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Author Topic: The right to bear arms  (Read 22313 times)

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Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2006, 03:50:34 PM »
However, with a strict gun policy you do diminish the chances for most people to get a gun and thus you diminish the amount of possible killers.

And the amount of people able to defend themselves against the criminals and corrupt politicians...

Offline QuirkyCarla

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2006, 03:58:31 PM »
When I said they can backfire on you, I meant if you try to protect yourself with a gun, the person trying to attack you might be able to take your gun from you and use it against you. Also, there are still a lot of idiots out there who don't make their guns unaccessible to their children. Even if that's illegal, it doesn't mean that won't happen. The police usually won't find out until it's too late and someone's gotten hurt. What we need in the US is more gun control at the very least.

Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2006, 04:16:20 PM »
What do you anti-gunners think that this part of the 2 Amendment means: "---being necessary for the security of a free state---" ?

You simply can't get what that means, can you? It means that the people's freedom is depending on their ability to defend themself. "The state" here means "the citizens", unlike today, when it means some piece of shit hypocrite politicians who are faking that they're for democracy.

Offline Kiss_my_AS

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2006, 05:10:52 PM »
However, with a strict gun policy you do diminish the chances for most people to get a gun and thus you diminish the amount of possible killers.

And the amount of people able to defend themselves against the criminals and corrupt politicians...

Again, no system (liberal or non-liberal) is perfect, but it's about the amount of unnecessary victims. It's about the use of guns when it's not actually needed. It's about the risks that come with and the conseuquences of them. I already explained that in my 2nd post in this thread.

Try to look at it with a bigger picture. People are more likely to become murderers if they have the facilities to do it. That can be for a mulitude of reasons ranging from self-defense to hate crime. In my country we have lots hooligans and bad youngsters (or aspiring ones) that aren't linked to the criminal circuit, which would be necessary to get a hold of a gun. If we'd get a liberal gun policy chances are more likely that they will get a gun, with unknown amount of deaths that is likely to follow. Plus the amount of people in personal crises, poor people and drunk people/latent lunatics.

Note that I do not say that it's a fact they will all get a gun and kill someone, but you do increase the risk on that scenario.

Also the comparison that Odeon made between Sweden and the US, isn't very different from the comparison that could be made between the US and my country; the US really has an extremely high score when compared to those countries. It's about alternatives, of which the US chose one and my country chose another - and in a way we had to give something up for the maintaining of each specific policy. We gave up more power to defend ourselves, true, but we end up with a lesser amount of gun victims while the vast majority of us makes it through life without a gun for self-defense.

Looking at the results of both policies until now, I´m glad my country chose for it´s own kind of policy. You and I may differ from our stance towards this topic Litigious, but in the end we have to prepared for the prices we have to pay for our choices. If you are able to do that (and I have no reason to believe you won't), you can voice your opinion all you want. As long as you try to look at it from different points and see the good and and bad in all the ways to deal with this problem - including the one of your choice.

Offline odeon

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2006, 05:15:35 PM »
Quote from: odeon
I, for one, am happy to live in a country where getting a handgun is difficult.


There is a pretty well known immigrated couple, who owned a restaurant in Gothenburg who are victims of blackmailing from a motorcycle gang. Do you think it's fair to them that the police can't protect them and that they can't protect themselves either due to our cowardly gun law? Would you like to be in their situation?

What, exactly, do you believe would be different if that restaurant owner had a gun? That the gang would stay away? Please. If you believe that, you're more naive than I thought.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline odeon

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2006, 05:22:56 PM »
We all must remember this it is not the gun that kills it is the person behind and pulling that trigger that kills.

Exactly. That's about the core of my arguement. Anything within reason can be used to kill (household chemicals, common tools, over the counter drugs, etc.), it's the intent of the user that counts.

-Corey

A gun makes it easy. Too easy. The act of killing another human--or yourself--becomes a spur of the moment thing in the wrong hands. Household chemicals, over the counter drugs, et cetera, change the act to premeditated but also take time and effort, and the moment passes more often than not.

Tools in the house belong to the instant category, and thus comprise a significant part of the statistics.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

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Litigious

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2006, 05:28:56 PM »


What, exactly, do you believe would be different if that restaurant owner had a gun? That the gang would stay away? Please. If you believe that, you're more naive than I thought.

A single person can't do much (or anything) against a gang like that, but if all decent people were armed and determined to pay back on those bastards, then there might be a difference. Enough vigilantes can pay back on those scum, if they are united and determined.

Offline Nomaken

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2006, 05:47:56 PM »
I think that privately owning weapons will only cause harm.  However people who wanna commit crimes will get weapons through the black market.  This might seem like a point supporting legal carrying of weapons.  However I propose something else.  I propose it be legal to buy weapons, and own weapons, but not to have them on your person or in public(except firing ranges and designated hunting areas).  Now you may ask yourself, how can you purchase weapons if you can't carry weapons, well you could have it sent to your home.

