I hope Les has another heart attack soon

[Blasted]

What the fuck are you on about  :lol:

[Alex179]

What the fuck are you on about  :lol:

The truth that you are in denial about.   People are just apes that wear clothes and dress up in attempts to establish individuality.   Other than to keep warm, clothes do not serve as much of a purpose other than to separate people.

[Adam]

There are biological men that aren't even men in a sense that they don't know what being a man is about.    

Enlighten us then. What is being a man all about exactly?

Clothing is just a costume of sorts, but with practical uses in that it keeps us warm in cold weather.

No one's denying that. A woman wearing guys' clothes isn't a guy. And a man dressed up in a skirt and make up isn't a woman. Transvestites are men/women who dress up as a different sex. Transgendered people aren't just drag queens

[odeon]

*smiles and nods at Hadron* Unless you're willing to present actual evidence to back up your claims I think we're done.

I don't need to, your the one claiming something exists without any evidence whatsoever.

You're*
I've presented plenty of evidence. Evidence that has citations, and further reading with verifiable research backing it up. You've presented... Well just your word.
And I'm not the only one claiming. You are also.

Present me a peer-reviewed legitimate scientific research article and then we might have something to discuss. Oh I forget, they don't exist, I wonder why

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Sexual_Differentiation_of_the_Human_Brain__Relevance_for_Gender_Identity,_Transsexualism_and_Sexual_Orientation.pdf

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/131/12/3132

http://www.gendermedicine.com/Uploads/assets/swaab.pdf



Also the ICD-10 is a peer reviewed medical and psychological diagnostic manual. And contains the following criteria:

F64       Gender identity disorders
F64.0       Transsexualism
      A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex.
F64.1       Dual-role transvestism
      The wearing of clothes of the opposite sex for part of the individual's existence in order to enjoy the temporary experience of membership of the opposite sex, but without any desire for a more permanent sex change or associated surgical reassignment, and without sexual excitement accompanying the cross-dressing.
      Gender identity disorder of adolescence or adulthood, nontranssexual type
      Excludes:    fetishistic transvestism ( F65.1 )
F64.2       Gender identity disorder of childhood
      A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.-.
      Excludes:    egodystonic sexual orientation ( F66.1 )
sexual maturation disorder ( F66.0 )
F64.8       Other gender identity disorders
F64.9       Gender identity disorder, unspecified
      Gender-role disorder NOS

      
      
The DSM-IV the american psychological diagnostic manual contains this:

Diagnostic Criteria for Gender Identity Disorder

    * A. A strong persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In children, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of the following:
         1. Repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex.
         2. In boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; In girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing.
         3. Strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex.
         4. Intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex.
         5. Strong preference for playmates of the other sex.

      In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as a stated desire to be the other sex, frequent passing as the other sex, desire to live or be treated as the other sex, or the conviction that he or she has the typical feelings and reactions of the other sex.
    * B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.

      In children, the disturbance is manifested by any of the following:
      In boys, assertion that his penis or testes are disgusting or will disappear or assertion that it would be better not to have a penis, or aversion toward rough-and-tumble play and rejection of male stereotypical toys, games, and activities.
      In girls, rejection of urinating in a sitting position, assertion that she has or will grow a penis, or assertion that she does not want to grow breasts or menstruate, or marked aversion toward normative feminine clothing.

      In adolescents and adults, the disturbance is manifested by symptoms such as preoccupation with getting rid of primary and secondary sex characteristics (e.g., request for hormones, surgery, or other procedures to physically alter sexual characteristics to simulate the other sex) or belief that he or she was born the wrong sex.
    * C. The disturbance is not concurrent with physical intersex condition.
    * D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

      Code based on current age:
    * 302.6 Gender Identity Disorder in Children
    * 302.85 Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents or Adults

      Specify if (for sexually mature individuals):
    * Sexually Attracted to Males
    * Sexually Attracted to Females
    * Sexually Attracted to Both
    * Sexually Attracted to Neither

   

Hadron wanted peer-reviewed scientific material. He got it.

It's interesting that these things are labelled as "disorders", though, isn't it?

[El]

Hadron wanted peer-reviewed scientific material. He got it.

It's interesting that these things are labelled as "disorders", though, isn't it?

Homosexuality itself was listed as a disorder in the DSM a couple of revisions ago.  Frankly you can still sneak it in under sexual disorder NOS under the third example (basically, being homosexual and not feeling OK about it).

[driftingblizzard]

Everyone is acting in poor taste here the sooner its over the better

You are right parts, I read your post, then looked down.  I was on page 1 and there are 23!   I must read on!

