Author Topic: People's views regarding transpeople  (Read 16509 times)

0 Members and 11 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Parts

  • The Mad
  • Caretaker Admin
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 37468
  • Karma: 3061
  • Gender: Female
  • Who are you?
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #420 on: April 28, 2011, 02:27:44 PM »
oh and for the record, I am NOT in any way trying to play down what's happened to renaeden here. I think anyone who knows how much my family concerns me in all this will know that - the effect on family of trans people is not something I take lightly at all

I just don't see how GA is being any more selfish than should be expected of anyone in her position

He is being a self-important cunt. Like Callaway I knew him as a man long before I was made aware of him being trans. GA remained a he because that is I learned to know him at WP, here and elsewhere. Then came his behaviour in this thread and now I wouldn't dream of labelling him as anything else than a he.

He wants respect? He should start by giving it.

Like I said things change but you are right about how he is behaving in this thread
"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
George Bernard Shaw

Offline bodie

  • Reflective Katoptronaphiliac of the Aspie Elite
  • News Box Slave
  • Maniacal Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 14394
  • Karma: 2113
  • Gender: Female
  • busy re arranging deck chairs on board the Titanic
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #421 on: April 28, 2011, 02:27:58 PM »
Quote
And she didn't "lead her on"

If you know that as an absolute fact,  then i  believe you.
Which means i wouldn't call it selfish.  I would not expect
a person having such strong feelings to deny themselves
the right to be who they want to be.

I was under the impression, not  just what Rissy said,  that
it wasn't like that.  But hands up if i am wrong.
blah blah blah

Offline odeon

  • Witchlet of the Aspie Elite
  • Webmaster
  • Postwhore Beyond Repair
  • *****
  • Posts: 108879
  • Karma: 4482
  • Gender: Male
  • Replacement Despot
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #422 on: April 28, 2011, 03:00:50 PM »
WOW I can't believe I read all that. I want that time back.


Rissy, you are no fun, and far too sensitive. I just see personal issues between old friends. This world is too PC. I can't find any goddamn tylenol

:LMAO:
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #423 on: April 28, 2011, 03:09:10 PM »
I don't think anyone can know it for afact except GA, but I believe her as I know what it is like to be trans myself, and it takes some people longer to accept it and realise what it is. I was lucky in that it only took me till 17.

Look at it this way - why WOULD GA "lead her on"? what would she have to gain from that? Unless you mean she knew she was trans but decided to pretend she wasn't and hide it by getting married and living as a bloke. I don't think that is the case though.

Offline Rissy

  • Part of the Chaos
  • ***
  • Posts: 91
  • Karma: 7
  • Gender: Female
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #424 on: April 28, 2011, 03:12:53 PM »
Oh noes~ Someones calling me cissexist~ What do I do? STOP JUDGING ME~~~!!!!11

Seriously, I'm just calling you on disrespectful behavior. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I'm just arguing with your reason. I don't expect to change your views but I do plan to pick at your argument. Essentially you're doing the same thing to justify cissexist actions.

I honestly find psych drugs kind of crude and not actually very useful. In most cases they mess you up more or come with their own harmful side effects. Destroying and recreating the brain seems like a much better solution. Why do you need to turn a transwoman into a guy anyway? The world is overpopulated, we don't need more people breeding and a transperson can still be productive if you just let them live in the sex they want. Why do you need to fix someone's brain if they don't want it fixed. Someone who takes drugs to escape their identity honestly strike me as weaker individuals who can't handle life. Talking about vegetables wasn't scare-mongering anyway, I was openly admitting to having no regard for the life of something braindead, that is personal statement.

And since everyone loves this thread, do you really want to open philosophy arguments? Science isn't a religion, but everything you take as reality is a belief. Nothing can be proved without a context, not even the context itself. At some point you have to pretend something is true, so that other things can be compared to it. I'm all for a scientific view on reality, but it's presumptious to think any belief is more valid. Besides, I'm not discrediting science here, I'm saying that your use of science is very shallow and that you seek to develop everything towards something you view as perfection. The world is a chaotic, overwhelming mess and the idea of order and perfection is a joke. Languages and word definitions change and there is constant changes in everything. You're just unwilling to accept the changes that other people make to the world because they don't fit in your idea of how everything should be. As an individual you have that right, but as a public debate topic, your argument can be countered by anyone elses. Your context is not god.
And if you wish to make any arguments against me, don't TL;DR me, it just leaves whatever I said uncontested. I mean feel free to ignore me, but it doesn't give your pro-botty-burp argument any weight.

eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.

midlifeaspie

  • Guest
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #425 on: April 28, 2011, 03:31:48 PM »
 :yawn:

eris

  • Guest
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #426 on: April 28, 2011, 03:34:27 PM »

eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.

