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Author Topic: Aspergers and Schizophrenia  (Read 5445 times)

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Offline El

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2010, 06:41:15 PM »
Seems like half (or more) of the frickin' disorders can masquerade as PDDs, not just the psychotic disorders. 

If you're depressed, you'll have reduced affect.  If you're anxious, you won't maintain normal eye contact.  If you have trauma or a long-term mental illness (or both) you stand a good chance of having been undersocialized and/or having lost a lot of friends and not have much of a social group and/or having learned to hate people at some point and thus be somewhat isolationist and have social skills that are atrophying.  (Also, your family members will remember you having had 'problems' since childhood.)  If you have a hangover you have sensory issues.  Same with hallucinogens.  If you're on downers your affect is fucked up.  If you're on virtually *any* substance your social skills are altered, your affect is fucked up.  If you're trying to distract your therapist you might go on forever about your interests to avoid talking about anything too close to home.

There are about a billion other iterations, with more symptoms, substances, circumstances and disorders.  To a hammer everything looks like a nail.  Short of neuropsych testing, it takes more than a quick run down a symptom checlist to get an accurate idea of what's happening.  Supposedly the DSM doesn't imply etiology (except with RAD), but given current knowledge of PDDs, you don't expect the same interventions to do the same things for someone with an ASD versus someone who is undersocialized and depressed.  Yet, they could have the same exact damn symptoms, at first (and might self-reort a comperable history).

...I totally did not just go off on a rant for incredably obvious reasons (to folks who know me, anyway).   :laugh:
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Offline maldoror

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2010, 12:13:44 AM »


I've heard this before and have done a little reading on it. The symptoms of the two can be very similar, but they are very different.


http://www.steadyhealth.com/articles/Schizophrenia_and_Autism_a330.html

The problem with this article and with the DSM in general is that it's vague. Nobody knows what autism, or Schizophrenia is, so they are categorized based solely on behavioral traits. It's pretty well known that Schizophrenia is thought to involve excess Dopamine circulation, but that is not involved in a diagnosis.

To put it another way, the symptoms of the two disorders don't have to be very different. The same person could be diagnosed with either a PDD or Schizophrenia depending on which doctor he sees and which symptoms he emphasizes. The main criteria someone would use to distinguish between those two categories is the presence of positive symptoms like hallucinations. The problem is there are some types of Schizophrenia that don't include positive symptoms.

Seems like half (or more) of the frickin' disorders can masquerade as PDDs, not just the psychotic disorders. 

If you're depressed, you'll have reduced affect.  If you're anxious, you won't maintain normal eye contact.  If you have trauma or a long-term mental illness (or both) you stand a good chance of having been undersocialized and/or having lost a lot of friends and not have much of a social group and/or having learned to hate people at some point and thus be somewhat isolationist and have social skills that are atrophying.  (Also, your family members will remember you having had 'problems' since childhood.)  If you have a hangover you have sensory issues.  Same with hallucinogens.  If you're on downers your affect is fucked up.  If you're on virtually *any* substance your social skills are altered, your affect is fucked up.  If you're trying to distract your therapist you might go on forever about your interests to avoid talking about anything too close to home.

There are about a billion other iterations, with more symptoms, substances, circumstances and disorders.  To a hammer everything looks like a nail.  Short of neuropsych testing, it takes more than a quick run down a symptom checlist to get an accurate idea of what's happening.  Supposedly the DSM doesn't imply etiology (except with RAD), but given current knowledge of PDDs, you don't expect the same interventions to do the same things for someone with an ASD versus someone who is undersocialized and depressed.  Yet, they could have the same exact damn symptoms, at first (and might self-reort a comperable history).

...I totally did not just go off on a rant for incredably obvious reasons (to folks who know me, anyway).   :laugh:

An anxiety disorder could produce symptoms like bad eye contact, bad social skills, and even flat affect. But the clue to something more pervasive than an anxiety disorder (and this is my theory, not based on anything I can remember reading) is bad coordination. I don't just mean physical coordination, but physical and cognitive coordination, and probably other types of coordination. It's sort of like having the potential to be verbally lucid or physically agile, but different processes don't connect right, and something that should be simple ends up being very laborous. Sometimes other people don't notice, especially depending on the age of a person. For example, when I was a kid, I had an awkward gait when runnning. Now I can run normally, but it takes a certain amount of effort to move my limbs the right way. I know it isn't normal, because if I didn't use that effort, I would run unnaturally.
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Offline 'andersom'

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2010, 01:15:45 AM »
Keeps me wondering, those diagnoses.

When I was having mine, a few years ago, I read a lot of the magazines in the waitingroom. One article was about a study showing that percentage wise much more young emigrated Moroccan males got diagnosed with schizophrenia than of any other population. I wonder how many autistic males have gotten the wrong label there, because of the cultural differences in showing odd behaviour. There could of course be a genetic "talent". But with cultural influences, there is a great possibility of missing things in a behavioural diagnosis I think.

