People's views regarding transpeople

[ProfessorFarnsworth]

Besides she's not the only transgendered person here. Soph is also transgendered and he has done a good job debating with everyone else about the topic without resort to such things.

Very true again

So to finish up, I'm not discriminating GA on the merits of what she is, but rather protesting against the method of execution on how she confronts her detractors. Thank you everyone it's been a great audience.

[GalileoAce]

(I didn't ask Rissy to join I2, I wouldn't really recommend it to anyone tbh)

Ok so there appears to be at least two issues at play here.

First being the misgendering and refusal to use the pronouns I prefer.

Second being my apparent misconduct in explaining my position.


On the first, specifically Odeon's rebuttal that it takes concious effort; A lot of things take conscious effort. Like make allowances for autistic behaviour, and making spaces safe for autistic people. Applying your apparent logic to that would mean no one should really bother to make any allowances for autistic people, or indeed any differently able people because it take a conscious effort for them to do so. It's poor logic.

On the second, I don't believe I used emotional manipulation at all. Point out some examples from this thread where I have done so?

This issue is close to me, obviously. And I am engaged in spreading awareness and understanding of the issues, not just for transpeople, but for all diverse sexuality and gender people, and for autism and other disabilities. I'm a bit of an activist in that respect. I believe in knowledge and the reduction of ignorance. Yes I am passionate, and that shows in how I present my arguments. But I have never tried to emotionally manipulate anyone, that would be disingenuous and false conduct and would really undercut the validity of my arguments.

Self important blowhard? Self important maybe, but only to the extent that THIS ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS ABOUT ME. Hard not to be self important in such a situation, I think. Blowhard...I'm not even sure what that means to be honest.

Google will know. "A person who talks too much or too loudly, especially in a boastful or self-important manner". Hrm, I guess that might be accurate, but again, the two main arguments of this thread is about me. "GA is not a woman" "he" and "GA is an arrogant [...]" it's all about me. A bit hard not to be boastful or self-important. Do I talk too much? Possibly. But only in an endeavour to drive my point home.

My aim has always been to educate. Apart from people like Bint or Soph or Hyke, and maybe a few others, you all do seem to lack an understanding of some of issues about trans people. Call that arrogant or whatever, but that is how you appear. And you're only being wilfully ignorant to argue otherwise.

I know, for a fact, that I am ignorant about a great many things. I can accept this, and I can only argue from a position of knowledge, whether actual or assumed.

I would like to thank Farnsworth, Rage, and others for referring to me as she. That's all I've ever asked for really.

I don't understand what I have done against you Odeon, for you to treat me with such disrespect. I've always respected you and thought you were a nice guy.


I posted about this thread on my Facebook wall, and two other forums. Excluding the forums as they're populated by trans people, on Facebook, I've had about half a dozen people exclaim surprise and horror at the comments expressed in this thread. Sure they're all friends of mine, but very few of them are as knowledgeable about trans issues as I would prefer. And they can all see how hurtful and disrespectful you've been to me and in some ways Soph.

The larger problem is I don't know how to discern the legitimate opinions from the trolling. So I take it all as serious and respond in kind.

[Rissy]

Yay~ People to argue with~
Of course she can defend herself, I just wanted to join in. I'm not really posting for whiteknight purposes, I just wanted to join the discussion.

Why is that then?   In order to become a  Psychologist who diagnoses autism do you need to become
an expert in trans gender issues, before you qualify?

anyway, who said they didn't acknowledge transsexualism?  i been following
this thread but i guess i could have missed something? ?  Please clarify the member/s you implicate?

I was simply arguing against people saying that it's too hard to acknowledge the identity of transpeople, then there should be no reason to bother listening to the concerns and complaints of autistic people. It extends to regard to any disability or disorder being discounted. It's suggesting that maybe its too hard to deal with people who aren't neurotypical and anyone who isn't useful or functioning enough should be thrown into a furnace. I'm going to extremes, but the idea is, if you're going to disrespect transpeople and then expect people to understand and respect that autism is causing you problems, then you really lack common sense and you honestly don't deserve any consideration in return. This is in reply of arguments that it's too hard to use politically correct pronouns or that it's not your problem. Psychology only applies to social phenomena anyway and is simply reflective. It's neuroscience that identifies physical markers in the brain.
Most of the dismissive arguments is that transpeople are crazy and deluded. That is also related, because people can treat aspies like there problems are delusions of theirs.

No my friend if Kayleigh wants to flounce in here and rail again us all collecively for being transphobic and lecture us and telll us what our values must be if we do not share their then it is KAYLEIGH that forfeits the right of said respect from their own action.
Kaleigh gets what they get for acting like a pompous, arrogant blowhard.

So Your point is something like. Kayleigh can be an arsehole and if we don't "respect" their arrogance and bigotry, then we "then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love"?

