Spasticity 2.0

[Al Swearegen]

@Les. No. Odeon is not currently doing anything.

That is why I felt it was a good idea to try and find out, in a civil manner what Odeon felt that I done to Pandora that merrited his response.
Im not looking to argue with him. I just want him to help me understand what I done.

Im sure you would be able to tell me why you have an issue with me, but for now at least, Im only looking for Odeon to answer the question.

Currently...or even "ever" tried to whip the site innto moral outrage" or "ever" "try and whip up the site against me yo teach me some kind of lesson".
He does not do it currently, and indeed he has not ever done it. You throw it out there though. He disagreed with you. He was not trying to turn the site against you nor was "completely morally outraged", nor was "policing the site" nor any of the other over exaggerated misrepresentations you have made. Why are you still makling them?
 

[odeon]

OK. As you say, in good faith. Please know that I don't want to start anything, either, because what I'm going to write here is not going to sound very nice. Also, I'm not going for the exact time frames because I can't be bothered to look up every quote, OK? But here's the gist of the whole thing how I saw it and as it pertains to you.

And this is going to be long, so I apologise in advance.

When you first brought up Pandora (as in, insulted her), it was in a context with heated emotions and a TCO that was being a cunt and having a meltdown of epic proportions. He has a history of those things so no biggie, but he did produce some really nasty language, insulting just about everything in sight. You responded in kind. No biggie either.

(I have been there myself with TCO, btw. Lots of foul language, sure, but I can't recall insulting anyone but him, and I eventually contacted him via email and managed to calm things down.)

When you were called out by Sir Les, your reaction was what made me react. He told you his reasons and basically suggested the decent thing for you to do, and you went back and forth with it a few times but I could see no regret from you, nothing that showed that you thought an apology (to Pandora) was in any way warranted. At first I think you made it clear that you had done nothing wrong but later you agreed that it might have been a bad thing but no apology was necessary.

To no small part, you said then, just as you do now, because TCO had said worse things. And he had, a lot worse. But that's a schoolyard argument and I had thought you smarter than that. And actually, in that thread and elsewhere, it was clear that you are, you just didn't care and that made you look really bad. From having had the moral upper hand, you now seemed downright nasty, someone who seemed to be willing to go just a step or two further, and that was what made me react.

And then you called Sir Les out and to me that made you look nastier still. From not appearing to understand why you should apologise to a calculated attempt at rewriting the whole thing.

Before TCO had returned from his self-imposed ban, people were already making sure that there would be no cooling down here. Then, just as earlier and just as during what followed here and at FB, IMO you went a little bit further than others, just a little nastier, subtly but perceptibly, and again, there was no regret.

Of course I was already annoyed and possibly looking for that specific kind of behaviour but I though it was there.

Thing is, TCO was unstable when he returned, an easy target, and you all made it worse very quickly. He may have had it coming but he was ganged up on and I think the sentiment was in the lines of "he's going to have a meltdown sooner or later anyway, so why wait?" He was, but this particular drama was more like taking candy from a 5-yo. You all knew what was going to happen. That is what I meant when I said he was an "unworthy" target.

Once Pandora had seemed to reply at FB she was made a legitimate target and a rewrite seemed to take place to make it sound as if she had been in an active participant from the start. Goalposts were shifted and strawmen invented. This is from my POV, of course, how I saw it, but remember that you did ask.

Yes, several people joined the so-called posse, but they all had another think about it when all this was pointed out. Everyone but you, that is. There was a willingness to reconsider and to reflect. You, however, made it clear that you saw no reason to. "Yes, it was bad, BUT..."

That same behaviour I think you displayed when Bint called you out. While others were derailing a thread, you were just a bit nastier, pushing things just a little more. To me it looked like the only reason you did it was because you could.

I don't believe you are bad, Butterflies, but I don't understand this aspect of your behaviour. My mum taught me that if two people fight, you can practically never just blame one of them. Both are to blame. Most people seem to acknowledge this--they are willing to reconsider and admit that sure, they were wrong, too, and say sorry--but not you.

And that is the gist of it. So you see, it is as with mostly anything, it is not just one thing, it is several things combined over time.

I hope I managed better this time.

[Edited for clarity]

['Butterflies']

@Odeon. Yes. That is a lot clearer, so thanks.
Some of what you write is very true, and some of it isnt.
It does, for the first time, give me the basis for understanding your POV.