Another diagnosis, often mistaken for aspergers seems to be the schizotypal personality disorder. One that seems to be "related" to schizophrenia, but also to a lot of other personality disorders.
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Offline renaeden

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2010, 02:27:32 AM »
There is also schizoid personality disorder. I was diagnosed with it just before I got my assessment for HFA. Lately I have been thinking that there is some truth to the diagnosis whereas before I dismissed it entirely.
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Offline El

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2010, 04:51:06 AM »

An anxiety disorder could produce symptoms like bad eye contact, bad social skills, and even flat affect. But the clue to something more pervasive than an anxiety disorder (and this is my theory, not based on anything I can remember reading) is bad coordination. I don't just mean physical coordination, but physical and cognitive coordination, and probably other types of coordination. It's sort of like having the potential to be verbally lucid or physically agile, but different processes don't connect right, and something that should be simple ends up being very laborous. Sometimes other people don't notice, especially depending on the age of a person. For example, when I was a kid, I had an awkward gait when runnning. Now I can run normally, but it takes a certain amount of effort to move my limbs the right way. I know it isn't normal, because if I didn't use that effort, I would run unnaturally.
Musculoskeletal problems could mimick that.  :P

There's prolly no one thing that will act as a catch-all differentiator.
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Offline Lemon Aguilera

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2010, 10:38:01 AM »
i think head doctors are a bunch of hooplah and don't know anything. they come up with these explanations for how we are when sometimes not everything is a disease.

and anyway anxiety can't explain all the other stuff in autism, like was said. and meds can be excluded since they are detectable. sure someone can seem autistic, like autistics can seem normal. but you have to get to know them. doctors are superficial and supposedly experts. when every person is unique. a true expert is a friend, not just a doctor. in the olden days doctors were close to their patients and knew their quirks.

now they all worship the DSM and paychecks. fuck that shit.
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Offline Lemon Aguilera

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2010, 10:39:09 AM »

Musculoskeletal problems could mimick that.  :P

There's prolly no one thing that will act as a catch-all differentiator.

how do musculoskeletal things mimick that? i have a problem with coordination and it has nothing to do with my muscles. or my skeleton.
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Offline El

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #82 on: June 23, 2010, 04:56:16 AM »

Musculoskeletal problems could mimick that.  :P

There's prolly no one thing that will act as a catch-all differentiator.

how do musculoskeletal things mimick that? i have a problem with coordination and it has nothing to do with my muscles. or my skeleton.
Defensiveness casus basic logic override.   :duh: 

I didn't imply that your diagnosis is wrong nor that musculoskeletal problems are the only cause of poor coordination.  The fact that you jumped to that conclusion makes me think I/this thread touched a nerve, as does this: 

i think head doctors are a bunch of hooplah and don't know anything. they come up with these explanations for how we are when sometimes not everything is a disease.

and anyway anxiety can't explain all the other stuff in autism, like was said. and meds can be excluded since they are detectable. sure someone can seem autistic, like autistics can seem normal. but you have to get to know them. doctors are superficial and supposedly experts. when every person is unique. a true expert is a friend, not just a doctor. in the olden days doctors were close to their patients and knew their quirks.

now they all worship the DSM and paychecks. fuck that shit.
it is well known that PMS Elle is evil.
I think you'd fit in a 12" or at least a 16" firework mortar
You win this thread because that's most unsettling to even think about.

Offline Lemon Aguilera

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #83 on: June 23, 2010, 07:16:42 AM »
dude, i said that tongue in cheek. i think you're defensive. i drink beer when i post.
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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #84 on: June 23, 2010, 07:36:35 AM »
dude, i said that tongue in cheek. i think you're defensive. i drink beer when i post.

Maybe you've just explained your coordination problem!  :zoinks:
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Offline Lemon Aguilera

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2010, 08:32:53 AM »
what about you wobbler!? :P
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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #86 on: June 23, 2010, 08:46:46 AM »
what about you wobbler!? :P

I wobble, but I don't fall down! Can you say the same, you pickled lemon?  :laugh:
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Offline Lemon Aguilera

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2010, 09:09:01 AM »
you're the pickled one!

lemons roll they don't wobble. :asthing:
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Offline "couldbecousin"

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #88 on: June 23, 2010, 09:12:23 AM »
you're the pickled one!

lemons roll they don't wobble. :asthing:

Exactly, they roll because they can't stay upright, you beer-swilling fish garnish!  :laugh:


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Offline Lemon Aguilera

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Re: Aspergers and Schizophrenia
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2010, 09:14:26 AM »
fish garnish! hahaha i wish i could plus you. and eat you. you delicious mayonnaise ingredient.
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