Well that makes fuck all sense and i think you know that.

I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard." People throwing around that argument are hypocrites. She was attacked by odean's comment and made an angry reply like anyone would. The fact is, you need to give respect to get respect. That applies to everyone on any subject. If you don't show respect and acknowledgement to an individual, you don't make friends and you make poor precedents of previous behavior next time you want to argue for respect and such from someone else.

The anger was spawned from an offensive comment that was filled with someone else's prejudice and views. So she's only humanly insulted and angry. But I already said I want to discuss this and not be a whiteknight. It's kind of petty picking at words instead of meaning. So why don't people start by presenting their views on transsexualism and why they don't want to respect her choice of pronouns and such.

[bodie]

Firstly,  I find the term  ‘trans’ to be unhelpful.  You argue that you
don’t need to be able to reproduce to be a woman,  fine.  Just be a
Woman then instead of defining yourself as ‘trans’  it only implies
you are ‘different’ and somehow not a woman or vice versa. 

The two people on here who fall into this definition of trans
Are Soph and Kayleigh.

I have only been here a couple of months but I can tell you, in
my mind  Soph = Boy    Kayleigh = girl
Now that is ingrained in my brain because that is how they presented
themselves when I joined.

I think some of the issues are to do with the members who have been here
since the Boer War and when introduced to Kayleigh,  they were actually
Introduced to a boy.  I think the fact that some don’t always’s refer to her
As ‘she’ is simply due to this factor.  I don’t think there is anything sinister
going on at all.    I don’t call that ‘transphobic’.

You are what you are.  To me  Soph = Boy    Kayleigh = girl
Now that to me is simple to understand.  I don’t need to know your
History,  or what you used to be, or how you perceived yourself to be?
This is an internet forum,  it doesn’t matter to me if you say you are a man then
In my mind you are male.  If you say you are a woman then,  the same applies.

We all got shit to deal with.  I am concerned about my little boy at the moment,
Therefore I have to admit I have done little about educating myself on these issues.

You can say I am an apathetic cow, or uneducated or just lazy – but I resent being
Called transphobic just for the fact that I haven’t really ‘embraced’ the idea myself and
apart from the video in this thread I have no idea what issues you do face?  I have made a
mental note to do some reading and swat up on it, really out of respect for fellow forum
members (I know Kayleigh wants to quit but still leaves soph who seems pretty cool)

Saying that it is not, and never will be on my ‘urgent things to do list’  and why would
It be?

To sum up basically I keep hearing about transphobic comments.
I haven’t seen any -  please show me what you mean?  Without
them,  it does make
It look like you are trying to get some kind of special treatment.  I think everyone
Is special, in their  own way.  I am afraid I don’t see you as any more
special than anyone else.   

[Al Swearegen]

No my friend if Kayleigh wants to flounce in here and rail again us all collecively for being transphobic and lecture us and telll us what our values must be if we do not share their then it is KAYLEIGH that forfeits the right of said respect from their own action.
Kaleigh gets what they get for acting like a pompous, arrogant blowhard.

So Your point is something like. Kayleigh can be an arsehole and if we don't "respect" their arrogance and bigotry, then we "then don't expect anyone to treat you with any love"?

Well that makes fuck all sense and i think you know that.

I'd like to point out that everyone here can be labeled a "pompous, arrogant blowhard."

So that hypocrisy means the position is invalid or valid or are you just deflecting?

The fact is, you need to give respect to get respect. That applies to everyone on any subject. If you don't show respect and acknowledgement to an individual, you don't make friends and you make poor precedents of previous behavior next time you want to argue for respect and such from someone else.

Indeed. Was how Kayleigh spoke of NOT JUST ODEON but others and also generally the membership as a whole

a) disrespectful
b) respectful

if it was a) ought Kaleigh (according to your very own above quote), be treated with respect or disrespect.

Come on not a hard one and please don't go down the path of justified or considering or what have you. Straight up, you say that respect begets respect and i ask you was Kayleigh's words and actions respectful.

It's kind of petty picking at words instead of meaning. So why don't people start by presenting their views on transsexualism and why they don't want to respect her choice of pronouns and such.

Why does Kayleigh want to not respect other people's right to their own world perspective without contesting that if it doesn't fall into precise boundaries in Kayleigh's perceptions, that they are not necessarily wrong, bad or bigoted but just hold different points of view?

Isn't what you are asking one way traffic in respect to this valued respect?

Poor defence so far to be honest and hardly devil's advocate

[eris]

I read the whole thread, and I don't remember anyone being "transphobic". I also didnt really see any insulting or hatred going on at all. I think that people should try to be less sensitive and let things roll of their backs. I know that if you went to the hillbilly town I am from, and try to say you are some other gender you are likely to get beat up. THAT is transphobia.