You're being sensitive because you are taking everything so seriously. tits or GTFO

Offline odeon

  • Witchlet of the Aspie Elite
  • Webmaster
  • Postwhore Beyond Repair
  • *****
  • Posts: 108879
  • Karma: 4482
  • Gender: Male
  • Replacement Despot
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #427 on: April 28, 2011, 03:38:14 PM »
Oh noes~ Someones calling me cissexist~ What do I do? STOP JUDGING ME~~~!!!!11

Seriously, I'm just calling you on disrespectful behavior. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I'm just arguing with your reason. I don't expect to change your views but I do plan to pick at your argument. Essentially you're doing the same thing to justify cissexist actions.

I honestly find psych drugs kind of crude and not actually very useful. In most cases they mess you up more or come with their own harmful side effects. Destroying and recreating the brain seems like a much better solution. Why do you need to turn a transwoman into a guy anyway? The world is overpopulated, we don't need more people breeding and a transperson can still be productive if you just let them live in the sex they want. Why do you need to fix someone's brain if they don't want it fixed. Someone who takes drugs to escape their identity honestly strike me as weaker individuals who can't handle life. Talking about vegetables wasn't scare-mongering anyway, I was openly admitting to having no regard for the life of something braindead, that is personal statement.

And since everyone loves this thread, do you really want to open philosophy arguments? Science isn't a religion, but everything you take as reality is a belief. Nothing can be proved without a context, not even the context itself. At some point you have to pretend something is true, so that other things can be compared to it. I'm all for a scientific view on reality, but it's presumptious to think any belief is more valid. Besides, I'm not discrediting science here, I'm saying that your use of science is very shallow and that you seek to develop everything towards something you view as perfection. The world is a chaotic, overwhelming mess and the idea of order and perfection is a joke. Languages and word definitions change and there is constant changes in everything. You're just unwilling to accept the changes that other people make to the world because they don't fit in your idea of how everything should be. As an individual you have that right, but as a public debate topic, your argument can be countered by anyone elses. Your context is not god.
And if you wish to make any arguments against me, don't TL;DR me, it just leaves whatever I said uncontested. I mean feel free to ignore me, but it doesn't give your pro-botty-burp argument any weight.

eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.

TL;DR
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Parts

  • The Mad
  • Caretaker Admin
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 37468
  • Karma: 3061
  • Gender: Female
  • Who are you?
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #428 on: April 28, 2011, 03:46:34 PM »



eris: I'm really just being persistent and replying to people's posts. If I was being sensitive I would be raging and demanding you to respect Kayleigh, but I know she won't find it from people who hate her. I'm not arguing against you or talking about you so you don't need to read this if you don't wish to.

You're being sensitive because you are taking everything so seriously. tits or GTFO



Did someone say tits :autism:


"Eat it up.  Wear it out.  Make it do or do without." 

'People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.'
George Bernard Shaw

Offline bodie

  • Reflective Katoptronaphiliac of the Aspie Elite
  • News Box Slave
  • Maniacal Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 14394
  • Karma: 2113
  • Gender: Female
  • busy re arranging deck chairs on board the Titanic
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #429 on: April 28, 2011, 04:10:42 PM »
Thanks guys.  – but I am gonna bow out of this now.
I feel a bit uncomfortable talking about other peoples relationships.
some things ought to be kept private.   I feel it will just keep
coming back to this as the relevant points seem to be about
Kayleigh.

Just want to say  I do not see how or why anyone would dislike you, or feel
superior to you for being Trans.  I haven't seen any posts on here
that suggest otherwise.
It is good to talk about these things and I find people from all walks of life
to be interesting.  You can never have enough knowledge.  There is a big
difference though between talking and receiving a lecture.  I switch off, always
have, to lectures.  Anyway I did learn a couple of things from this thread but
I think i have ‘maxed out’ now on what I can learn. 

Only bit I still find difficult is the wording/terminology .  My brain seems
to not like these new words and ‘isms’ and I feel I could easily trip up
and offend someone unintentionally.  So I am off to contemplate.

I still don’t think anyone on here is the ‘c’ word or transphobic.  JMO.
so lighten up.  Botty-burps are fun.

blah blah blah

Offline Semicolon

  • The Punctuated Equilibrium Of The Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Insane Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • Karma: 693
  • I am an echolalic mastodon.
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #430 on: April 28, 2011, 04:23:03 PM »
Oh noes~ Someones calling me cissexist~ What do I do? STOP JUDGING ME~~~!!!!11

Seriously, I'm just calling you on disrespectful behavior. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I'm just arguing with your reason. I don't expect to change your views but I do plan to pick at your argument. Essentially you're doing the same thing to justify cissexist actions.