Now what this would mean is that incase we need to rebel against the government, we'll probably at the time be having little regard for the law enforcement considering they are part of the government, so incase we really decide to rebel, we can choose to disregard that law, but at every other time, having guns in public usually results in them being misused.  So during peacetime, people that shouldnt be using guns in public will get in trouble.  And gun nuts will still get to enjoy owning guns. 
And as always, these are simply my worthless opinions.
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Offline Kiss_my_AS

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2006, 05:49:29 PM »


What, exactly, do you believe would be different if that restaurant owner had a gun? That the gang would stay away? Please. If you believe that, you're more naive than I thought.

A single person can't do much (or anything) against a gang like that, but if all decent people were armed and determined to pay back on those bastards, then there might be a difference. Enough vigilantes can pay back on those scum, if they are united and determined.

I see your point, but we don't have to use vigilantes for that. A better and efficient use of police officers should have the same effect and with that, many people who weren't involved with those criminals still don't have to.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 05:51:25 PM by Kiss_my_AS »

Offline odeon

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2006, 05:50:34 PM »


What, exactly, do you believe would be different if that restaurant owner had a gun? That the gang would stay away? Please. If you believe that, you're more naive than I thought.

A single person can't do much (or anything) against a gang like that, but if all decent people were armed and determined to pay back on those bastards, then there might be a difference. Enough vigilantes can pay back on those scum, if they are united and determined.

That sort of thinking hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried. The US, Sicily, Iraq... It just leads to more violence, more people dead, and lots of innocent people caught in the middle.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

- Albert Einstein

Offline Kiss_my_AS

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2006, 05:56:06 PM »


What, exactly, do you believe would be different if that restaurant owner had a gun? That the gang would stay away? Please. If you believe that, you're more naive than I thought.

A single person can't do much (or anything) against a gang like that, but if all decent people were armed and determined to pay back on those bastards, then there might be a difference. Enough vigilantes can pay back on those scum, if they are united and determined.

That sort of thinking hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried. The US, Sicily, Iraq... It just leads to more violence, more people dead, and lots of innocent people caught in the middle.

Thanks for that post Odeon. It helped to illustrate the last point that I tried to make.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 06:01:56 PM by Kiss_my_AS »

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2006, 07:37:15 PM »
What do y'all think of the Japanese system:  It is legal to own as many guns as you want :tooledup:
but it is illegal to own any bullets  :bssign:
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Offline SausageofPower

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2006, 08:27:35 PM »
However, with a strict gun policy you do diminish the chances for most people to get a gun and thus you diminish the amount of possible killers.

I could point to the War on Drugs and the increase in availability and potency of illicit narcotics such as heroin in the past 30 years to effectively counter your argument. Besides, since a great deal of guns are imported (Beretta is Italian, IMI is Israeli, and Springfield Armory uses parts from Brazil), the reality is that guns could still be smuggled into the U.S. or any other country. Besides, guns can be custom made by those with the right equipment. They're not the most complicated devices in the world.

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I meant if you try to protect yourself with a gun, the person trying to attack you might be able to take your gun from you and use it against you. Also, there are still a lot of idiots out there who don't make their guns unaccessible to their children. Even if that's illegal, it doesn't mean that won't happen. The police usually won't find out until it's too late and someone's gotten hurt. What we need in the US is more gun control at the very least.

Yes, there is always that problem when defending yourself. If someone attacks me and I throw a punch, they may catch and break my arm. If I run, they could trip me. For every action, there is an effective counter. Does that mean you surrender without any type of resistance? I wouldn't, personally.

Personally, I find it somewhat amusing (forgive me) that you argue for gun control, and in the same paragraph admit that gun laws pertaining to keeping firearms out of the reach of minors are basically ineffective. Wouldn't the obvious solution be education? Government bodies have shown themselves to be poor at regulating much of anything (border security, the war on drugs, fiscal spending, etc.), I wouldn't want them to try and juggle another ball when they're already dropping all the others.

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Try to look at it with a bigger picture. People are more likely to become murderers if they have the facilities to do it.

That's an ignorant statement, in my honest opinion. Having the facilities to perform an action doesn't necessarily mean one would do it. I own 5 guns, as previously mentioned, and have never shot any living thing. I don't plan on it, and never want to. Just as I won't rape my girlfriend when she's unconscious, or step on my cat's head to kill him in his sleep. Having the means to do something is only one part, the other being the motive. Motive, in all honesty, is the greater of the two. I could beat someone to death with my bare hands if so driven to that point, as could anyone else.

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A gun makes it easy. Too easy. The act of killing another human--or yourself--becomes a spur of the moment thing in the wrong hands. Household chemicals, over the counter drugs, et cetera, change the act to premeditated but also take time and effort, and the moment passes more often than not.

