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Author Topic: People's views regarding transpeople  (Read 17536 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #255 on: April 27, 2011, 09:39:11 AM »
One thing that strikes me as rather odd.

Anyone else get this. Kayleigh must be called Kayleigh and to call Kayleigh GA or Gallieo Ace (Kaleigh's previous username is insulting or wrong)
So what is Kayleigh known as themselves outside of here?

Screen Names   

    * bourqie(Yahoo! Messenger)
    * GalileoAce(Google Talk)
    * GalileoAce(Skype)
    * GalileoAce(Twitter)
    * GalileoAce@hotmail.com(Windows Live Messenger)

Website   

    * http://galileoace.com

Email   

    * galileoace@gmail.com
    * kayleigh.bourquin@gmail.com

Facebook   facebook.com/GalileoAce


You guys see something slightly strange here?

She deosn't want people calling her GA? I didn't know that. When did she say that?

Offline Adam

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #256 on: April 27, 2011, 09:42:17 AM »
And as for this discussion affecting what steps I take about my sex, I don't think it will make much difference really. It's not gonna make me less likely to go through with anything, as IRL responses to my gender are obviously worse than online. I can handle it online easily (I can handle IRL abuse as well unless it gets physical, it is obviously just harder)

Offline Rissy

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #257 on: April 27, 2011, 09:54:59 AM »
Do I need to be defending anyone? I'm too evil to be a white knight...

Offline Adam

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #258 on: April 27, 2011, 09:57:17 AM »
I don't need defending, no :P

Offline ProfessorFarnsworth

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #259 on: April 27, 2011, 10:00:28 AM »
I don't need defending, no :P

Indeed, you are :viking:
Existence actually has two broad meanings despite its apparent meaningless. The constant reconciliation of all its parts, and the conservation of any closed system as a whole.

Morality can be extrapolated from these meanings to make these two commandments of godless morality: 1). Be in harmony with one another and 2). Care for the environment.

Offline Adam

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #260 on: April 27, 2011, 10:01:06 AM »
:agreed:

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Offline Al Swearegen

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #262 on: April 27, 2011, 11:17:52 AM »
I was just teasing with the whole winning thing. And I just meant that you seemed to be attacking individuals for personal reasons rather than arguing any point at them. You do seem to have personal reasons for disliking Kayleigh and are just trying to hurt her rather than debate with her. You seem a bit emotional and as you said, you're just reacting.  I just tend to say people are crying when they get emotional about it.

If you look at bodaccea's last post, that's a the sort of response to give without caring too much. Transpeople were born with the wrong gender identity and so the body just feels wrong. It's like some kind of body horror that you're born into. All they do is modify their bodies as best they can and act the way they want. While you can't really cross over all the way, you still have the opposite gender. They want to be acknowledged for their mind and personality and not for physical make up. And considering how biology isn't black and white like that, someone's mind is what really matters about someone. You don't have to date a transgirl you're not attracted to, but you should understand that she is socially a girl. It's under social circumstances that you call a transgirl a girl and use female pronouns, and vice versa for transguys. Its just simple respect. The practice of acknowledging people for what they do and not for what they look like.

I don't understand the concept of male and female being just about sexual characteristics. If they were dependent of your ability to, and role in reproduction, I could understand. But infertile or deformed people still have gender placed on them. And gender labeling is used for social purposes rather than sexual purposes.

But generally botty-burp is about disrespect and discrimination against transpeople. Transphobia tends to be more about violence and more serious things. I do think it's cissexist if you can't respect pronouns of others. Struggling with them are okay, but if you're not acknowledging someones identity, it's offensive and hurtful. I compared it to autism before because some people seem to think asperger's is crap too. I mean saying that transpeople are deluded is definitely insulting. And some people are kind of saying it is.

I think this topic was started because people weren't quick to defend transpeople, which may be true, and kind of sucks. But if you can be considerate to transpeople, it's okay enough.
And I'm sure you have friends Hubert. And I never claimed to be original or anything special. I joined because I wanted to join this discussion. I'm sure to get bored and argue with people on other random forums too, maybe reappearing unexpectantly again sometime. I just like to debate against stuff I don't agree with. There's still Heinrich here and such, so it's not like Kayleigh is the only person here that may be hurt

Ah so what 2 days here and 17 posts in and you have an idea of what upsets me or drives me or even what my beliefs are? I find this a rather curious concept. Internet psycho-analysis warp factor nine?  :lol:
I am like this all the time and I don't mean to put a downer on what looked to be a nice little follow on, but meh. You could ask others if this is me being overly-emotional but sometimes the things we imagine are far more powerful than what is. Ask Kayleigh.

