People's views regarding transpeople

[Callaway]

Stupid computer... I lost my post.
Past history is an excuse why it'd be hard to change the habit of using different pronouns, but not an excuse to neglect them. I can understand you being bitter and disliking Kayleigh, but disrespect is disrespect, justified or not. Kayleigh's mistake was leading her on and marrying her. But you can't change the past. Justifying botty-burp on transsexualism upsetting a friend is about as much sense as being racist because a black man stole your wallet. It's not hard to treat a transgirl you hate the same as a cisgirl you hate.

It's late, so I don't have time to rewrite the post I made (And my hand is fractured, forcing me to one hand type) But I wasn't claiming to totally read Swearengen or anything. I was just presenting my basic analysis and perception. It shouldn't be remarkable enough to worry about. And I think you just have trouble understanding the language and tone I use, I haven't been backing out on anything I said. I've just rephrased it hoping for you to understand my meaning better. I consider it to be trolling when you seek to upset someone with irrelevant comments. The fact you admitted to attacking her gender instead of her behavior is where you showed signs of trolling.

You don't have to feel sorry for her or care about transsexualism. You just have to accept her gender, or atleast use female pronouns about her. It's just about being considerate. If you don't care, there's no harm in using female pronouns for the sake of respect. If you have a problem with using respectful pronouns, it's obvious that you DO care and are showing signs of botty-burp. You all seem to hate Kayleigh so obviously she's a poor subject matter, but you just need to live and let live...

Oh... and I guess i'll respond to odean tomorrow <_<

If that's directed to me, I don't hate GA or feel bitter and I'm perfectly happy to live and let live, but you seem to be asking for more than that.  You're asking me to make a concerted conscious effort to call someone that I have known for years as a "he" a "she".

I don't see why I have to do anything unless I want to.

Respect is a two-way street and I see GA demanding respect and effort from others without offering respect to others first. 

I see condescending lectures and name-calling if others do not comply with GA's wishes.

Besides, GA has already given notice to delete the account in less than a week, so why is this even an issue?


Why didn't you answer my question about your relationship with GA?

Do I need to be defending anyone? I'm too evil to be a white knight...

Hi Rissy and to Intensity.

What's your connection to GA?  I ask this because you seem to have more of an emotional investment in this discussion than you would have if the two of you weren't very close.

['andersom']

Soph has a good point here. DNA will not change. But, DNA does not prescribe high heels and lacy bras. That's social femininity.

Wasn't in China under Mao Zedong, where they wanted to get rid of all of that. Can be forced on people. Doesn't change the reproduction, but sure changes the social roles.


Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.

I'm not sure. Considering what humans are like, fixing the brain will probably be far less dangerous in the long run. I am fully expecting them to be able to "fix" autism in a few decades, tops, and I suspect "fixing" the gender issue won't take longer.

Mind, I'm not saying that they should or if it's "right", whatever that means, I'm just saying that changing the society and physical settings will probably be far more costly.

Will depend on costs indeed. And will still take at least a couple of decades. So, not something for Soph at all. And society settings don't have to be costly.
And, genderbending is still happening. Gay lib benefited a lot from well liked gay celebs. Some famous, and liked trans people will make a difference. Because people seem to kind of bond with the people they see a lot in their own living-room on TV. Celebs sometimes almost get a kind of family status.
And plastic surgery, that's no big deal for a lot of people by now. Why would it be a big deal for someone who wants a gender change?

With autism, I don't think they will try to "fix" it. Think they are more likely to find ways to change autism in something that can be economically interesting. Kind of pedigree moulding of different types of people on the spectrum. And I do find that a scary thought.

[odeon]

But I don't think it's something that would ever be simple enough to fix just like that. It would mean really altering your brain.

Surely changing the exterior (the "shell") makes more sense than fucking around with the brain

Also I would more expect it to be that a trans person was "meant" to be the sex they identify as, rather than "meant" to identify as the sex they are

That is what I was trying to address in the post that sent GA into a fit.

The "shell", as you call it, developed first. It was decided before there was any consciousness or indeed a brain. Therefore it makes more sense, logically, that the set of chromosomes is what nature meant to do rather than whatever it is that happened with the brain's wiring some time after that.

Logically, then, it makes more sense to correct that wiring problem. It would probably be far less intrusive, procedurally speaking, than actually creating a specimen of the others sex, capable of everything that person would want.

