I hope this guy doesn't have AS

[TheoK]

"Governments who ban or restrict guns do it so that the armed forces of respectively country could more easily slaughter civilians in the case of a public uprising, but since these laws seem to have the side-effect that the 0.0001% of those totally insane can't get guns without great efforts, these laws are morally acceptable."

Does that sound plausible?

[odeon]

Well, the idea seems to have gone horribly wrong because the simple fact is that guns don't protect the people against the state. Instead, those nasty little side effects happen.

I don't mind guns per se. I'd love to learn how to handle one properly and know from people I respect, both here and elsewhere, that in the right hands they can be both safe and fun. But at the same time I don't buy any of the protecting the people bullshit any more than I believe that giving the people the right to vote is enough to give them any actual power in a so-called democracy.

["couldbecousin"]

CBC is probably already on the top ten list.

Everyone knows weebles are unstable.

CBC is probably already on the top ten list.

Everyone knows weebles are unstable.

  That's just one more stereotype we Weebles have to combat!
  In reality we are exceptionally  stable, we wobble but we don't fall down.

  *sigh*  How much longer must my people fight for acceptance and understanding?

I have pictures of how carefully you climbed down the cliff stairs. Not that faith in your supposed stability. 

  I did an excellent job on those unsafe, crumbling stairs. 

[P7PSP]

And my point is that the 2nd amendment did not protect the people, in this instance. It's been used as an excuse many times, though.

The Constitution enumerates certain rights that people have and limitations on government powers. It was never intended to be about safety, it is about freedom and keeping government in check. Some Euros don't grok that and a lot of Americans, myself included, don't grok how a population can be pleased with having laws that criminalize stating a belief that the holocaust never happened or banning Tom Cruise from filming on location because he is a Scientologist.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson.

More criminals are shot by citizens than by police in this country. http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm When I did point a gun at someone back in 1986 I was outnumbered 3 to 1 by belligerent blacks who clearly did not like white people. The mouthy pack leader is who I pointed my Beretta 950BS Jetfire .25 ACP at. I believe that he understood very clearly that no matter what else happened that I was ready to kill him because he shut up and they left. I went home uninjured. If I am ever in another riot I do not intend to rely on sticks and bricks like in grade school and Junior high school. This is not just an academic question for me.

[P7PSP]

CBC is probably already on the top ten list.

Everyone knows weebles are unstable.

CBC is probably already on the top ten list.

Everyone knows weebles are unstable.

  That's just one more stereotype we Weebles have to combat!
  In reality we are exceptionally  stable, we wobble but we don't fall down.

  *sigh*  How much longer must my people fight for acceptance and understanding?

I have pictures of how carefully you climbed down the cliff stairs. Not that faith in your supposed stability. 

  I did an excellent job on those unsafe, crumbling stairs. 

Those stairs are precarious. 

[TheoK]

Well, the idea seems to have gone horribly wrong because the simple fact is that guns don't protect the people against the state. Instead, those nasty little side effects happen.

I don't mind guns per se. I'd love to learn how to handle one properly and know from people I respect, both here and elsewhere, that in the right hands they can be both safe and fun. But at the same time I don't buy any of the protecting the people bullshit any more than I believe that giving the people the right to vote is enough to give them any actual power in a so-called democracy.

I think that most people are idiots, but the solution is to educate them, not to make laws that enslave both the idiots and people who are able to think for themselves.

So you don't believe in direct democracy? You have critized Bush here many times, but it seems that you don't understand that most politicians are more or less psychopaths, who are just socially capable of doing a career.

The dilemma is that the power-hungry are psychopaths and "ordinary people" are dumb. The solution can not be to give the psychopaths more power but to educate the people and raise the general intelligence, awareness etc, so that the people will actually once have the real power.

[TheoK]

And my point is that the 2nd amendment did not protect the people, in this instance. It's been used as an excuse many times, though.

The Constitution enumerates certain rights that people have and limitations on government powers. It was never intended to be about safety, it is about freedom and keeping government in check. Some Euros don't grok that and a lot of Americans, myself included, don't grok how a population can be pleased with having laws that criminalize stating a belief that the holocaust never happened or banning Tom Cruise from filming on location because he is a Scientologist.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson.

More criminals are shot by citizens than by police in this country. http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm When I did point a gun at someone back in 1986 I was outnumbered 3 to 1 by belligerent blacks who clearly did not like white people. The mouthy pack leader is who I pointed my Beretta 950BS Jetfire .25 ACP at. I believe that he understood very clearly that no matter what else happened that I was ready to kill him because he shut up and they left. I went home uninjured. If I am ever in another riot I do not intend to rely on sticks and bricks like in grade school and Junior high school. This is not just an academic question for me.