Im in the bath, posting from my phone, but when I get out I'll adress the points you have made, both the ones you are right about, and the ones you are wrong about.

[odeon]

OK. I was unsure if I should reply at all but it bothered me that maybe I hadn't been clear after all, earlier, and thought you deserved another attempt.

['Butterflies']

I'll try and address the points in order. Once again, this will be an essay, so sorry.


When Les called me out over saying to Steve that Pandora was rancid: IMO it was a small insult, aimed at someone I detest(Steve). Yes it was clearly a bit wrong, but nothing I felt the need to apologize over. It was only when it got back to Pandora that I was bothered by it. I wouldn't want, or need Steve to apologize for wishing my family dead. IMO both insults are simply just meaningless insults, thrown out to attempt to wind up the opponent. I dislike Steve, but not because of any of the insults he threw at me.
Now that I have interacted with Pandora, I feel absolutely no remorse at what I have said.

I'm someone who is willing to go a step or to further: That is very true. I do have a fairly serious behaviour boundary issue. The same also applies to my sense of humour. It has affected me my whole life, from punching my head teacher to getting involved in fights against groups of people.
This is something that people have to accept if they are my friend. Sadly, it is unlikely to change anytime in the forseeable future, and TBH the only way I can control this issue is by going into a shell and not showing any personality.
I am sorry I'm like this, but there is nothing I can do about it.


I made a calculated attempt to rewrite things: No, it certainly was not calculated. IMO a callout is a way for someone to attack someone elses behaviour, and for the person who is called out, to defend their behaviour.
I thought Les' behaviour was shit, so I called him out. It made sense to me. Les calling out me was for him to attack my behaviour. Me calling him out was for me to attack his behaviour. It certainly wasn't nasty. Just my way of dealing with things, and also, I was "melting down" at the time. IIRC it was either the day, or the day before I called out Calavera for a minor issue, and then left the site.



I attacked TCO after his self-imposed exile: If we're speaking of the same self-imposed exile, then that is not true at all. I gave you my word that I would lay off Steve, as long as he did not attack me. As soon as he returned to the site, he started making attacks on me. I logged on to the site and saw that Steve was back, and that he had made several posts about me. I was well within my rights to attack him after that.


Before TCO had returned from his self-imposed ban, people were already making sure that there would be no cooling down here:  Perhaps, but I wasn't one of them. Remember, I had only just returned to the site after erm... leaving . When I returned, Steve had left. I doubt if iI even mentioned him until he returned and attacked me.



Steve was ganged up on: Maybe, but that wasn't really my fault. I attacked Steve because of my issues with him. Others may have jumped on the bandwagon. I am in no position to tell people that they can't fight Steve because I'm already fighting him.
A similar situation would be our recent argument. Pyraxis was pretty quick to jump on your bandwagon, even though she had no idea what was even going on. That isn't your fault, even though she was fighting on your side.



Once Pandora had seemed to reply at FB she was made a legitimate target: No. This is absolutely not true. I have never attacked Pandora on FB at all. I was a picture of civillity towards her on FB. I was well aware that any attack would be viewed badly by the people on the FB group, and I made sure that I never made any kind of attack on her. I pointed out her lies, and told people what Steve was really like. I did not say anything even remotely mean to her.
Here is a link to the group https://www.facebook.com/groups/5378779911/ If you do a search for the posts of "Lorna Smith," you will see that I am telling the truth.
I did bitch about her on this site, and make fun of her here. On this occasion I'm amazed you think I went further than the rest of the people. After all, Binty was the only person who chose to post her personal pictures from FB.

Yes, several people joined the so-called posse, but they all had another think about it when all this was pointed out. Everyone but you, that is. There was a willingness to reconsider and to reflect. You, however, made it clear that you saw no reason to. "Yes, it was bad, BUT..."

That is because I never done anything to her on FB. I had no reason to reflect on anything.

That same behaviour I think you displayed when Bint called you out. While others were derailing a thread, you were just a bit nastier, pushing things just a little more. To me it looked like the only reason you did it was because you could.

There's slightly more to this, but I'm in no position to say what it is.
I got no pleasure from it, and would have prefered not to have been involved.

I don't believe you are bad, Butterflies, but I don't understand this aspect of your behaviour. My mum taught me that if two people fight, you can practically never just blame one of them. Both are to blame. Most people seem to acknowledge this--they are willing to reconsider and admit that sure, they were wrong, too, and say sorry--but not you.