And do note that in addition to changing the "shell" (in my mind that is a bit too superficial because the biological functions go further than that) you would have to change the whole society and that, as we already know, is hardest of all because bigotry and hatred is everywhere.

BW, I would argue the same re autism.

And finally, I have no idea how easy or hard it would be to make such an alteration in the brain. I do know that correctable brain damage, cancer, etc, can easily and dramatically change one's personality, and I also know that those things can often be fixed.

* odeon is now awaiting the inevitable hissy fit from GA

[Adam]

Besides, GA has already given notice to delete the account in less than a week, so why is this even an issue?

It's an issue because it's not about GA. Obviously GA is the example here, but the main thing is not about her.

Why didn't you answer my question about your relationship with GA?

Again, why is it so hard for you to call her "she"?

[odeon]

Soph has a good point here. DNA will not change. But, DNA does not prescribe high heels and lacy bras. That's social femininity.

Wasn't in China under Mao Zedong, where they wanted to get rid of all of that. Can be forced on people. Doesn't change the reproduction, but sure changes the social roles.


Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.

I'm not sure. Considering what humans are like, fixing the brain will probably be far less dangerous in the long run. I am fully expecting them to be able to "fix" autism in a few decades, tops, and I suspect "fixing" the gender issue won't take longer.

Mind, I'm not saying that they should or if it's "right", whatever that means, I'm just saying that changing the society and physical settings will probably be far more costly.

Will depend on costs indeed. And will still take at least a couple of decades. So, not something for Soph at all. And society settings don't have to be costly.
And, genderbending is still happening. Gay lib benefited a lot from well liked gay celebs. Some famous, and liked trans people will make a difference. Because people seem to kind of bond with the people they see a lot in their own living-room on TV. Celebs sometimes almost get a kind of family status.
And plastic surgery, that's no big deal for a lot of people by now. Why would it be a big deal for someone who wants a gender change?

With autism, I don't think they will try to "fix" it. Think they are more likely to find ways to change autism in something that can be economically interesting. Kind of pedigree moulding of different types of people on the spectrum. And I do find that a scary thought.

I'm not sure I share your optimism re the gender-bending. I have a lot of arguments re why it's comparatively easy for gays to be accepted in and by society but I'm afraid I'm going to bed instead.

[Adam]

I still think I'd much rather do it this way than risk messing with my brain (I mean my brain is obviously fucked already, I don't want it even worse )

And yeah,  I take your point bout the physical sex being determined earlier. I wasn';teven thinkign of chromosomes at the time as a lot of people don't have chromosomes that match their physical sex. And I mean when you're talking about people this applies to, not the entire population

But yeah if you're XX or XY is obviously determined much earlier

btw (for anyone), when do you guys think the wiring of the brain went wrong then? At some point in the womb?

['andersom']

Soph has a good point here. DNA will not change. But, DNA does not prescribe high heels and lacy bras. That's social femininity.

Wasn't in China under Mao Zedong, where they wanted to get rid of all of that. Can be forced on people. Doesn't change the reproduction, but sure changes the social roles.


Yes, nature did fuck up somewhere when a kid knows it is the wrong gender. Fixing the thing in the brain is a lot more dangerous and will have a much higher mortality rate than changing the social and physical settings to the brain. That still is a hell of a way to go.

I'm not sure. Considering what humans are like, fixing the brain will probably be far less dangerous in the long run. I am fully expecting them to be able to "fix" autism in a few decades, tops, and I suspect "fixing" the gender issue won't take longer.

Mind, I'm not saying that they should or if it's "right", whatever that means, I'm just saying that changing the society and physical settings will probably be far more costly.

Will depend on costs indeed. And will still take at least a couple of decades. So, not something for Soph at all. And society settings don't have to be costly.
And, genderbending is still happening. Gay lib benefited a lot from well liked gay celebs. Some famous, and liked trans people will make a difference. Because people seem to kind of bond with the people they see a lot in their own living-room on TV. Celebs sometimes almost get a kind of family status.
And plastic surgery, that's no big deal for a lot of people by now. Why would it be a big deal for someone who wants a gender change?

With autism, I don't think they will try to "fix" it. Think they are more likely to find ways to change autism in something that can be economically interesting. Kind of pedigree moulding of different types of people on the spectrum. And I do find that a scary thought.