I honestly find psych drugs kind of crude and not actually very useful. In most cases they mess you up more or come with their own harmful side effects. Destroying and recreating the brain seems like a much better solution. Why do you need to turn a transwoman into a guy anyway? The world is overpopulated, we don't need more people breeding and a transperson can still be productive if you just let them live in the sex they want. Why do you need to fix someone's brain if they don't want it fixed. Someone who takes drugs to escape their identity honestly strike me as weaker individuals who can't
handle life. Talking about vegetables wasn't scare-mongering anyway, I was openly admitting to having no regard for the life of something braindead, that is personal statement.

Surgery and hormones also have side effects. Don't ignore the costs or benefits of any particular option.

And since everyone loves this thread, do you really want to open philosophy arguments? Science isn't a religion, but everything you take as reality is a belief. Nothing can be proved without a context, not even the context itself. At some point you have to pretend something is true, so that other things can be compared to it. I'm all for a scientific view on reality, but it's presumptious to think any belief is more valid. Besides, I'm not discrediting science here, I'm saying that your use of science is very shallow and that you seek to develop everything towards something you view as perfection. The world is a chaotic, overwhelming mess and the idea of order and perfection is a joke. Languages and word definitions change and there is constant changes in everything. You're just unwilling to accept the changes that other people make to the world because they don't fit in your idea of how everything should be. As an individual you have that right, but as a public debate topic, your argument can be countered by anyone elses. Your context is not god.

Quote from: Merriam-Webster Dictionary
iro·ny
noun \ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē\
plural iro·nies

1. a : a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning —called also Socratic irony
2. a : the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony c : an ironic expression or utterance
3. (1) : incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result (2) : an event or result marked by such incongruity b : incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play —called also dramatic irony, tragic irony

Source

Some beliefs are more valid than others. 1 + 1 = 2 is more valid than 1 + 1 = 3.

And if you wish to make any arguments against me, don't TL;DR me, it just leaves whatever I said uncontested. I mean feel free to ignore me, but it doesn't give your pro-botty-burp argument any weight.

Indeed; however, I still haven't seen you back up your original argument.
I2 has a smiley for everything. Even a hamster wheel. :hamsterwheel:

Quote from: iamnotaparakeet
Jesus died on the cross to show us that BDSM is a legitimate form of love.
There is only one truth and it is that people do have penises of different sizes and one of them is the longest.

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #431 on: April 28, 2011, 04:25:24 PM »

Surgery and hormones also have side effects. Don't ignore the costs or benefits of any particular option.

That's true, but I think that is better than the alternative if the alternative means messing around with your brain.  I wouldn't wanna take the risk there personally

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #432 on: April 28, 2011, 05:13:51 PM »
Not gonna say anything, callaway?

Offline Adam

  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 24530
  • Karma: 1260
  • Gender: Male
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #433 on: April 28, 2011, 05:52:19 PM »
Thought not. Just swan in, post some mindless accusations about other people and then fuck off and leave

Pathetic
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 06:09:09 PM by Heinrich »

Offline Al Swearegen

  • Pussycat of the Aspie Elite
  • Elder
  • Almighty Postwhore
  • *****
  • Posts: 18721
  • Karma: 2240
  • Always front on and in your face
Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #434 on: April 28, 2011, 07:22:19 PM »
Lol~ Word-filter it all you want, but that's just going to make botty-burp your new favourite word  >:D
If you want to be immature about it I can necro every available thread with discussion of botty-burp, but I can take a joke.

More advanced trolling is relevant to the topic, but in a way making fun of or provoking the subject. And the fact that it was a mocking argument making fun of an individual instead of actually debating the argument she made against you, it counts as trolling. Passive aggressiveness isn't necessarily subtle anyway, it's just about the attitude and method. Your response right there is perfect troll reasoning. I know because I can be a troll myself. It seems to me that your arguments consist of acting dumb and demanding evidence which you then reject. Are you just trying to troll me until I leave or are you actually going/trying to make a point against me?

You complain about all the links Kayleigh post around so why would you want me to post them? I'm not even complaining about most of the membership I'm mostly trying to debate with odeon. You don't do anything but pick at the wording I use. To avoid botty-burp, you have to treat a transwoman like a ciswoman and a transman like a cisman. The obvious infraction is refusing to use the right pronouns. Anyone here who does that is cissexist. It doesn't make a single difference what your opinion on transsexualism is, it's still botty-burp.