I think that people in Northern and Western Europe simply can't comprehend the idea of the people having the actual power. They still seem to believe in the ideals of the absolute monarchy, which says that the people only get its right from the king, who in his turns got them from God, because they don't even accept the sheer questioning of the state's power over the individuals.

For some reason I never got an answer on my question whether it was right or not of that Jewish widow to give away her husbands guns before the Gestapo came and took her away for being murdered.

[ZEGH8578]

And my point is that the 2nd amendment did not protect the people, in this instance. It's been used as an excuse many times, though.

The Constitution enumerates certain rights that people have and limitations on government powers. It was never intended to be about safety, it is about freedom and keeping government in check. Some Euros don't grok that and a lot of Americans, myself included, don't grok how a population can be pleased with having laws that criminalize stating a belief that the holocaust never happened or banning Tom Cruise from filming on location because he is a Scientologist.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson.

More criminals are shot by citizens than by police in this country. http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm When I did point a gun at someone back in 1986 I was outnumbered 3 to 1 by belligerent blacks who clearly did not like white people. The mouthy pack leader is who I pointed my Beretta 950BS Jetfire .25 ACP at. I believe that he understood very clearly that no matter what else happened that I was ready to kill him because he shut up and they left. I went home uninjured. If I am ever in another riot I do not intend to rely on sticks and bricks like in grade school and Junior high school. This is not just an academic question for me.

I think that people in Northern and Western Europe simply can't comprehend the idea of the people having the actual power. They still seem to believe in the ideals of the absolute monarchy, which says that the people only get its right from the king, who in his turns got them from God, because they don't even accept the sheer questioning of the state's power over the individuals.

For some reason I never got an answer on my question whether it was right or not of that Jewish widow to give away her husbands guns before the Gestapo came and took her away for being murdered.

no people has real power, "people power" is just as much a myth as "global peace" or "the next step of collective evolution"
a _Certain_ power yes, always. a certain global peace, like we have now. a certain evolution, such as various forms of sexual selection (boobs in western societies continue to grow)

but humans need governing bodies, to lead the many. its our nature.

personally, i regard modern society as an error of nature. something not "meant to be", and a result of too much success.
nature always turns towards success - but has no "safety" against "too much success"

originally our authorities were very close to us. the tribal leader, who watched you grow up, litterally. the tribal elder, who has the tribe babies on his knee, and cuddles them. human authority is originally a protector, a source of safety.

but modern "tribes" have members counting in the millions, which is an absurd number. it is only "in theory" that all swedes form a group, since i find it highly unlikely you have actually met and befriended every swede there is, even less all swedes in power - governing the rest of sweden. this all is an error - but it is still as natural as it can be, as the alternative (no authorities) would be even further from our nature, than the situation we are in right now.

[Zippo]

I don't get how gun ownership threatens politicians?

Your politicians in the US are under more control than ours, are they?

And you dont seem to get it. I'm not BLAMING the gun. Obviously an inanimate object doesnt shoot someone of its own accord. But give a psycho a gun, and he's a lot more dangerous than he was without it

I for one am glad we have strict gun control here

and i dont think your political situation is any better than ours just because your ppl have guns. so how is it a threat to politicians? surely it's usually civilians getting shot?

the case may be different in this situation but generally there are blocks in place to prevent psychos from getting ahold of guns. in a few states in the us i would not be able to buy a gun because my psych simply therised i had bipolar. a vary minor case was the theroy but the fact is the theroy was i still had it... i could easily get around it though. i know about 10-12 people with guns whom i trust and who trust me, now dont get me wrong i dont plan on killing anyone but i know if i did who had there firearms regestered and who would let me borrow one TO do the job. knowingly or not.

its not the systems thats in place. no system is full proof. its simply the psycho who was there. criminals cary guns in the UK too i have no doubt. maybe its not as common but im sure it still happens.

[Icequeen]

I truly believe if some nutjob wants to go off and kill people, he's going to find a way to do it.

His or her access (or inaccess) to a firearm isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in the long term picture.

If you can't get one legally, you can steal one from someone who has one or buy it illegally. You can make your own bomb, get 10 gallons of gas and light yourself a bonfire..a large enough truck or a small plane is a weapon in itself.

