Author Topic: Fair treatment for Ed Snowden  (Read 1902 times)

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Offline odeon

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Re: Fair treatment for Ed Snowden
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2013, 02:58:16 AM »
The FRA runs their surveillance on a tiny scale. The FRA's disadvantage here (I think), apart from their more obvious relative lack of resources, is that they can't access most of the internet's backbone structure.

I'm pretty sure that they do break the law, though.

What annoys me with both is that they are both quick to assure that their citizens are protected against these intrusions, implying that everyone else isn't.

There are very few political boundaries on teh interwebz. This board's server, for instance, is located in the US but I am regularly backing up its contents outside it. The board's members come from all over the globe, from countries with differing laws and regulations, using internet providers with differing terms of service, and many of them conflicting with each other. Yet here we are, publishing information that may be stored on a US server but accessed and copied outside it by people outside the US jurisdiction.

To me, assuring that some are "protected" (what a silly word, in this context) and others aren't when listening to this kind of traffic is nonsensical. How would they know? Do we all carry virtual flags, waving them virtually while posting?

I suspect our governments hope we'll liken their eavesdropping to putting ears on physical walls and believing them that no, they wouldn't do that on their soil. It's perverted and obviously wrong. Surely they wouldn't.

But they don't know and often can't know where in the world those walls are. If we are to entertain this mental image of ears against physical walls, let's include every foreign embassy wall there is. Let's include every wall there is, with ears against every single one. And every time, the first question is, "whose wall is this?"

Ed Snowden is a hero.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

TheoK

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Re: Fair treatment for Ed Snowden
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2013, 03:06:18 AM »
 :agreed: :plus:

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Fair treatment for Ed Snowden
« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2013, 11:41:30 AM »
The FRA runs their surveillance on a tiny scale. The FRA's disadvantage here (I think), apart from their more obvious relative lack of resources, is that they can't access most of the internet's backbone structure.

I'm pretty sure that they do break the law, though.

What annoys me with both is that they are both quick to assure that their citizens are protected against these intrusions, implying that everyone else isn't.

There are very few political boundaries on teh interwebz. This board's server, for instance, is located in the US but I am regularly backing up its contents outside it. The board's members come from all over the globe, from countries with differing laws and regulations, using internet providers with differing terms of service, and many of them conflicting with each other. Yet here we are, publishing information that may be stored on a US server but accessed and copied outside it by people outside the US jurisdiction.

To me, assuring that some are "protected" (what a silly word, in this context) and others aren't when listening to this kind of traffic is nonsensical. How would they know? Do we all carry virtual flags, waving them virtually while posting?

I suspect our governments hope we'll liken their eavesdropping to putting ears on physical walls and believing them that no, they wouldn't do that on their soil. It's perverted and obviously wrong. Surely they wouldn't.

But they don't know and often can't know where in the world those walls are. If we are to entertain this mental image of ears against physical walls, let's include every foreign embassy wall there is. Let's include every wall there is, with ears against every single one. And every time, the first question is, "whose wall is this?"

Ed Snowden is a hero.

Well said, O-man.  :thumbup:
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Fair treatment for Ed Snowden
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2013, 11:44:28 AM »
Theoretically surveillance by the FRA should be as illegal here as  the surveillance by the NSA in the US:

"Instrument of Government

---

Physical integrity and freedom of movement


Art. 4. There shall be no capital punishment.

Art. 5. Everyone shall be protected against corporal punishment. No one may be subjected to torture or medical intervention with the purpose of extorting or suppressing statements.

Art. 6. Everyone shall be protected in their relations with the public institutions against any physical violation also other than under article 4. and 5. Everyone shall likewise be protected against body searches, house searches, and other such invasions of privacy, against examination of mail or other confidental correspondence, and against eavesdropping and the recordin of telephone conversations or other confidential communications.
  In addition to what is laid down in paragraph one, everyone shall be protected in their relations with the public institutions against significant invasion of their personal privacy, if these occur without their consent and involve the surveillance and systematic monitoring of the individual's personal circumstances."

The last sentence makes it almost ridiculously clear that the "FRA law" is a gross crime against the Swedish constitution.

Yeah see? You know what else? I'd be willing to bet that this spying shit is against the law almost everywhere in the world. Its pretty normal not to want to be treated like a piece of shit by the people you elect to be your voice.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"

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Re: Fair treatment for Ed Snowden
« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2013, 11:52:54 AM »
It's probably against the consitution in every country in Europe and in every country that has a constitution similar to European constitutions. It might not be illegal in Russia or China, but in every country we consider civilised it's most probably against the law.

Offline odeon

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Re: Fair treatment for Ed Snowden
« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2013, 11:53:46 AM »
I suspect it's illegal in Russia, too. :-\
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Offline RageBeoulve

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Re: Fair treatment for Ed Snowden
« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2013, 11:54:59 AM »
It's probably against the consitution in every country in Europe and in every country that has a constitution similar to European constitutions. It might not be illegal in Russia or China, but in every country we consider civilised it's most probably against the law.

Yeah I don't even think the reds would put up with that shit, Lit.
"I’m fearless in my heart.
They will always see that in my eyes.
I am the passion; I am the warfare.
I will never stop...
always constant, accurate, and intense."

  - Steve Vai, "The Audience is Listening"