INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Teejay on April 07, 2008, 12:55:53 AM
-
If any of you Aussies have kept up with the news as of late, a father-daughter incestuous couple have come out about their relationship on National TV no less.
Incest couple 'had another child'
April 7, 2008 - 12:48PM
Advertisement
A father and daughter, who have a baby girl together, had another child who died a few days after birth from a congenital heart disease, court documents show.
John Earnest Deaves and his daughter Jennifer Anne Deaves are at the centre of an incest scandal in South Australia over their seven-year relationship.
The pair revealed their relationship on the Nine Network's 60 Minutes program last night, saying they were just asking for some respect and understanding.
In March this year, they were placed on three-year good behaviour bonds after pleading guilty to two counts of incest.
District Court sentencing judge Steven Millsteed said the first count of incest was based on an act of sexual intercourse which resulted in the birth of the couple's first child.
The second count of incest related to an act of sexual intercourse which resulted in the birth of their second child in May last year.
"The first child was born in 2001 but died a few days after birth due to a congenital heart disease," Judge Millsteed said.
The couple had started a relationship together after being reunited in 2000, almost 30 years after Mr Deaves separated from Jenny's mother.
Because of problems with her own marriage, Ms Deaves had gone to live with her father at Yongala, in South Australia.
Their physical relationship developed later that year and both ended their marriages and began living together.
"Each of you say that the other has provided care and affection that was missing in your marriage," Judge Millsteed said.
"You also say that although you are father and daughter, that you were virtually strangers when your relationship commenced and that the relationship was based on mutual love and respect."
The couple had their first child while living in Rockhampton, Queensland, before moving to Port Pirie, in South Australia.
After the birth of their second child they moved to Bordertown, near the Victorian border where the Department of Families and Communities became aware of their relationship and turned the matter over to police.
Judge Millsteed said that when contacted by police the Deaves made full admissions.
He said both Jenny and John Deaves told him that they accepted their sexual relationship must end but hoped they would be able to continue to support one another and the children.
But he said while the case was not typical he had to impose a sentence that impressed upon them that any resumption of their incestuous relationship was unacceptable.
"The offence of incest exists not merely to protect children from sexual abuse," Judge Millsteed said.
"In my view, other relevant factors include the need to prevent the high risk of congenital defects in children born of incestuous relationships and to prevent children suffering psychological harm and social stigmatisation." Revealing their relationship on the Nine Network last night, the Deaves said they were just asking for some respect and understanding.
Mr Deaves admitted that he "initially" thought having sex with his daughter was wrong.
"Emotions take over, as people no doubt realise. There are times during your life where emotions do rule the heart, it rules the head," he said.
"I knew it was illegal. Of course, I knew it was illegal but you know, so what."
-
I don't care about adult consensual incestuous relationships, but they shouldn't be having kids together ffs
-
Inbreeding has advantages.
-
Like what, deformities?
-
No. Just look at the reasons animal breeders use it
as a tool. So long as you're willing to discard the
weak, it can speed selection.
-
Getting someone pregnant, fully aware that there's a massive chance the poor kid will be fucked up and die very young, is just evil.
-
So, people with AS shouldn't spawn?
Didn't someone get run out of here
for that idea?
-
how is AS the same?
-
Probably a greater chance of producing
someone who will be a burden on society.
-
I don't care about adult consensual incestuous relationships, but they shouldn't be having kids together ffs
What's your objection to them having kids? First-generation incestuous couples only have an additional risk of congenital defects of a few percent above baseline, while many couples are permitted to have children despite knowing they have a 25% or greater chance of serious defects, and the social stigma argument doesn't hold water in light of gay couples being allowed to have children.
-
Exactly.
-
It's not the social stigma, it's the defects.
I don't think anyone who's got a high risk of having kids with serious illnesses etc should have them, if it's going to make the child suffer
Probably a greater chance of producing
someone who will be a burden on society.
Not the same as a child in pain and dying within a few weeks/years
-
I don't see the correlation between gay people having kids and father and daughter producing deformed babies.
-
It's not the social stigma, it's the defects.
I don't think anyone who's got a high risk of having kids with serious illnesses etc should have them, if it's going to make the child suffer
Read his whole statement.
Probably a greater chance of producing
someone who will be a burden on society.
Not the same as a child in pain and dying within a few weeks/years
Ah yes, much better that they have MS,
and suffer a lifetime?
-
I don't see the correlation between gay people having kids and father and daughter producing deformed babies.
THINK. He's pointing out the social stigma as one of the possible
issues. He already handled the physical, in the first sentence.
No wonder it's so fucking hard to show people difficult things,
when they can't even see the absolutely trivial.
-
It's not the social stigma, it's the defects.
I don't think anyone who's got a high risk of having kids with serious illnesses etc should have them, if it's going to make the child suffer
Read his whole statement.
i did
which bit are you referring to?
Probably a greater chance of producing
someone who will be a burden on society.