[Alex179]

There are biological men that aren't even men in a sense that they don't know what being a man is about.    

Enlighten us then. What is being a man all about exactly?

Clothing is just a costume of sorts, but with practical uses in that it keeps us warm in cold weather.

No one's denying that. A woman wearing guys' clothes isn't a guy. And a man dressed up in a skirt and make up isn't a woman. Transvestites are men/women who dress up as a different sex. Transgendered people aren't just drag queens

They are irresponsible and mature.   I am really immature myself, so I would know where I am as far as maturation goes.   At least I can support myself somewhat haha.    Being a man is more than just getting a woman pregnant for example.  Plenty of guys do that and then shirk the responsibility entirely.

Transgendered people want to be the opposite sex, but they start it before puberty.   They want to be almost everything that goes along with the stereotypical roles assigned to the opposite sex.   Stereotypes that have been reinforced for thousands of years, they reject and go against.   I know what a transgendered person is.    They do more than just cross dress.   A transsexual goes a lot further when they get surgery and start taking hormones.     Drag queens can be total part timers, it is a fetish of sorts or hobby in a way for some.

[GalileoAce]

It's interesting that these things are labelled as "disorders", though, isn't it?

A disorder is anything (not literally anything) that causes a person discomfort in their life. Homosexuality doesn't generally cause people discomfort in life and it's beginning to become accepted in society. Gender Identity Disorder does cause discomfort and requires treatment of some sort (even just psycho-therapy), thus it is a disorder.

Transgendered people want to be the opposite sex, but they start it before puberty.   They want to be almost everything that goes along with the stereotypical roles assigned to the opposite sex.   Stereotypes that have been reinforced for thousands of years, they reject and go against.   I know what a transgendered person is.    They do more than just cross dress.   A transsexual goes a lot further when they get surgery and start taking hormones.     Drag queens can be total part timers, it is a fetish of sorts or hobby in a way for some.

Wrong.

[Adam]

They are irresponsible and mature.   I am really immature myself, so I would know where I am as far as maturation goes.   At least I can support myself somewhat haha.    Being a man is more than just getting a woman pregnant for example.  Plenty of guys do that and then shirk the responsibility entirely.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Not bothering with your kid is about being an asshole, not being a man.

Transgendered people want to be the opposite sex, but they start it before puberty.   

Start what before puberty?

They want to be almost everything that goes along with the stereotypical roles assigned to the opposite sex.   Stereotypes that have been reinforced for thousands of years, they reject and go against.   I know what a transgendered person is.    They do more than just cross dress.   A transsexual goes a lot further when they get surgery and start taking hormones.     Drag queens can be total part timers, it is a fetish of sorts or hobby in a way for some.

You say you know what a transgendered person is, but then you prove that you don't by the comments you make in the very same post. I think I've already said myself that I am more androgynous personality-wise than pretty much anyone else I know. I don't in any way want to be your typical manly man, and plenty of MTF are tomboyish.

[renaeden]

I know an MTF trans that barely bothers with makeup or wearing fashionable clothes or any of that.

That is probably why one of our neighbours mistook her for a guy. Twice.

Mistook? Now I'm confused 

It should be the other way around, but we are being politically correct to the trans community.   Ignoring the fact that the person is really a man, and wants to be "mistook" for a woman.

Hard to explain. The person I know has a female's name and dresses in girls' shirts. GA invites this person to stay at our house overnight sometimes which means that our neighbour has seen this person a number of times and has referred to them as "that young man" twice.

[Alex179]

Soph, what I posted was closer to the diagnosis in what GA posted as far as transgendered goes.

Gender identity disorder of childhood
      A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient.

[GalileoAce]

Soph, what I posted was closer to the diagnosis in what GA posted as far as transgendered goes.

Gender identity disorder of childhood
      A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behaviour in boys is not sufficient.

The criteria for children is different to adults.

[Al Swearegen]

There are biological men that aren't even men in a sense that they don't know what being a man is about.    

Enlighten us then. What is being a man all about exactly?

That Soph is something that you will have to discover for yourself but it doesn't come with a set of ready instruction or definitions. It may mean understanding what things you are raise and culture to accept as part of your socialisation. Some will be beneficial and some not. To drop them all and to accept other cultural and social more and values as your own is part of the deal. No pick and choosing. You likely will get there in time if you care to do so.

[Blasted]

Hahahahaha wtf

[Adam]

I don't know either. This little gnome-like man seems to be talking, but I can't work out what it is he's saying.   

Maybe he's saying he wishes he didn't have a receding hairline. Maybe he's saying he wishes he had a life. Who knows, who cares? Not me