I went to reasonable lengths during my argument with Steve to make clear to everyone that I was not the innocent party, and was equally to blame as him.
I was never in a fight with Pandora.

I don't see the point of apologizing to someone I detest, for something that I see as minor. IMO, apologizing is asking someone for forgiveness. If I do not desire forgiveness from that person, then I see no point in apologizing.
I am very aware of my faults, and am very quick to apologize when I am wrong, if I care about the persons views. I do not care for Steve or Pandoras views, or whether they forgive me, so I would not apologize to them. To do so would be fake IMO.




Feel free to question me on any of my answers.

Also, I would like you to think about 2 things for me.

1. Do you think your behaviour towards me over the 2 weeks was reasonable, especially when you could have put your views to me in a reasonable manner, and been responded to in a reasonable manner?

2. Do you want me to leave the site? I am not some feeble troll who gets a kick out of being unwelcome on a site. I know I won't be banned, so I'm giving you the option to politely say that I don't fit into your plans for this site. If so, I will be happy to request deletion, and never be seen here again.
TBH I would strongly prefer to be politely told to fuck off, than be tolerated on a site where I am not welcome.

[Parts]

This is getting very old and boring except the part about you posting from your phone while in the bath and without photos that is getting there too.  Dragging this out any longer or debating it any further is just    . It's a disagreement people have them all the time move on all the posting in the world will not change anyone's opinion and believe me everyone knows where both sides stand.     

['Butterflies']

This is getting very old and boring except the part about you posting from your phone while in the bath and without photos that is getting there too.  Dragging this out any longer or debating it any further is just    . It's a disagreement people have them all the time move on all the posting in the world will not change anyone's opinion and believe me everyone knows where both sides stand.   

If you had spent the best part of two weeks having your decency as a person constantly called into question, would you not want to find out what you stood accused of?

I'm doing it in a perfectly civil and decent way, and I'm not creating drama, so I'm not really sure why you would have any problem with me and Odeon attempting to work out any problems we have.
Up until today, I have had no chance to respond to any accusations, because I did not know what the accusations were.

[Parts]

This is getting very old and boring except the part about you posting from your phone while in the bath and without photos that is getting there too.  Dragging this out any longer or debating it any further is just    . It's a disagreement people have them all the time move on all the posting in the world will not change anyone's opinion and believe me everyone knows where both sides stand.   

If you had spent the best part of two weeks having your decency as a person constantly called into question, would you not want to find out what you stood accused of?

I'm doing it in a perfectly civil and decent way, and I'm not creating drama, so I'm not really sure why you would have any problem with me and Odeon attempting to work out any problems we have.
Up until today, I have had no chance to respond to any accusations, because I did not know what the accusations were.

I have no problems with it other than it's boring as fuck and it's sucking the fun out of posting.  I can not see how it took you this long or had to have it explained in such detail to figure it out as it was fairly clear from the start.     Re-engagement is a favored tactic of my kids and it drives me crazy.  Right, wrong,  good , bad it doesn't matter move on just because you two have disagreements does not mean you are not welcome here

[Pyraxis]

All right, I'm going to answer this too.

1. Do you think your behaviour towards me over the 2 weeks was reasonable, especially when you could have put your views to me in a reasonable manner, and been responded to in a reasonable manner?

Yes, because I had no reason to believe that you would respond in a reasonable manner. At the point I challenged you, I was operating on limited information. It is what it is. The only way I could know how far you would take things is by seeing you do it.

2. Do you want me to leave the site? I am not some feeble troll who gets a kick out of being unwelcome on a site. I know I won't be banned, so I'm giving you the option to politely say that I don't fit into your plans for this site. If so, I will be happy to request deletion, and never be seen here again.
TBH I would strongly prefer to be politely told to fuck off, than be tolerated on a site where I am not welcome.

No. I say you are welcome here.

However. If you cross the line again and take things too far, to the point of people deciding to leave the site, or to the point of using the site as a staging ground against people who have already left, then that's my personal limit. From that point on, I'll work against you.

I don't want you to have to go into a shell and I wouldn't ask that. However I don't want to see your behavioral issues harm people who no longer agree to the terms of I².

[P7PSP]

You must think I done something terrible to Pandora. I still dont have a clue what Ive done, and Im just asking you to tell me, and to explain what was so bad that you appeared to try and hound a girl not even half your age from the site.

