One of the extremely unfortunate results of feminism.

[RageBeoulve]

I say most stats are biased.


My issue is with you telling schleed to come up with evidence....like you did.
I say...it is not evidence.

And you didn't read it. I didn't post a single statistic, and you're in here throwing your pro-feminist agenda around without even looking at any of the other arguments. At least Schleed recognizes it as a problem, although he thinks its a lot smaller than I do.

I say most stats are biased.

Yeah I know you emotional types hate statistics, so I DIDN'T POST ANY THIS TIME. And what do you know, you saw another "one of those meanie rage threads"  and then something occurred to you and was instantly true and you came in here to fling shit on everything without looking at it.

Feminism is very reasonable, at least when you're a raging faggot mangina.

[Beardy McFuckface]

I'm not saying I agree 100% with even normal feminism (I have issues with their stances on porn and the double standards do irritate me), however It is something that needs to be standardised and made logical. However, most people who would consider themselves "feminist" are not radical simply because even they're not hard lined on pornography and do wish for equality issues to be fixed for men too. They are only feminist by name, rather than subscribing literally to the whole ideology like radicals do. This is what I mean by feminism really being "gender equality" these days, as most issues women had years ago are not here anymore.

However, there is still a patriarchal system which is bad for both men and women, including the double standards that even feminists think is okay such as child support etc.

I believe in total equality between the sexes, however no real movement comes close to that, not even MRA. Efforts should be made to evolve normal feminism (which is already going this direction) into a general gender equality movement, to fix issues for both sides and to remove all the double standards and bullshit.

[RageBeoulve]

However, there is still a patriarchal system which is bad for both men and women, including the double standards that even feminists think is okay such as child support etc.

I believe in total equality between the sexes, however no real movement comes close to that, not even MRA. Efforts should be made to evolve normal feminism (which is already going this direction) into a general gender equality movement, to fix issues for both sides and to remove all the double standards and bullshit

I'm glad you recognize these "movements" as harmful. We can agree on that at least. It seems these supposedly well meaning people are incapable of carrying out social justice without securing "prizes" for themselves. You know what I mean? That will never bring about equality, and feminism, MRAs, atheism +, Tumblr radfems, etc are all full of fucking shit from where i'm standing. They only pretend to care about others. They're interested in how they appear, not in making change.

I fucking hate that.

[Beardy McFuckface]

At least we can agree to that, they are bullshit.

[RageBeoulve]

At least we can agree to that, they are bullshit.

Indeed. I think i'll write Penn about it. If I give him enough shit to talk about, maybe him and teller will make it an episode?

[Al Swearegen]

I actually think you frame it different to me. You see Radical feminists and feminists and that the radicals are loons and the feminists are really gender equality supporters by a different name.
The truth is the radical feminists are loons. Feminists are simply pro-women BUT some people actually have been conned by thinking that by supporting very reasonable ideals of gender equality (Like Erin Pizzey did/does) is feminism, and call themselves Feminists.
It neither makes them Feminists nor the cause they are supporting Feminism.
It would be like me celebrating Christianity and encouraging free love and homosexuality as being ok, but generally following so of the other stuff. I "could" call myself Christian still and join Christian rallies and the like BUT....well, you know.

[McGiver]

That's exactly what I'm saying.  Based upon this biased example most divorced men should be facing jail.
I'm saying it doesn't make sense. And this is not commonplace.

[Al Swearegen]

That's exactly what I'm saying.  Based upon this biased example most divorced men should be facing jail.
I'm saying it doesn't make sense. And this is not commonplace.

Well I can tell you that I personally had a very hard time with CSA in the past. I am 5 years from finished with them and fell behind because I was screwed over by my ex and carrying huge debt caused by having to pay for the cost of taking her to court to see my own children and still pay her child support whilst she keeps them from me and then have to cover these costs whilst having had a stress related heart attack and subsequent health issues as my body tried to call it a day. (Irony.....what caused the stress do you think?)

Now tell me. Is this REALLY unusual in its weighting against men or par for the course?

[McGiver]

That's exactly what I'm saying.  Based upon this biased example most divorced men should be facing jail.
I'm saying it doesn't make sense. And this is not commonplace.

Well I can tell you that I personally had a very hard time with CSA in the past. I am 5 years from finished with them and fell behind because I was screwed over by my ex and carrying huge debt caused by having to pay for the cost of taking her to court to see my own children and still pay her child support whilst she keeps them from me and then have to cover these costs whilst having had a stress related heart attack and subsequent health issues as my body tried to call it a day. (Irony.....what caused the stress do you think?)

Now tell me. Is this REALLY unusual in its weighting against men or par for the course?

is it the result of feminism?
Or the result of society taking men to task for (in the past) abusing and shirking their responsibility.

Life is cyclical al.  Imagine that social norms swing on a pendulum.  When it goes too far one way it inevitibly swings back the other.
Take ownership and work to affect change. Bitching won't solve a thing....well, maybe it'll make you feel better.

[Al Swearegen]

That's exactly what I'm saying.  Based upon this biased example most divorced men should be facing jail.
I'm saying it doesn't make sense. And this is not commonplace.

Well I can tell you that I personally had a very hard time with CSA in the past. I am 5 years from finished with them and fell behind because I was screwed over by my ex and carrying huge debt caused by having to pay for the cost of taking her to court to see my own children and still pay her child support whilst she keeps them from me and then have to cover these costs whilst having had a stress related heart attack and subsequent health issues as my body tried to call it a day. (Irony.....what caused the stress do you think?)

