Discuss GalileoAce

[GalileoAce]

I'm not a he. Dammit.

[Christopher McCandless]

What has religion got to do with being gay? 

Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.

Eh?  You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...

Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.

I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! 

Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...

I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! 

Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.

Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.

So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay?  

I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.

In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.

This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.

No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.

And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?

I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.

But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?

The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.

Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?

Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.

[Osensitive1]

Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.

Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?

Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.

Ok. That makes sense. Then replace money with political capital, same question.

[Christopher McCandless]

Humans individually are quite intelligent. But in groups they are not. This has been proven in at least one study, possibly more.

So why on earth would anyone want to follow what society says?

Most of the time you do what society says, whether you admit to it or not. Its about picking your battles.

Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?

You're a moron. Standing up for minority rights, no matter the group can only help other minorities, pave the way as it were.

Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.

Oh boo fucking hoo. You need to try harder then. There's hundreds of thousands of voices out there all clamouring to heard by the various governments and institutions. You just need to make yourself be heard.

Gay people are obviously better at it than you are. So go cry me river, you sook.

Oh - because whoever shouts the loudest should get what they want. Whilst it fits with your level of maturity, it is not the way things should be.

Of course, it would be a lot easier to get things done if people with AS had more self respect...

Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.

Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?

Exactly. Funding isn't linear. The governments could hand out funding to the gay cause (or not as the case most likely is, considering it's almost entirely self funded), whilst still giving funding to disability rights.

Just because one group gets something doesn't mean other's won't. You're thinking to narrowly and linearly.

Most people with AS have few opportunities, are not included in society and as a result the majority have mental health problems. 3% of us live independently. Over 80% of us are out of employment. Gay people have it very good in comparision.

I am telling it how it is. Its not my problem that you don't like it.

[Christopher McCandless]

I wish he would take you off ignore, only for the fact of, it shows he is strong in what he believes in.

Most of your beliefs are based on theory, not your own personal practice.

I don't see why he should take him off ignore, really.  Hadron is obviously a bigot who argues the contrary position regardless of the facts.  

I guess you could argue that dealing with Hadron here could be practice for dealing with ignorant bigots IRL when GA leaves home dressed as a woman.

The only fact here is that GA has decided to be a woman. He has made a choice here. Rather than deal with the fact he has AS, he has decided to make himself more socially ostracised and then blame society for doing so. Its exactly this sort of thing which undermines legitmate efforts to sort things out for us all.

[Blasted]

Debating with Hadron over gay issues is pointless.  He won't change his mind or be any less deluded.

[Christopher McCandless]

Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.

Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?

Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.

Ok. That makes sense. Then replace money with political capital, same question.

Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.

[Christopher McCandless]

Debating with Hadron over gay issues is pointless.  He won't change his mind or be any less deluded.

Your the ones who make claims without backing them up, not myself. Just like the Pope, you would block any legitimate scientist from properly investigating them. We all know what happens if a result turns up that goes against the gay rights movements doctrine. The scientist gets their name dragged through the mud and loses their career, even if they were 100% right.

["couldbecousin"]

What has religion got to do with being gay? 

Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.

Eh?  You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...

Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.

I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! 

Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...

I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! 

Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.

Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.

So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay?  

I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.

In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.

This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.

No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.

And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?

I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.

But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?

The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.

Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?

Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.

I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. 

[Blasted]

Debating with Hadron over gay issues is pointless.  He won't change his mind or be any less deluded.

Your the ones who make claims without backing them up, not myself. Just like the Pope, you would block any legitimate scientist from properly investigating them. We all know what happens if a result turns up that goes against the gay rights movements doctrine. The scientist gets their name dragged through the mud and loses their career, even if they were 100% right.

See? 

I've had a similar discussion with him countless times.

["couldbecousin"]

Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.

Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?

Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.

Ok. That makes sense. Then replace money with political capital, same question.

Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.

Gay rights have not been "solved" as long as gay couples are unable to marry. And, THEY need to move out of OUR way? Can you not grasp the possibility of someone being both gay AND on the autistic spectrum?

[Christopher McCandless]

What has religion got to do with being gay? 

Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.