Now I'm not here to tell you what to do with your life, or what to believe. But I am calling people on their botty-burp and it's up to them to live with it or not. Other than that, I'm happy to debate with people over their justification for botty-burp.

bodaccea: While transitioning is a choice, transsexualism is just something you're born with, like autism. Since you were born with proper gender identity, of course you don't understand the feeling of changing your sex. If you want to ponder how if feels, just imagine all your everyday tasks as if everyone viewed you as a guy and responded as such. Getting past perversion at your own new genitals and stuff guys are allowed to do, you can't really express yourself in the same way and I'm sure it just wouldn't feel right.

Your second bit was to Bodaccea but the unnamed first bit might be to me or Parts or us all collectively. You really don't pin it down too well.

This bit
More advanced trolling is relevant to the topic, but in a way making fun of or provoking the subject. And the fact that it was a mocking argument making fun of an individual instead of actually debating the argument she made against you, it counts as trolling. Passive aggressiveness isn't necessarily subtle anyway, it's just about the attitude and method. Your response right there is perfect troll reasoning. I know because I can be a troll myself. It seems to me that your arguments consist of acting dumb and demanding evidence which you then reject. Are you just trying to troll me until I leave or are you actually going/trying to make a point against me?


seems like a half-arsed attempt at answering my call to actually back yourself.

And the fact that it was a mocking argument making fun of an individual instead of actually debating the argument she made against you, it counts as trolling.

This bit specifically I have shown was in direct response to Kayleigh asking why people would want to attack them. As shown so let's not say it was adjunct to the argument. It is more in line with the below. (summarised and paraphrased for brevity)

Kayleigh: Rarr you all are uneducated ignorant arseholes here are some links
Us: Fuck off Kayleigh
Kaleigh: You all are transphobic
Us: Fuck off Kayleigh
Kayleigh: I hate you all. Wahhh. I am leaving I won't recommend anyone to come here.
Us: Fuck off Kayleigh and Good riddance
Kayleigh: I don't know why you all hate me

(Now this bit is where I come in)

If anyone was trolling it was your good friend Kayleigh. My reply fitted the context beautifully I think and I think that the only one who thinks different is you.


So replying to this is necessary. I am not acting dumb and rejecting evidence. I am however demanding you back your claims as is the one rule on I2 as found on the entry home page www.intensitysquared.com.
You don't actually get a special pass of exclusion or exception. Either you are not giving evidence or are doing it in a way that makes it very difficult to be understood. None of us are stupid nor willfully ignorant and so it comes back to you. You need to back your position and you clearly aren't.

Why is that?

I personally don't want you to repost Kaleigh's links again. We got all that the first time around and I refuse to read them on the basis that they were preached at me and in a condescending arrogant manner which made me want to ignore them. You were not asked to post link's to other sites. I believe your argument that we or some of us are cis-sexist (that is that we see transpeople as inferior) you need to understand our hearts and mind and I do not think you do. I think you are scrambling to prove that any of us hold transpeople as being inferior.

Asking you to prove such an extraordinary accusation is no trolling either nor is the asking for evidence a terribly onerous thing.

Now you made what "may" seem like a decent argument in the "If they don't use "the right" pronouns, then they are cis-sexist. as it is "infraction-worthy. The act of doing do makes them cis-sexist." (Paraphrased)
However under any reasonable scrutiny this falls down doesn't it?
"If they don't use a prescribe set of pronouns =/= they think transgendered people are inferior"
No it simply doesn't mean that at all. People could use pronouns other than what you prescribe and not think any the less of transgendered people, nor think them inferior.
Are those people cis-sexist?
Maybe they are merely uncomfortable in the use of such pronouns. Maybe they are unaware of the need to use them. Maybe they dislike change (what Autistics not liking change???). Maybe they think that the whole thing is rather silly and they don't get the importance of its necessity. Maybe there are a lot of other reasons for it that i have not rattled off the top of my head.
None of these necessarily give rise to someone thinking transpeople inferior get they all involve not using the "right" pronoun which you say necessitates a person thinking a transperson inferior.
(Again most people here just don't give a shit)

So again your "evidence" does not seem "evidence" at all. Your claims are not backed and I want you to simply do as you would be expected to do were you any other member here. Make a claim and back it.

Your two claims again.

1) I have been trolling in this thread

2) People here are cis-sexist (ie think transgender people are inferior to people that are not transgender)

Why are you struggling with this?
I2 today is not i2 of yesteryear. It is a knitting circle. Those that participate be they nice or asshats know their place and the price to be there. Odeon is the overlord

.Benevolent if you toe the line.

Think it is I2 of old? Even Odeon is not so delusional as to think otherwise. He may on occasionally pretend otherwise but his base is that knitting circle.

Censoring/banning/restricting/moderating myself, Calanadale & Scrapheap were all not his finest moments.

How to apologise to Scrap