Not the same as a child in pain and dying within a few weeks/years
Ah yes, much better that they have MS,
and suffer a lifetime?
no
what i'm saying is, having AS is completely different
-
okay, so AS was a poor choice, but
one calculated to show more empathy
around here. Still, the government doesn't
forcibly sterilize those with serious genetic
defects. AND, if they did, we'd be next on the
list.
-
i don't see why
like i said, AS is entirely different
if i had my own genetic offspring, there'd be a chance they had AS. but so? would that be as bad as knowingly having a kid who would be in physical pain for years?
and i don't think ANYONE should have kids, if there's a higher chance those kids will be in pain
-
Yeah I see it but social stigma is bs. Kids get picked on for anything these days, having older parents, having fat parents, having weird parents etc.
Also, a risk of deformity gets higher, the closer the people are in the gene pool. I mean loads of cousins do get married and their babies turn out alright. They are a father and daughter though, surely they must have had enough sense to see that something must be wrong when they had the first baby and it died? Why the fuck would they continue trying to have kids? That's what I'm getting at.
-
i don't see why
like i said, AS is entirely different
if i had my own genetic offspring, there'd be a chance they had AS. but so? would that be as bad as knowingly having a kid who would be in physical pain for years?
and i don't think ANYONE should have kids, if there's a higher chance those kids will be in pain
There's always a higher chance, if they have them,
than if they don't.
And, if you meant otherwise, try pushing for genetic screening
before birth - I think you'll find that most of those who are
disgusted by this, will be equally disturbed by that idea.
Thoughts of hitler and all.
-
Yeah I see it but social stigma is bs. Kids get picked on for anything these days, having older parents, having fat parents, having weird parents etc.
Yes. So it's irrelevant in the case of incest.
Also, a risk of deformity gets higher, the closer the people are in the gene pool. I mean loads of cousins do get married and their babies turn out alright. They are a father and daughter though, surely they must have had enough sense to see that something must be wrong when they had the first baby and it died? Why the fuck would they continue trying to have kids? That's what I'm getting at.
Sure, but I've known a couple with MS who
did just that. And some people would talk about
it, but it sure the hell isn't against the law.
-
aborting a fetus because it might have X, Y or Z, is different to choosing not to get pregnant in the first place.
thoughts of hitler is stupid. i want to prevent kids suffering because their parents were idiotic. i don't want to kill people i don't like
-
Yeah I see it but social stigma is bs. Kids get picked on for anything these days, having older parents, having fat parents, having weird parents etc.
Also, a risk of deformity gets higher, the closer the people are in the gene pool. I mean loads of cousins do get married and their babies turn out alright. They are a father and daughter though, surely they must have had enough sense to see that something must be wrong when they had the first baby and it died? Why the fuck would they continue trying to have kids? That's what I'm getting at.
Lots of people lose a kid; they were probably just unfortunate, and don't have a significantly greater risk of defective children than most couples.
Swedish psychiatrist Dr. Carl Olstrom has heavy experience in the
study of fetal deformities resulting from incest, and says that "There is
no evidence to support the assumption that children resulting from
incestuous relationships [with a father or mother] run a greater risk of
being malformed than other children."
Carl Henry Olstrom, M.D. Medical World News , February 4, 1967.
Also, if you're going to prohibit relationships based on the likelihood of resultant children having genetic problems, you'd need to prohibit couples in which one or both partners carry genes for Huntington's disease or hereditary cancer syndromes, among dozens of other serious hereditary conditions. As has been stated before, if that were the case, we'd be near the top of the list.
-
I don't care about adult consensual incestuous relationships, but they shouldn't be having kids together ffs
:agreed:
-
aborting a fetus because it might have X, Y or Z, is different to choosing not to get pregnant in the first place.
thoughts of hitler is stupid. i want to prevent kids suffering because their parents were idiotic. i don't want to kill people i don't like
Uhm...no. Nazi germany was involved in eugenics programs
such as you seem to advocate. One wonders just how much
WWII era history you paid attention to.
-
aborting a fetus because it might have X, Y or Z, is different to choosing not to get pregnant in the first place.
thoughts of hitler is stupid. i want to prevent kids suffering because their parents were idiotic. i don't want to kill people i don't like
Uhm...no. Nazi germany was involved in eugenics programs
such as you seem to advocate. One wonders just how much
WWII era history you paid attention to.
::)
I know enough about the eugenics programs thanks.
the point i was making, was that comparisons to hitler are stupid because the reasons i have these views are due to not wanting kids to be in pain.... entirely different
-
and my degree focuses mostly on WWII, so yes, I pay attention to it
-
I don't see the correlation between gay people having kids and father and daughter producing deformed babies.
From the article:
"In my view, other relevant factors include the need to prevent the high risk of congenital defects in children born of incestuous relationships and to prevent children suffering psychological harm and social stigmatisation."
Children of gay people suffer social stigmatisation and children of people with hereditary conditions suffer a greater risk of congenital defects, yet both are permitted. This reduces it to a morality law, serving no purpose but to ban what some people find icky or what some book in some religion says some god doesn't like.