Now two points I guess. The first is that I was "attacking Kayleigh" personality rather than Kayleigh's gender? Correct. The truth was that I have no real need in my mind to defend my values and I had no issue with trangenderism and was "attacked" by Kayleigh (as you pointed out). It is not the first time Kayleigh has done this. Someone raises anything to do with Transgender and in flounces Kayleigh giving sermons, posting must read links and tell us what we should think and how terrible we are for not holding their worldview over something that we simply don't give a shit about.
So attack Kayleigh personally? Sure why not? Nothing I said was a troll it is sentiments felt by myself and others due to Kayleigh's asshattery.
As to Kayleigh's points in general about Transgenderism? Yes marginalised people get marginalised and picked on and it is shitty. Yes there is bigotry to all marginalised groups. No it is not fair.  Yes being on the receiving end of indifference or bigotry is not fun. Understood. Autistics get it too. It sucks.
Specifically, no we are not collectively in need of damning, lecturing, re-educating, or being labelled as phobic because some of us really don't care to give this issue much thought. I will tell you another thing. I do not give the persecution of Jewish people throughout history or Cerebal Palsy sufferers or of the Refugees in Villawood or political prisoners in Guantanemo Bay much thought. Sure I think it sucks and I understand a little about their plight but their world and there problems and their struggles simply has no real place in my life and I have no overwhelming need to embrace it and educate or rail against myself for not being an activist  for their causes. None of these things has the least impact in my life and I actually refuse to feel bad for not learning more or making a greater effort to understand and appreciate the condition. It has no impact on my life. The issues with transgenderism are similar in the respect of how they impact my life, personally and my desire to know more.
As terrible as it sounds. Why should I care? I Know Kayleigh cares and it has a large impact on Kayleigh's life and Kayleigh would care but why should I??
Now if you have wrapped your mind around this concept I want you to go the next logical step. If I and others don't care, would it follow we are negative or bigoted? Think on it. Presume that we are marginalised ourself and also presume by and large we do not have have any investment in transgenderism and little contact with transpeople IRL. So no fear or issue and that by and large on here we hate everyone about the same.
Tell me where your suggestion of botty-burp or transphobia may rate in our consciousness collectively or individually?

Final point I have yet to see you back the claim of trolling and kind of would like to sex whether this was a fishing exercise or you actually had anything substantial. I know you have come in here like a bit of a firecracker and that is good. I like a bit of spirit and strong opinions. I have a few myself. I do want you tpo back yourself though and not hide behind the "Oh I was joking" or "I misread" that would make you look rather weak or stupid and I don't want to see that happen because you seem like a reasonable and a smart person. Would like those answers though.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 11:21:34 AM by Al Swearengen »
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Offline Callaway

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #263 on: April 27, 2011, 11:39:41 AM »
Do I need to be defending anyone? I'm too evil to be a white knight...

Hi Rissy and :welcome: to Intensity.

What's your connection to GA?  I ask this because you seem to have more of an emotional investment in this discussion than you would have if the two of you weren't very close.

I'm not comfortable calling GA "she" because I first knew him for more than five years as a "he" and it doesn't seem that long ago that I was looking at his and renaeden's wedding pictures.  I know that this whole situation has hurt renaeden very much and I identify with her perspective more than I identify with GA's.  It seems obvious to me that she cares more about GA's feelings than GA cares about hers.  I explained this to GA several months ago and that as a compromise, I would try to leave out gender pronouns as much as possible when referring to GA and at the time, we seemed to understand one another.  Now GA seems to be having a snit fit over me not calling him a "she" and me saying that perhaps GA's increased mood swings could be related to the estrogen GA takes, which I think is pretty obvious.   I think that stating a rather obvious fact does not mean that the person stating it is transphobic or misogynistic.

Offline Adam

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #264 on: April 27, 2011, 11:49:05 AM »
Poor you, not comfortable with calling her "she" :'(

If renaeden can do it, then who the hell are you to refuse?