Eh?  You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...

Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.

I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! 

Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...

I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! 

Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.

Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.

So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay?  

I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.

In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.

This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.

No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.

And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?

I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.

But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?

The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.

Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?

Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.

I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. 

I think you need to stop trying to put words into my mouth and making things as black and white as you seem to need it to be. Sexuality is a choice, as I have said. The most logical choice tends to be the one that produces children.

Now you need to explain why any of these groups have a stronger argument for what they want than any strongly religious group. Explain why they deserve it more. Rather than trying to roll my argument into something which I have never made.

[Eclair]

I wish he would take you off ignore, only for the fact of, it shows he is strong in what he believes in.

Most of your beliefs are based on theory, not your own personal practice.

I don't see why he should take him off ignore, really.  Hadron is obviously a bigot who argues the contrary position regardless of the facts.  

I guess you could argue that dealing with Hadron here could be practice for dealing with ignorant bigots IRL when GA leaves home dressed as a woman.

The only fact here is that GA has decided to be a woman. He has made a choice here. Rather than deal with the fact he has AS, he has decided to make himself more socially ostracised and then blame society for doing so. Its exactly this sort of thing which undermines legitmate efforts to sort things out for us all.

I'd suggest you add to your reading GID - Gender Identity Disorder and Aspergers Syndrome.

I don't get the theme that GA is blaming society. Narrowmindedness, perhaps is your affliction Hadron...maybe you have AS and can't bend your black and white theories?

I go back to the fact that GA has had these feelings since a young child. If this is the way s/he can operate in the world and feel whole and able to contribute, then what skin is it off your nose?

[Osensitive1]

Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.

Animal rights could still be competition. It could be argued gay right haven't been solved. Treating them as a pariah is still written into the legislature of many states when it comes to marriage and adoption. Completely agree more attention is required for rights of the disabled, but unconvinced the government would suddenly be filled with an outpouring of interest if gay rights were no longer a concern.

[GalileoAce]

Oh - because whoever shouts the loudest should get what they want. Whilst it fits with your level of maturity, it is not the way things should be.

Most of the time you do what society says, whether you admit to it or not. Its about picking your battles.

Either you want to change things. Or you don't. Which is it?

if you want to change things, doesn't that mean, inherently, you've failed society? Are you just hiding behind Autism?

The only fact here is that GA has decided to be a woman. He has made a choice here. Rather than deal with the fact he has AS, he has decided to make himself more socially ostracised and then blame society for doing so. Its exactly this sort of thing which undermines legitmate efforts to sort things out for us all.

Thank you for telling me how I think. It's so gratifying to have you in my head to be able to tell me these things. /sarcasm

Seriously...Who the fuck do you think you are? Telling me and other's what and why I'm doing this? How would you know? You don't know me. You don't know my life.
I've dealt/am dealing with my Autism just fine. I came to terms with it a long time ago. It's not some scary add-on, part rather a part of me. I am Autistic. Autism is me. I spent years trying to understand autism, and what it meant to me. How it affected to me. I did this during high school, not exactly and easy task when it was an all boys' school, and I was actually mentally female. I have accepted who I am, and what that means, for my abilities, for my strengths and for my weaknesses. I know myself, and I know myself well. Do you? Somehow I don't think so. You keep fighting, but is your fight misdirected?

Just as neither of us decided to be Autistic, I did not decide to be transgender. I didn't choose to have a female mind and male body. I didn't choose to be Autistic and Asexual. I just am. It is me. This is who I am. Do not presume to tell me who I am. I know me better than you will ever know me. I've done year and years of soul searching, questing, uming and ahing over every detail. It took me 15yrs to even talk about my cross-gendered feelings to someone. And a further 6-7yrs to do something about it. So don't tell me I just decided like it was some whim. This has been years in the making. YEARS.


So kindly take your supercilious ass wankery and shove it.





No one's rights are "solved" until everyone has the same and equal rights. EVERYONE. I don't care who or what they are, they deserve the same equal rights as everyone else. Be they gay, disabled, racial minority, religious, non-religious, anything.

There is no justification for prejudice.