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Offline Calavera

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Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« on: August 25, 2011, 06:30:31 PM »
Please do not answer this problem if you already know from before.

Here's a nice brainteaser for you all. I'm writing in my own words, so feel free to ask for any clarifications if needed.

There are 5 autistic men trained to act in certain ways.

Four of them are socially trained to be Togglers while the fifth is trained to be the one and only Truthteller.

The Truthteller always tells you the truth. He never lies to you.

The Toggler alternates between saying the truth and lying. One statement coming out of his mouth may be either a lie or not, but the next statement is always the opposite, and the next statement after that is like the first, and so on.

Your objective in this brainteaser is to figure out which one is the Truthteller by asking two questions to only one of them.

What questions would you ask?

A hint: Your second question does not have to be defined before you start asking the random person your first question. It may depend on what the person answers for your first question.

Free karma to the first person who solves it properly.

Osensitive1

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2011, 06:37:45 PM »
Sorry, Mcalavera; messing it up already.

To man number one:

Are you the truth teller?

Who is the truth teller?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 06:47:58 PM by Jack »

Offline Calavera

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2011, 06:39:43 PM »
You need to ask two questions to one of them to figure out who the Truthteller is.

You can't find out by just that one question.

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2011, 07:21:20 PM »
Fixed.

Offline Calavera

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2011, 07:24:47 PM »
Sorry, Mcalavera; messing it up already.

To man number one:

Are you the truth teller?

Who is the truth teller?

What if it was an initially honest Toggler who you ended up asking?

He will honestly answer "no" to the first and lie to the second question. And you won't know who the Truthteller is.

Not saying that you're completely wrong. But keep in mind you need to list all necessary variations of the second question (since the second question has to depend on the varying answer to the first question).

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 07:38:41 PM »
First ask who are all the 4 togglers point to them in your answer, then ask who is the truthteller and point to them. This is presuming that the togglers must know all information that's required and must strictly follow the truth/lie or lie/truth oscillation and can alternate within the same question by distinct sentences, without invoking a contraction within one or two statements adjoining and thereby violate the rules (like they can't say two lies in two statements in a row or have a half-truth answer, must be truth or lie) and can be allowed to answer by pointing instead of talking (but even with talking it's still possible too).

I've invoked a contradiction of rules if he tries to start with a lie/truth with a four statement method; because the toggler will be forced to tell the truth two statements in a row (as there's only one truthteller, and I'm asking for four inputs). Even if they try to break the statements into three statements, it must strictly be truth-lie-truth to not invoke a contradiction, and the second answer is virtually unnecessary. No matter how he does it he cannot do it without invoking a truthful statement at some point and cannot proceed with that method of purely lying.

The only way they can avoid this contradiction other than what I corrected before is to cite all the names as one or two statements, and be forced to be truthful with one of them about it. However trying to play it as two statements will look awkward and why would you single out a person from a explicit list? He can only say, "Those three. Oh him as well" basically. So depending on whenever or not it's one, two or three statements:

* If he says, "Oh it's him, him, him, him" as one statement (bear in mind this can only be truthful), then the second answer will show a contradiction by citing the same name twice and the one never mentioned is the truth teller. But you don't even really need the second answer anyway because he's forced to confess he's one too using this method. The second question is merely insurance.
* If he says, "Oh it's him, him, him. Also him too" as two statements, the singled out person is the truthteller and the second answer isn't really necessary but to confirm the person I'm talking too isn't the truthteller, but then the phrasing of statements alone shows him obeying the toggler rule anyway.
* If he says, "Oh it's him, him. Also him. Also him" as three statements, and he attempts to say he's the truthteller why did he need to split up those names? So it's obvious he's lying and thus the truth teller is the middle statement as the first and last statements must be truths, the other way around results in a contradiction of rule. The same applies if he says any other name because of the way he phrased those statements, and it must follow the truth-lie-truth sequence to not contradict the rules.

By statements, I presume you mean they must be like sentences, and thereby noticeably separate or that's just cheating.

However, in the Truthteller's case, he'll tell me who the others togglers are as one unbroken statement and himself is the truthteller without trouble or invoking a contradiction.

I think I broke/solved the brainteaser by accident by trying to be a smartass. :zoinks:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:53:20 PM by ProfessorFarnsworth »
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.

Osensitive1

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 07:40:26 PM »
Who are the togglers? Very smart, professor.

Osensitive1

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 08:02:58 PM »
Was also thinking the first question could be something the asker knows, like what does 1+1 equal. Then who are the togglers.

Osensitive1

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 08:09:34 PM »
Was also thinking the first question could be something the asker knows, like what does 1+1 equal. Then who are the togglers.
Now thinking that might only identify if the person questioned is lying or telling the truth, but not really identifying the truth teller if it's not the one questioned.

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2011, 08:16:34 PM »
Was also thinking the first question could be something the asker knows, like what does 1+1 equal. Then who are the togglers.
Now thinking that might only identify if the person questioned is lying or telling the truth, but not really identifying the truth teller if it's not the one questioned.

The real problem then is whenever or not multiple statements can be used to answer one question. Hence why my answer is complicated. But I proved that just knowing the rules empowers your judgement to read between the lines of how they answer that first question. 8)

Only drawback is that it makes the assumption that half-truths are not allowed. But MCalavera never explicitly stated they can tell both a truth and a lie, embellish or show ambiguity leaning either way within the same statement.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:23:51 PM by ProfessorFarnsworth »
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.

Osensitive1

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 08:23:58 PM »
Am assuming it's cut and dry; alternating full truth and lie from the togglers.

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2011, 08:31:35 PM »
You need to ask two questions to one of them to figure out who the Truthteller is.

You can't find out by just that one question.

I beg to differ with my question. Read my answer lol. :zoinks:

Am assuming it's cut and dry; alternating full truth and lie from the togglers.

I presume so because here's what MCalavera said:

Quote
The Toggler alternates between saying the truth and lying. One statement coming out of his mouth may be either a lie or not, but the next statement is always the opposite, and the next statement after that is like the first, and so on.

This mean they may start off either lying or telling the truth, but every subsequent statement must be opposite in nature to it's previous one.

So basically, start of with a lie, then it's truth, lie, truth, lie, and so on.

He didn't mention anything about the same statement being capable of harboring both, otherwise why bother specifying such switching rules? It would render the switching rule useless if wasn't so cut and dry.
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.

Osensitive1

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2011, 08:43:49 PM »
Your who are togglers question is the key. First ask, are you a toggler? If the answer is no, then it's either the truth teller or a lying toggler. Either way, the next answer will be true, so if the answer is no then the second question should be, who is the truth teller? If the answer to the first question is yes, then it has to be a toggler telling the truth, because the truth teller would answer no. Since the second answer will be a lie, the second question should be, who else is a toggler?

Oh, and don't be messing with my karma. :P

Offline Calavera

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 08:52:49 PM »
Woah, give me some time to process your post, Professor. :autism:

5 minutes.

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: Brainteaser: The Truthteller and the Togglers
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 08:55:06 PM »
Woah, give me some time to process your post, Professor. :autism:

5 minutes.

Sorry, and may I warn you, it's an utter mess. I just hope I at least got the principle explained enough. To sum it up, it's about asking that first question and reading between the lines of how the person answers. Due to their rules, togglers will give themselves away by obeying their rules.
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.