Now tell me. Is this REALLY unusual in its weighting against men or par for the course?

is it the result of feminism?
Or the result of society taking men to task for (in the past) abusing and shirking their responsibility.

Life is cyclical al.  Imagine that social norms swing on a pendulum.  When it goes too far one way it inevitibly swings back the other.
Take ownership and work to affect change. Bitching won't solve a thing....well, maybe it'll make you feel better.

No McJagger
i am not bitching I am giving good account of thinking what I think. You know, backing yourself. Though a good way to close down such discussion is to call someone out for not giving account of themselves OR convrersely if they DO give good account of themselves, call it "bitching"....Isn't that right? 

It doesn't really matter much to me. I have (like Autism Rights) a bit of investment but not a great deal. My boy turn 18 in less than 2 years and 3 years following, so will my girl. I am as financially comfortable as I have been in the last 15 years. So impact on me to rattle chains is limited.

What you have described is great in theory but not in this specific instances because of the inherent changes in society. To put it into context, it is like society going from Stone Age to Bronze Age and the way this will throw every aspect of life into limbo. New Rules are made and the Old Rules and norms are thrown out. You effectively have a new society with new foundations.

Women no longer NEEDED to stay home. "Well there was never any need in the first place because that was just male suppression"? No that is just more propaganda and history reinvention. It is one of many tidbits that keep resentment and a feeling of anti-male/patriarchy fires glowing. Truth is that every remedial culture needed this. I have written about it before. As long as men and women have existed there has been a strong instinct in both of them to find a mate of the opposite gender, have sex and raise children. It is not sexist or social conditioning or any of the bullshits feminists like to spout. Primal needs had then seek out the opposite gender and screw and then....well, quite often the pregnant girl or the child would die in childbirth. So if the whole tribe's survival counted on those which were likely not to be heavily laden with an unborn child or nursing a child and those who are physically stronger less susceptible to injury and more disposable.
Who are the women of the tribe going to point the finger at and who are the men going to point the finger at. We are not talking fair, we are talking the choices that are going to keep tour tribe surviving.
So men die by number going out hunting for the women. Here they learn to be competitive and silent. The women stay together in the cave in relative safety (except for the childbirth mortality thing) and learn to communicate and share and work together co-operatively.
That was relatively the same set up through the ages UNTIL Women rights movement/feminism BUT Women Rights Movement/feminism could NOT have worked were in not for some very important developments in contraception, infant and mother survival rates and such.
Yes there was resistance but the changes really were catalyst to these changes.
With such society changing and the tremendous effort at lies, misrepresentation, misinformation and power-mongering over the last 30 years, it is naive to think of this as a pendulum swing.
It is so inherent in our society that most people don't even recognise the bullshit from the truth because it has been said as "fact" for 20-30 years.

[McGiver]

I overused.  Blame my ADHD.

[Al Swearegen]

I overused.  Blame my ADHD.

Overused?

[McGiver]

I overused.  Blame my ADHD.

Overused?

Skimmed.

['andersom']

I'm with Schleed. Feminism is a wide terminology. It covers man hating groups, it covers women hating groups. Most of it is mainstream though. And, they do make a lot of sense. Not all of them. Really, feminists are just humans. But what I see in mainstream feminism is not only focusing on rights for women. Schleed has a point that by now mainstream feminism would be better off defining themselves as a gender movement. Because that is what the goal is, nowadays. They look at things from a gender perspective. And, then see that, the way things are, women, or men, can be at a disadvantage. And they want to address that. Mainstream feminism as I know it is not focused on rights of women only.

Radical feminism? Sure, there are idiots to be found. And prominent ones too. Just like there are idiots that make it to be prominent politicians. Politicians claiming pregnancies after rape prove the rape wasn't real rape and such. (Sorry, we had a politician like that in my country too, it jumped to mind)


And for things like childsupport being unfair, as Al pointed out. That is a bureaucratic system, probably once made to treat every man equal. After finding too many women without child-support. But, in creating this, the system became abusive in itself. By taking men as the target to get the money from. Is there no option of men taking care of the kids, and the women to pay alimony? And then by treating all men equal. Not all men are equal. There are men very willing to participate financially and physically in the upbringing of their kids. And there are men wanting to run away from that responsibility. Treating those two types of men equally is not fair. I see it as a bureaucratic failure.
Of course, a state collection system for alimony can be a good thing, if other options don't work. But, it should not be used by default.

Bureaucracy will make more failures, under the disguise of some freedom or right. A council not too far away from me wants to force single mothers who have not disclosed the name of the fathers to name them. Or they will lose part of their income. A plan to make this a default thing is going to be disastrous. It will help some men, who want to be part of the lives of their kids, but who are kept from their kids because of the whim of the mother. It happens. But, it will also put women and kids at risk, when the relationship was a very violent one. It is the default idea, complete with forced DNA testing they are thinking of, that makes it so dangerous. Tackling people by default ideas, telling it is good for the child, but in fact caring about money only, is not going to bring justice to anyone. This is not a feministic idea btw. It is a council, wanting to economise.

And Rage. Too many threads about how bad feminism is, and I just skip them. Only now and then, I decide to read one of them. And then I will probably react. But, may sigh and skip that option too.

['andersom']

Sploosh

possum, I think one of the unfortunate side effects of feminism is free love.  And that has lead to an explosion of teen pregnancy.  What do you think?

I think it is time for proper sex-education in schools. All should learn never to have their hands under the covers in bed. To always shower with a bathingsuit on too.