing council is not doing its job.  The point of a cross-examination is to demonstrate a person's honesty, or at the very least the correctness of their previous testimony.  It's not the job of the jury, but of the lawyers arguing the case. 

Even when people have completely normal perception, their experience of another person's body language is still subjective, and I would want the adversarial system to rely on more objective phenomena.