I'm not sure I share your optimism re the gender-bending. I have a lot of arguments re why it's comparatively easy for gays to be accepted in and by society but I'm afraid I'm going to bed instead.

For someone changing gender, there should be no problem, apart from medical ones, after the transition has been done. Yeah, you'd probably still be able to tell with late transitions, but, there are enough people who don't fit the image of the gender they are born with and identify with that perfect. So, not a too big deal I think.

['andersom']

I still think I'd much rather do it this way than risk messing with my brain (I mean my brain is obviously fucked already, I don't want it even worse )

And yeah,  I take your point bout the physical sex being determined earlier. I wasn';teven thinkign of chromosomes at the time as a lot of people don't have chromosomes that match their physical sex. And I mean when you're talking about people this applies to, not the entire population

But yeah if you're XX or XY is obviously determined much earlier

btw (for anyone), when do you guys think the wiring of the brain went wrong then? At some point in the womb?

I'd think in the womb indeed. Would not surprise me if there would be research on that.
There has been a lot of research on the occurring of homosexuality. And they found various indicators that could "induce" homosexuality.
IIRC there has been research on brains of trans people who died. I guess the location of clear differences in the brain would be able to tell when in the development those changes started.

Too tired and too late for me to google for that now though.

[Adam]

I haevn't reallly looked into it much but I'm sure there's research on it yeah

tbh I don;t wanna start researching stuff like this as I don't wanna become one of those people who are defined solely by what they are and come across as obsessed by it (whether autism, trans stuff or otherwise). What I look up is what affects me and what I can do about it, I try to stay out of the causes stuff, outside of random discussions like this

[Frolic_Fun]

Again, why is it so hard for you to call her "she"?

As I said before in this thread, we're just as entitled to refer to people to our own terms just as much as they refer themselves with theirs.

I call you she, I call GA he. I don't see it as a sign of disrespect, just that it makes it easier for my brain to understand etc etc. I'll not stop you or others referring you to your preferred gender however, not my place to do so. I don't see why I *should* be forced to call you he (even though you most likely don't, just saying) though, seems a bit pedantic and controlling that way.

However, I deliberately do it out of disrespect for GA. Not because of his transistion, but because of his haughty stuck up holier-than-thou attitude that he harbors. I know it annoys him and I actively use it as a weapon, and I will go to great lengths to piss him off even if it involved photoshopping trannies being hung in concentration camps. If he happened to be an alright person with a SENSE OF HUMOUR, then I'd not really mock him over his transistion since he'll know I'm not being serious.

As for transphobia in general, yes I am apathetic about it. In my opinion it is their problem to fix, not mine, since I am not a transgender.

[Adam]

I agree that people shouldn't be forced to. I don't think I;ve ever tried to force people here (or elsewhere) to call me "he". I don't think I've even asked

. I hope not anyway

[Squidusa]

Besides, GA has already given notice to delete the account in less than a week, so why is this even an issue?

It's an issue because it's not about GA. Obviously GA is the example here, but the main thing is not about her.

Why didn't you answer my question about your relationship with GA?

Again, why is it so hard for you to call her "she"?

IIRC Callaway has said before that she feels it is uncomfortable due to Renaeden's feelings toward GA and etc. (that probably sounded harsher than meant apologies , I have the tact of a cuttlefish today  )    When you've known someone for ages as one gender to suddenly have to call them another is very difficult I imagine, even less easy when that persona makes quite as many demands as GA does.

While on the subject of GA , I don't know you and I certainly don't particularly care for you after your recent posts.
I know I recently did a callout on two homophobic members (one of them not being) , but that was due to them not backing themselves up, you can't order people change to your views instantly, people have disagreed with you and they have backed themselves up.

You on the other hand have jumped up and down when you have not gotten your own way , it's not going to happen and if you are leaving over this then good riddance to such a condescending , arrogant and demanding child member. 

[Frolic_Fun]

You haven't bitched about it Soph, so it's okay. At least you have a sense of humour anyway.

As for Bint: Perhaps you should start using a thing called "rationality". Your fucking emo rambling about useless bollocks is getting on my man-tits as of late. Oh well, bint'll probably claim she's trans next week anyway and try to awkwardly brofist, then will either change from either straight to lesbian every hour.

[Osensitive1]

Been waiting for her to post here again. Too many pages of posts to care the last couple of days though.

[Frolic_Fun]

I've only got on Emma's laptop after days of not going online, so my itch to rant is VERY high.