['andersom']

I think some of the issues are to do with the members who have been here
since the Boer War and when introduced to Kayleigh,  they were actually
Introduced to a boy.  I think the fact that some don’t always’s refer to her
As ‘she’ is simply due to this factor.  I don’t think there is anything sinister
going on at all.    I don’t call that ‘transphobic’.

True that.

And, the sweetheart of this board, she got hurt in the process.

I think that not being a woman really was no option for Kayleigh. But, most of the members here will think of Ren when reading about GA. And we saw her getting hurt in the months and months before Kayleigh did decide to go through with coming out as a woman.
This will be there. She is still hurt. Kayleigh had no option to play a man longer. But, at least she was in control of what happened then. Ren had no options at all, and no control. She saw who she loved dearly and had not even that long ago pledged herself to change and grow away from her.
And of course Kayleigh never wanted to hurt her. But, it was unavoidable. And most of us here just adore Ren here and always have I think.

Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.
I think a lot of people of the board are hoping Soph finds courage and possibilities to get a step further towards hormones.

This thread is confusing, because there are so many personal issues mixed in it.

[Parts]

 

[eris]

Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.

yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.

['andersom']

Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.

yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.

How come you can say it in so little words and I need a whole paragraph?

Not fair.

[GalileoAce]

http://www.education.tas.gov.au/school/health/inclusive/antidiscrimination/gender/what-is-transphobia

[GalileoAce]

Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.

yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.

Then why couldn't they criticise my conduct instead of attacking me as a transperson?

I really have no idea why people have a problem with me. I guess it's a moot point really.

[Al Swearegen]

Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.

yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.

Then why couldn't they criticise my conduct instead of attacking me as a transperson?

I really have no idea why people have a problem with me. I guess it's a moot point really.

Which do you think will have the greatest effect- attacking you personally for your woeful personality and bigoted arrogant views or attacking you as a transperson? i would suggest any member on this board you loathe to attack whichever has the greatest effect on you. As a result you may decide to leave as a result.

oh ....wait a minute...



(For what it is worth I and many here can not see all these imaginary implied or expressed slights and attacks. I think you are cloud gazing and seeing shit that just isn't there. I think that your personal investment in transgenderism is not what everyone else's is and I think that your personal values are not what others's are. People do not generally give a shit and nor have any reason to. Like it or not. We are not bigots we just don't care. You see the difference, zealot? No? Not surprised)

[eris]

Part of what is seen here as transphobia has to do with Kayleigh, not with the trans-stuff.

yes I think that is it. I saw it as some people just being irked by her personally, not that she is trans.

Then why couldn't they criticise my conduct instead of attacking me as a transperson?

I really have no idea why people have a problem with me. I guess it's a moot point really.

I don't have a problem with you. I don't think Ive ever even talked to you. Truth is not everyone really knows all the intricacies of being trans, and may not even know what is offensive or not offensive. I once read on here someone said they didnt like gypsies. Now I didnt go get all offended and call him out, more like laughed and let it slide. I don't think that people were really saying anything bad about "trans", just about "you". I think acting sensitive about anything here, no matter what it is, will leave the doors open for criticism.

[GalileoAce]

Which do you think will have the greatest effect- attacking you personally for your woeful personality and bigoted arrogant views or attacking you as a transperson? i would suggest any member on this board you loathe to attack whichever has the greatest effect on you. As a result you may decide to leave as a result.

oh ....wait a minute...

If there were any doubt left that you are little more than a troll, you just washed them away. You're a total arsehole.

"Woeful personality"? Wow.

You keep saying I'm bigotted and arrogant. But I see no evidence of these claims. When asked to present any you just go off on another trollish rant. You're true colours are showing, you better be careful lest others realise what you really are.

Your argument is incredibly flawed. You claim that I do not conduct myself appropriately. (though I fail to see how that related to me "woeful personality") And yet you claim that attacking my being trans will have the greatest effect. Effect for what? To change my behaviour? That's absurd, attacking my being trans only upsets me, I learn nothing from such attacks.

(For what it is worth I and many here can not see all these imaginary implied or expressed slights and attacks. I think you are cloud gazing and seeing shit that just isn't there. I think that your personal investment in transgenderism is not what everyone else's is and I think that your personal values are not what others's are. People do not generally give a shit and nor have any reason to. Like it or not. We are not bigots we just don't care. You see the difference, zealot? No? Not surprised)

My personal investment in transgenderism is not what everyone else's is? NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK.

See a difference? You haven't made any logical comparison for me to see a difference. What? I'm different than most people here? Well duh. I already knew that. Did you not?

I may be a zealot, but at least I fight for something I believe in. I guess all you have is trolling autistics and getting your jollies that way. I know who I'd rather be.