-
aborting a fetus because it might have X, Y or Z, is different to choosing not to get pregnant in the first place.
thoughts of hitler is stupid. i want to prevent kids suffering because their parents were idiotic. i don't want to kill people i don't like
Uhm...no. Nazi germany was involved in eugenics programs
such as you seem to advocate. One wonders just how much
WWII era history you paid attention to.
::)
I know enough about the eugenics programs thanks.
the point i was making, was that comparisons to hitler are stupid because the reasons i have these views are due to not wanting kids to be in pain.... entirely different
Ah, so some intention makes all the difference?
Soon you'll be advocating torture, if it's
for a good cause.
and my degree focuses mostly on WWII, so yes, I pay attention to it
Which is why your apparent ignorance of the connection shocked me.
And deserved that slap
-
i don't think incest should be illegal, so long as they are consenting adults
my views have nothing to do with it being icky. and i'm not religious
-
aborting a fetus because it might have X, Y or Z, is different to choosing not to get pregnant in the first place.
thoughts of hitler is stupid. i want to prevent kids suffering because their parents were idiotic. i don't want to kill people i don't like
Uhm...no. Nazi germany was involved in eugenics programs
such as you seem to advocate. One wonders just how much
WWII era history you paid attention to.
::)
I know enough about the eugenics programs thanks.
the point i was making, was that comparisons to hitler are stupid because the reasons i have these views are due to not wanting kids to be in pain.... entirely different
Ah, so some intention makes all the difference?
Soon you'll be advocating torture, if it's
for a good cause.
and my degree focuses mostly on WWII, so yes, I pay attention to it
Which is why your apparent ignorance of the connection shocked me.
And deserved that slap
i'm not ignorant
so i didn't deserve any "slap"
what i'm saying, is these people are fucked up to be having kids when they knows there's a greater chance of defects. i'm not saying we should be sterilising people for whatever reason. that's why i said it was a shit comparison.
-
the couple had a healthy baby first and the second died.
getting picked on for gay parents is not the same thing as getting picked on for having a sister-mother and dad-grandad. i would rather have gay parents.
eugenics freaks me out more than the thought of having said sister-mother and dad-grandad as parents.
-
yuck I could care less about it all just don't want to hear it :zombiefuck:
-
lol. :toporly:
-
aborting a fetus because it might have X, Y or Z, is different to choosing not to get pregnant in the first place.
thoughts of hitler is stupid. i want to prevent kids suffering because their parents were idiotic. i don't want to kill people i don't like
Uhm...no. Nazi germany was involved in eugenics programs
such as you seem to advocate. One wonders just how much
WWII era history you paid attention to.
::)
I know enough about the eugenics programs thanks.
the point i was making, was that comparisons to hitler are stupid because the reasons i have these views are due to not wanting kids to be in pain.... entirely different
Ah, so some intention makes all the difference?
Soon you'll be advocating torture, if it's
for a good cause.
and my degree focuses mostly on WWII, so yes, I pay attention to it
Which is why your apparent ignorance of the connection shocked me.
And deserved that slap
i'm not ignorant
so i didn't deserve any "slap"
what i'm saying, is these people are fucked up to be having kids when they knows there's a greater chance of defects. i'm not saying we should be sterilising people for whatever reason. that's why i said it was a shit comparison.
'apparent' - do you know what that word means?
And, you're adding to it by suggesting that the eugenics programs
had no reason behind them. Indeed, one could well argue that the
scientific concepts behind them were far more likely to benefit than
some random matings.
-
All I can say is it's wrong to bring a child into it.
-
yes i know what the word means
that reply was in response to your "and deserved that slap" comment
-
Ah. I apologize for the period, instead of a semi-colon
then. I didn't guess that would cause you such distress.
-
i'm not distressed by it
-
Good. Then prepare for the spanking.
-
All I can say is it's wrong to bring a child into it.
Is it wrong to bring a child into a bum-loving gay couple?
-
Depends on the couple
Not all gay couple have anal sex though, and I don't think that has anything to do with their ability to raise a child
-
All I can say is it's wrong to bring a child into it.
Is it wrong to bring a child into a bum-loving gay couple?
Gays aren't as "taboo" as incest. I'm sure the child would get less shit at school if it had gay parents.
-
exactly.
-
Many straight couples with kids have anal sex. It's not just a thing reserved for the gays.
-
All I can say is it's against society's standards to bring a child into it.
Better.
-
All I can say is it's wrong to bring a child into it.
Is it wrong to bring a child into a bum-loving gay couple?
Gays aren't as "taboo" as incest. I'm sure the child would get less shit at school if it had gay parents.
So people should only have kids if those kids will fit in at school? Once upon a time, gays were very much taboo, and a kid with gay parents could count on a tough childhood. Does that mean it used to be wrong for gays to have kids, but it's ok now?
Depends on the couple
Not all gay couple have anal sex though, and I don't think that has anything to do with their ability to raise a child
I agree, it doesn't have anything to do with their ability to raise a child, and since bumfucking parents are as much grounds for teasing as incestuous parents, incest has no more effect on it than bumfucking.