I disagree. From a scientific standpoint, all methods of killing are equal when applied equally. If I put a 9mm hole in someone's heart, it will have the same effect as a bladed weapon being stabbing into the same region or a jarring enough blow to the torso to cause sudden arrhythmia death syndrome: Death. If I punch someone and break their Hyoid bone, they will die likewise. Besides, if one is prone to fits of violence, could you not reason that (gun or no) they will inflict harm on another person?

Also, I think many people here are not really familiar with the science of forensics. Gunshot wounds are not automatically fatal, more often than not even a trained marksman will not achieve a fatal shot. Are they still a deadly weapon? Of course, but it's not like a video game where one bullet = one kill.

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A single person can't do much (or anything) against a gang like that, but if all decent people were armed and determined to pay back on those bastards, then there might be a difference. Enough vigilantes can pay back on those scum, if they are united and determined.

Eh, you've gotta be careful with that kind of mentality. Historically, most gangs were actually founded with that viewpoint in mind. Truthfully, the ideal would be that (with all citizens being armed and equal) no one would be powerless and easily able to be exploited.

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I propose it be legal to buy weapons, and own weapons, but not to have them on your person or in public(except firing ranges and designated hunting areas).  Now you may ask yourself, how can you purchase weapons if you can't carry weapons, well you could have it sent to your home.

Again, you run into the stumbling block of "criminals don't respect the law". If only those who were legally licensed to carry guns carried them, firearms related crime would be a lot lower, but it's not the case. As for having firearms sent to your home, that's a violation of federal law in the United States as you must have a federally issued license to receive firearms directly.

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So during peacetime, people that shouldnt be using guns in public will get in trouble.  And gun nuts will still get to enjoy owning guns.

"People that shouldn't be using guns in public," as you put it, exist now. And there are laws that make it illegal for them to do so. You're missing a key part of your equation: enforcement. Anyone can sign a law into being, however without the enforcement part of the equation, it's a waste of time.

Now, if you wanted to make a totalitarian government, you could do that, but I wouldn't want to live under such a body.

----

Of those who want gun control/bans, I have to ask:

How much do you really know about guns? Their mechanical function? Statistics of legally owned guns being used in crimes versus those acquired illegally? Self-defense vs. violent crimes? The science of ballistics? How firearms rank versus other causes of homocide?

Think about this. The Bureau of Justice Statistics, part of the U.S. Department of Justice reports that according to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

    * a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
    * a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
   * family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

I'm just saying, I can give you statistics and reasoning for why I believe guns should be available to lawful citizens. All I can really see from the other side is conjecture and opinion without any concrete support. Most of them say "We need more gun control!" but when you ask why, all they can say is that guns cause crime. To me, that's ignorant. Get rid of guns, and those who wish to do violence onto others will simply find another method. Meanwhile, lawful owners (the only ones impacted by such bans/regulations) will be the ones you hurt.

-Corey
« Last Edit: October 31, 2006, 08:31:30 PM by SausageofPower »

Scrapheap

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2006, 11:49:20 PM »

Mind you that having a strict gun policy isn't a perfect solution, but it does decrease the amount of gun-owners and thus the amount of possible killers (for whatever reason they might kill somebody). Every murder is one too many, but if we are speaking in numbers I'd rather choose the lowest amount of gun victims.



This statement ingnores much of what was already said about gun violence. Redicnig the number of guns in LEGAL circulation has'nt had an effect on crime anywhere that I've seen. Nor does it make sense that it would. Gunsa can always come from different sources especially here in America where we have a border with Mexico that you could  pass an entire Army through without getting caught.

Care to guess how many illegal guns will be smuggled in from Mexico if guns got outlawed in the US???

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Re: The right to bear arms
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2006, 11:56:07 PM »
The ownership of these weapons aren't going to increase the crime rate

I beg to differ. Compare the number of people killed every year in gun-related violence in the US, where gun laws are very liberal, to  similar statistics in Sweden, where the gun laws are strict. 41 people died in gun-related violence in the year 2000 in Sweden. Compare this to the number of casualties in gun-related violence in the US per year--about 11,000.

Taking into account the difference in population between the two countries, the fact remains that the occurence of gun-related violence in Sweden is one tenth of that in the US.

I rest my case.



That's apple to oranges and you should know better!!

Sweeden is lucky enough not to have the societal problems that have been imported into American culture.

When you analyzie crime statistics in America, a dirty little secret about criminal activity appears. Most criminologists know this and the stats have been published in different sources.

Crime in America follows racial lines. The crime rates for whites in america reflect those of Europe. the crime rates of Asians reflect those in Asia. The crime rates of Mexicans reflect crime rates in Mexico. The crime rates of Blacks reflect those of Africa.......... I don't see how anyone is suprised by this. The fruit after all, never falls far from the tree.........