A girl?!  And not even half his age?! How dare odeon argue with the weaker sex. And a young one at that! ZOMG odeon! WTF is wrong with you thinking that young females should not be given special dispensation?

[Frolic_Fun]

From that point on, I'll work against you.

Aren't you the one who worked against Odeon and i2 for petty reasons? Aren't you the one that logged on from time to time simply to shit-stir rather than to defend?

I'm sorry, I said I was going to stay out of this drama but this reeks of hypocrisy. At least be honest about your agenda.


On an unrelated note, I can relate to butterflie's personality. I stir shit and act like a cunt most of the time, at times went much further than what she did to Pandora (ie. Penty, Bint, WP trolling). The weird thing is, most of you don't seem to care when I do this kind of shite, especially the more backstabbing stuff towards people you like, while she gets essays and callouts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like double standards to me.

So this is what I have to ask you, what makes her actions different from mine when to me they're similar?

['Butterflies']

This is getting very old and boring except the part about you posting from your phone while in the bath and without photos that is getting there too.  Dragging this out any longer or debating it any further is just    . It's a disagreement people have them all the time move on all the posting in the world will not change anyone's opinion and believe me everyone knows where both sides stand.   

If you had spent the best part of two weeks having your decency as a person constantly called into question, would you not want to find out what you stood accused of?

I'm doing it in a perfectly civil and decent way, and I'm not creating drama, so I'm not really sure why you would have any problem with me and Odeon attempting to work out any problems we have.
Up until today, I have had no chance to respond to any accusations, because I did not know what the accusations were.

I have no problems with it other than it's boring as fuck and it's sucking the fun out of posting.  I can not see how it took you this long or had to have it explained in such detail to figure it out as it was fairly clear from the start.     Re-engagement is a favored tactic of my kids and it drives me crazy.  Right, wrong,  good , bad it doesn't matter move on just because you two have disagreements does not mean you are not welcome here

No it wasn't clear. A lot of stuff was said, and a lot of it made no sense. I've kinda explained why it was hard for me to understand a lot of the accusations, and to explain again would sound like I was attacking Odeon.

Whilst I appreciate that you probably have no desire to see me leave, I'm not so sure your feelings are unanimous.
This wasn't a disagreement I had with Odeon. It was slightly more than that. A lot of stuff has been said that goes well beyond a disagreement.

It's not a callout, really, just a little learning experience for Butterflies. I doubt Sir Les is interested in continuing his thread.

And the fuss I create now is nothing in comparison, but important, nevertheless. I think it's necessary for her to find out about how things are on the receiving end for a change.

Isn't as much fun to be on the receiving end, is it?

That's the thing, really. If her behaviour was to become the norm, I think we would all lose.

This isn't the words of someone having a simple disagreement. This is somebody who is making no secret of the fact that they are deliberately trying punish me to "teach me a lesson."
That goes well beyond a disagreement. If it's still Odeons goal to "teach me what it's like to be on the recieving end," then it would be much better all round if he just asked me to leave the site.

I'm unlikely to change as a person in the near future, and I have absolutely no intention of attempting to change myself to better fit in on an internet forum. This is who I am.

To begin with, I loved this site because I felt like my issues with taking things too far had found a place where they fitted in, and for a while they did. This part of my personality will not change. I will do it again and again, whether I want to or not.
If this is going to result in punishment by the owner of the site, then the decent thing to do would be to tell me politely that my behaviour does not fit in here. I would have no problem with that.

['Butterflies']

However I don't want to see your behavioral issues harm people who no longer agree to the terms of I².

What former members of intensity have I harmed?

['Butterflies']

Yes, because I had no reason to believe that you would respond in a reasonable manner. At the point I challenged you, I was operating on limited information. It is what it is. The only way I could know how far you would take things is by seeing you do it.

So you're saying that you had limited information, but you still decided to attack me for no reason to see how I would react.
That is beyond fucked-up. That is fucking deranged

[Scrapheap]

@Les. No. Odeon is not currently doing anything.

That is why I felt it was a good idea to try and find out, in a civil manner what Odeon felt that I done to Pandora that merrited his response.
Im not looking to argue with him. I just want him to help me understand what I done.

Im sure you would be able to tell me why you have an issue with me, but for now at least, Im only looking for Odeon to answer the question.

Sir Les does a good job of butting in when you're not talking to him.

He needs the ahtenshun!