Many straight couples with kids have anal sex. It's not just a thing reserved for the gays.
So, do you think anal sex makes people bad parents? After all, if word got out, the kids might get teased about it and burdened with the social stigma.
-
the couple had a healthy baby first and the second died.
No, their first child died and their second child lived.
District Court sentencing judge Steven Millsteed said the first count of incest was based on an act of sexual intercourse which resulted in the birth of the couple's first child.
The second count of incest related to an act of sexual intercourse which resulted in the birth of their second child in May last year.
"The first child was born in 2001 but died a few days after birth due to a congenital heart disease," Judge Millsteed said.
Peter said: Dr. Carl Olstrom, a Swedish psychiatrist experienced in the study of fetal deformity resulting from incest, reports: "There is no evidence to support the assumption that children resulting from incestuous relationships run a greater risk of being malformed than other children."
However, the rest of the quote said: Other, smaller studies have shown serious birth defects in up to one fourth of all children who were conceived through bloodline incest, an incidence that is about fifteen times the expected normal frequency.
-
All I can say is it's wrong to bring a child into it.
Is it wrong to bring a child into a bum-loving gay couple?
Gays aren't as "taboo" as incest. I'm sure the child would get less shit at school if it had gay parents.
So people should only have kids if those kids will fit in at school? Once upon a time, gays were very much taboo, and a kid with gay parents could count on a tough childhood. Does that mean it used to be wrong for gays to have kids, but it's ok now?
This is likely to be exactly right. Morality seems largely a matter
of societal standards (the rest being instinct). I don't know about the
"fitting in" part, but it's clearly society's way of telling you that you
aren't moral. Of course, certain principles can conflict.
I agree, it doesn't have anything to do with their ability to raise a child, and since bumfucking parents are as much grounds for teasing as incestuous parents, incest has no more effect on it than bumfucking.
Most kids don't know whose parents are ass fucking.
When a kid introduces his mom, Steve, that's pretty apparent.
-
Peter said: Dr. Carl Olstrom, a Swedish psychiatrist experienced in the study of fetal deformity resulting from incest, reports: "There is no evidence to support the assumption that children resulting from incestuous relationships run a greater risk of being malformed than other children."
However, the rest of the quote said: Other, smaller studies have shown serious birth defects in up to one fourth of all children who were conceived through bloodline incest, an incidence that is about fifteen times the expected normal frequency.
Which is just normal scientific hedging. ::)
It would be dishonest to not report that there were
contradictory studies.
-
When a kid introduces his mom, Steve, that's pretty apparent.
Why would the kid have a mom called Steve?
-
When a kid introduces his mom, Steve, that's pretty apparent.
Why would the kid have a mom called Steve?
Short for steven.
-
There aren't many women called Steven
-
Gee, is something dawning? :zoinks:
-
Gee, is something dawning? :zoinks:
So then he wouldn't have a mom called Steve ::)
-
All I can say is it's against society's standards to bring a child into it.
Better.
Incest is a taboo in practically every society in human history, Ancient Egypt is the only society I know of which did not have incest as a taboo.
Have a look at the book of Leviticus in old testament there is two verses (Leviticus 18:22) and (Leviticus 20:13) banning homosexual relations between men, while there are a lot more banning various forms of incest.
-
Gee, is something dawning? :zoinks:
So then he wouldn't have a mom called Steve ::)
Taking lessons in being dense?
-
All I can say is it's against society's standards to bring a child into it.
Better.
Incest is a taboo in practically every society in human history, Ancient Egypt is the only society I know of which did not have incest as a taboo.
Depends on the level. Parents and children, definitely.
Brother and sister, usually. And there are good reasons,
in terms of viability of the species. Such inbreeding is terrible,
as a habit. Individual cases don't much matter, but if it's the
norm, it would lead to rapid loss of traits from the gene pool.
-
Gee, is something dawning? :zoinks:
So then he wouldn't have a mom called Steve ::)
Taking lessons in being dense?
No. YOU are the one being dense. I know exactly what you're saying.
But "Steve" wouldn't be the kid's mom
He'd have 2 dads
-
maybe he could be called Stevette.
-
Have a look at the book of Leviticus in old testament there is two verses (Leviticus 18:22) and (Leviticus 20:13) banning homosexual relations between men, while there are a lot more banning various forms of incest.
Still, the bible NEVER condones homosexual relations,
whilst it does indicate a couple of cases of incest, without
any rebuke (Lot, for example).
-
He'd be a man though
Gay parents don't have to be "the mom and the dad"
So he wouldn't be introducing his mom steve... he'd be introducing his other dad, steve
-
Gee, is something dawning? :zoinks:
So then he wouldn't have a mom called Steve ::)
Taking lessons in being dense?
No. YOU are the one being dense. I know exactly what you're saying.