And I know I will get shit for this post, but I don't care. I think that's a pathetic stance to take

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #265 on: April 27, 2011, 11:56:23 AM »
If renaeden can do it, then who the hell are you to refuse?

What a bizarre thing to say.  Maybe I missed something.  Is renaeden the bar that is set on this subject?  Why?

Offline Adam

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #266 on: April 27, 2011, 11:58:16 AM »
Eh?

In Callaway's case, that seems to be the reason, yes. She's repeatedly said she won't call GA "she" because of renaeden and because she "identifies more with her perspective"

So yes, I think the fact that renaeden is accepting what is happening and now calls her "she" is relevant here

In other cases of people not calling her "she," no. But in Callaway's case , yes

Offline Callaway

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #267 on: April 27, 2011, 12:05:26 PM »
Poor you, not comfortable with calling her "she" :'(

If renaeden can do it, then who the hell are you to refuse?

And I know I will get shit for this post, but I don't care. I think that's a pathetic stance to take

I guess I would ask, who the hell is GA to throw a snit fit if there's someone on the other side of the world who doesn't call him a "she"?

Offline Adam

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #268 on: April 27, 2011, 12:24:17 PM »
Not gonna address the point?

At least in her case it is actually about her. In your case it's about someone else.


Offline odeon

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Re: People's views regarding transpeople
« Reply #269 on: April 27, 2011, 01:41:28 PM »
Hey, I guess I really ought to have introduced myself first, but I wanted to defend Kayleigh and join the discussion. A forum can talk about anything so I don't see why any topic is to irrelevant to post as long as it's in the right section. And they're talking about users of I^2, which is what makes this thread relevant.

Here's a counter argument, if it's too hard to acknowledge transsexualism, then it's too hard to acknowledge autism and therefore I^2 is really just a forum of social retards who need to grow up and learn to act neurotypical :P (Not my opinion, I'm just making a comparison)

That's not an argument, it's an assumption that you can directly compare the two.

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Hypocrites don't deserve what they don't give. If you're gonna treat Kayleigh like shit, then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love. Respect isn't a divine right, it's something you have to share. Curses come home to roost, and thus if you don't respect people you don't get any respect or sympathy for your situation.

Agreed, in principle. GA is behaving like a self-important cunt, ergo he gets treated like one. Somehow I have the feeling that wasn't your point, though.

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Transsexualism has got to do with identity programmed into the brain. Kayleigh was born with her brain telling her to be a girl. Being a repressed object for people to use how they want to use you is a pathetic way of living, so she went and did something about acting and living the way she wished to live. What's the relevance of transsexualism to austism? Maybe it should be kinship since they're both not neurotypical.

I e, wiring problems. Disabilities. Abnormalities. Both can be seen as nature fucking up in one way or another. It takes more than a wiring problem to create a woman by mistake or error, however, which is why objectively, it is reasonable to assume that GA was meant to be a male but there were problems along the way, much like I was meant to be a well-functioning social individual but nature fucked up.

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In terms of use of pronouns and such? It's really just a social issue. If you want to take a definition based on the reproductive capabilities, infertile people forfeit a gender. If you can't help reproduce, you're just a living creature of no sexual importance. In real terms, the use of gender labeling is just a social construction and really reflects more on identity and the way people act and present themselves. The binary gender system is obviously crap, but that's how society is constructed and trying to really be thorough with classifications is complicated and eventually needs to be cut somewhere. Maybe the five gender system is better, but I'd still have complaints. But since pronouns are more relevant to gender than sex, it is better to use them as such. Its about respect, and I don't see how it matters when it's not as simple as people treat it.

It's nowhere near "obviously" crap, actually. It's how the human reproductive mechanisms are designed. You may not like it, but the number of people having problems with this is small and nowhere near enough to assume anything else than my above statement, namely that "nature fucked up". I'm sure it makes you feel less of a freak to redefine things but to claim that binary gender system is merely a social construct is laughable.

Before you accuse me of transphobia, etc, and blow up like GA did, please note that all I'm saying is that it's a problem of the brain, just as autism is a problem of the brain. It was not meant to happen that way but it did. You should have been able to function within the binary system, we should have been able to interact with the majority, the blind should have seen, etc, but it didn't happen because the world is not fair and never was.

It also means that black remains black, white remains white, and the definitions of basic human reproductive biology stay pretty much the same.

Oh, and welcome, etc.
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