This guy rigged his whole apartment with explosives, they're still trying to disarm them and reports say it may take days to do so. I think he could have easily built something and blown the whole theater up if he had wanted to.

We're animals...animals are never predictable with 100% certainty unless you can read their minds.

[TA]

There is talk going around the internet that he does have AS, and that the defense may use it to get an insanity plea. Well, there goes the gun rights of our section of the population.

[odeon]

And my point is that the 2nd amendment did not protect the people, in this instance. It's been used as an excuse many times, though.

The Constitution enumerates certain rights that people have and limitations on government powers. It was never intended to be about safety, it is about freedom and keeping government in check. Some Euros don't grok that and a lot of Americans, myself included, don't grok how a population can be pleased with having laws that criminalize stating a belief that the holocaust never happened or banning Tom Cruise from filming on location because he is a Scientologist.

My comment was meant as a reply to TA and later Lit, not as something explaining what your constitution was or was not intended to be about.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson.

More criminals are shot by citizens than by police in this country. http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm When I did point a gun at someone back in 1986 I was outnumbered 3 to 1 by belligerent blacks who clearly did not like white people. The mouthy pack leader is who I pointed my Beretta 950BS Jetfire .25 ACP at. I believe that he understood very clearly that no matter what else happened that I was ready to kill him because he shut up and they left. I went home uninjured. If I am ever in another riot I do not intend to rely on sticks and bricks like in grade school and Junior high school. This is not just an academic question for me.

If the US gun laws worked better than the European ones, wouldn't it show? Wouldn't countries with severe restrictions on firearms have more crime?

I browsed the net for some statistics but found nothing to support such notions. I did find this, putting the US in some not very flattering company, but more disturbingly, I also stumbled upon this report. Among other things, it says this about gun-related violence on minors in the US:

In 2006 alone, the 3,184 children and teens killed by firearms nearly equaled the total number of U.S. combat deaths in Iraq since the war started and were more than five times the number of American combat fatalities in Afghanistan.

Yes, I understand about wanting to protect yourself and this not being an academic issue for you, but I can't help wondering if there would be less need for protection with stricter gun laws.

[bodie]

I have never liked the idea that someone could break into my home, and, because they are already on the wrong side of the law, they may have a shooter with them.   The law here is so fucked, that if my dog bit the thief, the thief could prosecute me and have my dog put to sleep.

Ok, i may be able to get away with using a kitchen knife or some other kitchen utensil, as a self defence, but these are close combat weapons.  I am 5ft 2,  and i weigh about 8.5 stone - i don't wanna be in a struggle like that!  I wanna be able to shoot the mo fo's in the back as they try and escape!

To be honest,  me running down stairs half asleep with my 'banshee morning hair' waiving a potato peeler at a robber is hardly going to bring any satisfactory result.  I would probably baracade me and the boy in the bedroom, if it really happened and sit there cowering like a victim until they had gone.  I don't like that thought. 

[skyblue1]

I have never liked the idea that someone could break into my home, and, because they are already on the wrong side of the law, they may have a shooter with them.   The law here is so fucked, that if my dog bit the thief, the thief could prosecute me and have my dog put to sleep.

Ok, i may be able to get away with using a kitchen knife or some other kitchen utensil, as a self defence, but these are close combat weapons.  I am 5ft 2,  and i weigh about 8.5 stone - i don't wanna be in a struggle like that!  I wanna be able to shoot the mo fo's in the back as they try and escape!

To be honest,  me running down stairs half asleep with my 'banshee morning hair' waiving a potato peeler at a robber is hardly going to bring any satisfactory result.  I would probably baracade me and the boy in the bedroom, if it really happened and sit there cowering like a victim until they had gone.  I don't like that thought. 

yummy. I love shorter  women they are delicious with a ranch dressing and tomatos

[Parts]

I truly believe if some nutjob wants to go off and kill people, he's going to find a way to do it.

His or her access (or inaccess) to a firearm isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in the long term picture.

If you can't get one legally, you can steal one from someone who has one or buy it illegally. You can make your own bomb, get 10 gallons of gas and light yourself a bonfire..a large enough truck or a small plane is a weapon in itself.

This guy rigged his whole apartment with explosives, they're still trying to disarm them and reports say it may take days to do so. I think he could have easily built something and blown the whole theater up if he had wanted to.

We're animals...animals are never predictable with 100% certainty unless you can read their minds.

Back in 1990 a guy in NYC killed 87 doing just that in a basement social club.  Nuts will always find a way.