But "Steve" wouldn't be the kid's mom
He'd have 2 dads
Pretty ridiculous stance from someone who accepts
the redefinition of gender. I think your case would be
stronger, had I said mother, but mom is a slang term
anyhow.
Anyhow, my point stands, regardless of the semantics behind
the word 'mom'.
-
Gee, is something dawning? :zoinks:
So then he wouldn't have a mom called Steve ::)
Taking lessons in being dense?
No. YOU are the one being dense. I know exactly what you're saying.
But "Steve" wouldn't be the kid's mom
He'd have 2 dads
Pretty ridiculous stance from someone who accepts
the redefinition of gender. I think your case would be
stronger, had I said mother, but mom is a slang term
anyhow.
Anyhow, my point stands, regardless of the semantics behind
the word 'mom'.
Why is it a ridiculous stance?
You're calling someone a mom, just because the couple are gay
Mom and mother mean prettty much the same thing to me
-
He'd be a man though
Gay parents don't have to be "the mom and the dad"
So he wouldn't be introducing his mom steve... he'd be introducing his other dad, steve
How the fuck do you know? Yeah, they don't HAVE to
be anything. It could be "my dad, and his roomate"
or hell, his fuckbuddy. It doesn't make much difference
though - it's either hidden (as incest likely would be)
or going to cause some difficulty.
And, if we all got used to incest as more 'normal' it
would be the same.
-
Why is it a ridiculous stance?
If you can redefine words to suit your needs,
I can do so, as well. The meaning was clear.
You're calling someone a mom, just because the couple are gay
Mom and mother mean prettty much the same thing to me
No. I'm looking at it as a role, rather than as
a biological mother. By your definition, one
couldn't have an adopted mother, I think.
Or, is the role of 'mother' so gender specific
that it can't be defined according to the
tastes of the people involved? THAT would
be hypocrisy.
-
but i loike stevette, mayte. :zombiefuck:
-
Why is it a ridiculous stance?
If you can redefine words to suit your needs,
I can do so, as well. The meaning was clear.
You're calling someone a mom, just because the couple are gay
Mom and mother mean prettty much the same thing to me
No. I'm looking at it as a role, rather than as
a biological mother. By your definition, one
couldn't have an adopted mother, I think.
Or, is the role of 'mother' so gender specific
that it can't be defined according to the
tastes of the people involved? THAT would
be hypocrisy.
I was responding to you implying that there needed to be a "mom" and a "dad"
How would YOU know that they'd be introducing them as their mom?
It's more likely they'd be introducing them as their dad, as not many men are "moms"
And since when did I redefine words to suit my needs?
-
And of course someone can have an adopted mother. I don't think biology has anything to do with it
-
Why is it a ridiculous stance?
If you can redefine words to suit your needs,
I can do so, as well. The meaning was clear.
You're calling someone a mom, just because the couple are gay
Mom and mother mean prettty much the same thing to me
No. I'm looking at it as a role, rather than as
a biological mother. By your definition, one
couldn't have an adopted mother, I think.
Or, is the role of 'mother' so gender specific
that it can't be defined according to the
tastes of the people involved? THAT would
be hypocrisy.
I was responding to you implying that there needed to be a "mom" and a "dad"
How would YOU know that they'd be introducing them as their mom?
It's more likely they'd be introducing them as their dad, as not many men are "moms"
I didn't say there needed to be.
But, the difficulty, no matter how
it's handled, is obvious. I went for
the most humorous example, in order
to make my point clear.
You should learn humor. Not as a crutch in
fighting, but to present some issues. It's useful.
And since when did I redefine words to suit my needs?
Not just you. But, as I've contended, 'gender' has been redefined.
-
You should learn humor. Not as a crutch in
fighting, but to present some issues. It's useful.
I have my own sense of humour, thanks
I don't particularly like yours, most of the time
Not just you. But, as I've contended, 'gender' has been redefined.
In what way have I redefined anything for my own needs?
-
And of course someone can have an adopted mother. I don't think biology has anything to do with it
IF biology has nothing to do with it,
then how does gender (by it's original
meaning) - or if you prefer to misuse
the word, sex?
-
And of course someone can have an adopted mother. I don't think biology has anything to do with it
IF biology has nothing to do with it,
then how does gender (by it's original
meaning) - or if you prefer to misuse
the word, sex?
I don't misuse the word gender
Sex has nothing to do with it
-
You should learn humor. Not as a crutch in
fighting, but to present some issues. It's useful.
I have my own sense of humour, thanks
I don't particularly like yours, most of the time
Since such is pretty standard, you ought to
learn to understand it, even if not appreciate.
Not just you. But, as I've contended, 'gender' has been redefined.
In what way have I redefined anything for my own needs?
You accepted this travesty. It's no better than calling the Near East
the Middle East.
-
what about Mister Mom!? :zombiefuck:
-
And of course someone can have an adopted mother. I don't think biology has anything to do with it
IF biology has nothing to do with it,
then how does gender (by it's original
meaning) - or if you prefer to misuse
the word, sex?
I don't misuse the word gender
Sex has nothing to do with it
So, stop objecting to a mom named steve,
who happens to be male.
-
what about Mister Mom!? :zombiefuck:
Or worse, Mr. Mister.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWyeVfuolT4&feature=related
-
You should learn humor. Not as a crutch in
fighting, but to present some issues. It's useful.
I have my own sense of humour, thanks
I don't particularly like yours, most of the time
Since such is pretty standard, you ought to
learn to understand it, even if not appreciate.
Not just you. But, as I've contended, 'gender' has been redefined.
In what way have I redefined anything for my own needs?
You accepted this travesty. It's no better than calling the Near East
the Middle East.
I did understand it was humour. The same way I understood your "humour" in the "pregnant man" thread, when you asked about pronouns.
Gender is not sex. They are both two different things.
-
And of course someone can have an adopted mother. I don't think biology has anything to do with it
IF biology has nothing to do with it,
then how does gender (by it's original
meaning) - or if you prefer to misuse
the word, sex?
I don't misuse the word gender
Sex has nothing to do with it
So, stop objecting to a mom named steve,
who happens to be male.
I don';t care, if Steve identifies as a woman
It was your suggestion that he would be "the mom" just because the other was male too, that I was responding to
-
Gender is not sex. They are both two different things.
Indeed. Gender is the seperation BASED upon sex.
-
And of course someone can have an adopted mother. I don't think biology has anything to do with it
IF biology has nothing to do with it,
then how does gender (by it's original
meaning) - or if you prefer to misuse
the word, sex?
I don't misuse the word gender
Sex has nothing to do with it
So, stop objecting to a mom named steve,
who happens to be male.
I don';t care, if Steve identifies as a woman
It was your suggestion that he would be "the mom" just because the other was male too, that I was responding to
I made no such suggestion. Merely a quip about introducing mom
as steve. You need to lighten up.
-
the couple had a healthy baby first and the second died.
No, their first child died and their second child lived.
District Court sentencing judge Steven Millsteed said the first count of incest was based on an act of sexual intercourse which resulted in the birth of the couple's first child.
The second count of incest related to an act of sexual intercourse which resulted in the birth of their second child in May last year.
"The first child was born in 2001 but died a few days after birth due to a congenital heart disease," Judge Millsteed said.
Peter said: Dr. Carl Olstrom, a Swedish psychiatrist experienced in the study of fetal deformity resulting from incest, reports: "There is no evidence to support the assumption that children resulting from incestuous relationships run a greater risk of being malformed than other children."
However, the rest of the quote said: Other, smaller studies have shown serious birth defects in up to one fourth of all children who were conceived through bloodline incest, an incidence that is about fifteen times the expected normal frequency.
Small studies are subject to statistical inaccuracies due to their small sample size, so larger studies generally supplant them. Paranormal phenomena often show up on small studies but vanish in larger studies for this reason, and also because larger studies tend to be more rigorously controlled than smaller ones.
-
Gender is not sex. They are both two different things.
Indeed. Gender is the seperation BASED upon sex.
Usually
Individually, it is not always based upon sex
-
Gender is not sex. They are both two different things.
Indeed. Gender is the seperation BASED upon sex.
Usually
Individually, it is not always based upon sex
A redefinition. One for which there is no clear evidence.
There could be societal, rather than physiological causes
for such, and then they would not qualify.
-
There's no clear evidence that gender is a social construct?
-
I agree though. I hate the way they try to heterosexualise gay couples, saying there should be a "mum" and a "dad". For example with lesbians, the butch with the girly one.
Also I think this discussion is quite pointless. Each one has their own beliefs that they are most unlikly to budge from. Same as talking to a bunch of homophobes. Not that I'm comparing any of you to them.
-
There's no clear evidence that gender is a social construct?
Uhm...THAT would be a complete redefinition.
Exactly why I object.
-
There's no clear evidence that gender is a social construct?
Uhm...THAT would be a complete redefinition.
Exactly why I object.
I've studied this at university
Gender IS a social construct, whether you like it or not
-
I agree though. I hate the way they try to heterosexualise gay couples, saying there should be a "mum" and a "dad". For example with lesbians, the butch with the girly one.
I prefer to avoid butch. Usually.
Biker dykers ain't my style.
Also I think this discussion is quite pointless. Each one has their own beliefs that they are most unlikly to budge from. Same as talking to a bunch of homophobes. Not that I'm comparing any of you to them.
Pretty much the case with any discussion though. But, some
might be less convicted in their opinions, and swayed by the
debate.
-
You won't be getting any lesbians anyway
-
There's no clear evidence that gender is a social construct?
Uhm...THAT would be a complete redefinition.
Exactly why I object.
I've studied this at university
Gender IS a social construct, whether you like it or not
1. Ah, and that makes you an expert in etymology?
2. The point is this, JUST those whom you've studied it
from are the ones who have redefined the word. There are
people who teach and study eubonics as a language. Doesn't
make it so. There are probably people who study the 'Mideast'
when it's really the Near East.
-
You won't be getting any lesbians anyway
probably not. Never know though.
I've tended to appeal.
-
You appeal to my bi side :angel:
There's no clear evidence that gender is a social construct?
Uhm...THAT would be a complete redefinition.
Exactly why I object.
I've studied this at university
Gender IS a social construct, whether you like it or not
1. Ah, and that makes you an expert in etymology?
2. The point is this, JUST those whom you've studied it
from are the ones who have redefined the word. There are
people who teach and study eubonics as a language. Doesn't
make it so. There are probably people who study the 'Mideast'
when it's really the Near East.
But what makes you so sure that YOU are right?
-
I've studied this at university
Gender IS a social construct, whether you like it or not
Do not automatically believe in academic theories like that.
In our brains there is wiring if you call that that determines if we identify ourselves as male or female and even determines our behavior to an extent. This wiring matches a person's biological sex, however in transgender people the wiring is of the opposite sex than biological one. While a transsexual woman for example is biologically male, mentally she is female.
-
You appeal to my bi side :angel:
:anal: ?
But what makes you so sure that YOU are right?
Fair question, and not much, except having been
around when it didn't mean what soph claims. When
there were arguments that sex was the wrong thing to
ask on forms, because the division is gender.
-
In our brains there is wiring if you call that that determines if we identify ourselves as male or female and even determines our behavior to an extent. This wiring matches a person's biological sex, however in transgender people the wiring is of the opposite sex than biological one. While a transsexual woman for example is biologically male, mentally she is female.
Is this 'wiring' proven? I've seen nothing to indicate
that it is. If so, I'd be more willing to accept that
gender need have nothing to do with sex.
-
There have been studies which have shown the brains of transsexual women (MTF) are more similar to those of biological females
-
Is this 'wiring' proven? I've seen nothing to indicate
that it is. If so, I'd be more willing to accept that
gender need have nothing to do with sex.
It is difficult to generalize typical male and female behaviors, but they are there because they were shaped by mating strategies. For instance males are much more likely to engage in risky behavior because that is linked to the male impulse to impregnate as many females as possible.
-
There have been studies which have shown the brains of transsexual women (MTF) are more similar to those of biological females
I'm aware of these. I don't believe that it's been accepted
as conclusive however. And, it's those who use the word as
a social construct whom I really oppose. That's not the meaning.
They should've come up with some new word.
It's like if I started calling dogs wolves. It just doesn't work.
-
You appeal to my bi side :angel:
:anal: ?
But what makes you so sure that YOU are right?
Fair question, and not much, except having been
around when it didn't mean what soph claims. When
there were arguments that sex was the wrong thing to
ask on forms, because the division is gender.
You know, I don't like anal :zoinks:
Arguments change over time, due to more research.
-
Is this 'wiring' proven? I've seen nothing to indicate
that it is. If so, I'd be more willing to accept that
gender need have nothing to do with sex.
It is difficult to generalize typical male and female behaviors, but they are there because they were shaped by mating strategies. For instance males are much more likely to engage in risky behavior because that is linked to the male impulse to impregnate as many females as possible.
Wow. As soon as you get into sexual selection, you enter a murky
ground between pure biology and something more ephemeral.
Though, it seems obvious that something is odd as to 'mating strategies' with
homosexual activity. :laugh:
Brings up an interesting idea.
-
You know, I don't like anal :zoinks:
How you gonna take me then? ???
Arguments change over time, due to more research.
Yeah, but this is a matter of the argument being made obsolete,
due to a redefinition of the word. Something which I don't think
should have happened.
-
Why does it matter to you that gender is now considered to be a social construct? what do you want it to be defined as?
-
All I can say is it's wrong to bring a child into it.
Is it wrong to bring a child into a bum-loving gay couple?
Gays aren't as "taboo" as incest. I'm sure the child would get less shit at school if it had gay parents.
So people should only have kids if those kids will fit in at school? Once upon a time, gays were very much taboo, and a kid with gay parents could count on a tough childhood. Does that mean it used to be wrong for gays to have kids, but it's ok now?
I have nothing against Gays and incest people having kids in a moral way. I just think it's unfair on the kid. Less so for gay couples though. Having a hard childhood myself makes me consider the childs feelings more than the issue "is it wrong for them to have kids".
-
I have nothing against Gays and incest people having kids in a moral way. I just think it's unfair on the kid. Less so for gay couples though. Having a hard childhood myself makes me consider the childs feelings more than the issue "is it wrong for them to have kids".
I agree. And think it's even more unfair for those who suffer
from depression to have children - for they are liable to suffer
their whole life
-
Why does it matter to you that gender is now considered to be a social construct? what do you want it to be defined as?
Because it conflicts with what is biological reality. Read up the story of David Reimer whom after a circumcision gone wrong, the doctors decided he should be raised as a girl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
-
YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK nah nah nah I'm not listening anymore
-
Why does it matter to you that gender is now considered to be a social construct? what do you want it to be defined as?
Because it conflicts with what is biological reality. Read up the story of David Reimer whom after a circumcision gone wrong, the doctors decided he should be raised as a girl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
I think that's so sad, what happened to him. I think that I saw his story on television as well.
-
they shouldn't need to be "raised as a girl" or "raised as a boy" anyway IMO. although i know no one will agree with me. they should be raised as individual kids, regardless of what gender or sex they are
-
they shouldn't need to be "raised as a girl" or "raised as a boy" anyway IMO. although i know no one will agree with me. they should be raised as individual kids, regardless of what gender or sex they are
I absolutely agree with you, Soph.
Sometimes, it's tough doing that, though.
Like with my daughter, I tried to have just as many "boy" toys for her when she was little as "girl" toys and I had as many gender neutral toys as possible.
How you dress kids can be a problem for some parents, because there are not many unisex choices for children older than babies.
I dress her as a girl but I try to take any preference she has into account.
For example, she tends to like comfortable clothes because of her sensory issues, so most of her clothes are cotton knit fabric.
She hates black and white striped things and bar codes, so she does not have any clothing like that.
-
they shouldn't need to be "raised as a girl" or "raised as a boy" anyway IMO. although i know no one will agree with me. they should be raised as individual kids, regardless of what gender or sex they are
I absolutely agree with you, Soph.
Sometimes, it's tough doing that, though.
Like with my daughter, I tried to have just as many "boy" toys for her when she was little as "girl" toys and I had as many gender neutral toys as possible.
How you dress kids can be a problem for some parents, because there are not many unisex choices for children older than babies.
I dress her as a girl but I try to take any preference she has into account.
For example, she tends to like comfortable clothes because of her sensory issues, so most of her clothes are cotton knit fabric.
She hates black and white striped things and bar codes, so she does not have any clothing like that.
yeah i understand the clothing and stuff.
i mean if i had a son, i wouldn't make him wear skirts and stuff :P
but i wouldn't treat a child one way, if i would have treated them differently had they been a different sex. it sounds obvious not to do that, but a lot of parents do it without realising, from what i've seen. they expect their daughters and sons to be different, and if they're not, they treat them as if they've done something wrong.
that just leads to insecurities and problems when they're older IMO.
-
Yes, but what if he actually wanted to wear skirts?
Some dads, especially, have a problem if their sons want to dress like a girl because they know how much teasing it will cause them to face.
-
yeah I would definitely worry about teasing
But I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, if they were older
If they were very young I don't know what I would do tbh, as I know it would cause a lot of problems for my brother (at school and stuff) if he wanted to wear skirts. Maybe i'd let them wear skirts at home and try and encourage them not to when they go out. but then why should a child have to be forced to act differently to another (otherwise the same - same age etc) child, based solely on his sex? it's not right. that's why it pisses me off. it's socially messed up
-
well i dont see what the big deal is, adam and eves children had to have fucked each other otherwise the majority of us wouldnt be here ;)
-
That is if you believe in Adam and Eve.
-
Well for that matter if you believe in them Eve was made out of Adams rib so it was the ultimate in incest he fucked himself :laugh:
-
Wouldn't that be masturbation? :laugh:
-
Yes god should have stuck him down for that
-
i would let my kids wear what they like.
-
i would let my kids wear what they like.
Even an open-assed gimp suit?
-
I can see the gay-incest double standard, but I think people forget that society is not constructed completely rationally.
-
i want gay brothers having sex on youtube. :zoinks:
-
i would let my kids wear what they like.
Even an open-assed gimp suit?
not that. :toporly:
-
i would let my kids wear what they like.
Even an open-assed gimp suit?
not that. :toporly:
Would you wear one for us :eyebrows:
-
Calandale was a :viking: douchebag
-
Whats that they say about glass houses and throwing stones, MLA?
-
Whats that they say about glass houses and throwing stones, MLA?
Junkie douchebags should be careful what they post, because they tend to repeat themselves a lot when the nod off at the computer? :hahaha:
-
guest bump
-
There's a Grimm tale about a King who mourns the loss of his beautiful Queen. He had a daughter with her before she passed, and when the daughter grows up she ends up looking exactly like her mother. So he falls in love with his daughter and marries her.
-
There's a Grimm tale about a King who mourns the loss of his beautiful Queen. He had a daughter with her before she passed, and when the daughter grows up she ends up looking exactly like her mother. So he falls in love with his daughter and marries her.
Did they make a porno version of that story??
-
There's a Grimm tale about a King who mourns the loss of his beautiful Queen. He had a daughter with her before she passed, and when the daughter grows up she ends up looking exactly like her mother. So he falls in love with his daughter and marries her.
Did they make a porno version of that story??
SG never answered mee. :'(
-
There's a Grimm tale about a King who mourns the loss of his beautiful Queen. He had a daughter with her before she passed, and when the daughter grows up she ends up looking exactly like her mother. So he falls in love with his daughter and marries her.
Did they make a porno version of that story??
SG never answered mee. :'(
Sorry dude...
I don't know if they made a porno, but it seems like something they could have imagined up.