INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: The_P on November 09, 2007, 01:39:57 PM
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When it comes to suicide, the UK contradict themselves on this subject. It's not alright for people to consider euthanasia when they are suffering in pain from being physically immobile. However, it's fine for a Jehovah's Witness to be refused blood treatment while he/she's in hospital out of respect for their religious beliefs.
It seems that we're pussyfooting around those to suit the religious cults with their delusions and ignorance of medical science instead of giving everyone an equal opportunity to take their life if they so wish.
What say you, people?
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I want everyone to kill themselves pretty much so I am for nationally legalized euthanasia. This would help with population issues maybe, though people are going to kill themselves one way or another if they really want to. The difference is preventing someone from faking a signed euthanasia form and actually murdering people, hehe.
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i agrea with the pea. :P
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i agrea with the pea. :P
You also agree with the notion that I am hot. ;o
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When it comes to suicide, the UK contradict themselves on this subject. It's not alright for people to consider euthanasia when they are suffering in pain from being physically immobile. However, it's fine for a Jehovah's Witness to be refused blood treatment while he/she's in hospital out of respect for their religious beliefs.
It seems that we're pussyfooting around those to suit the religious cults with their delusions and ignorance of medical science instead of giving everyone an equal opportunity to take their life if they so wish.
What say you, people?
The Euthanasia one is for peoples protection, there is a good possibility that vulnerable people can be persuaded into signing the forms to off themselves. Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment (a right which I think should be at a doctors discretion, so they can overrule it in cases of rank stupidity). I do hate the way religion is allowed a say in anything at all though...
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i agrea with the pea. :P
You also agree with the notion that I am hot. ;o
well, aren't you? :P
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There is a perceived difference between action
and inaction.
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If someone can do it for religious reasons, then they should be able to for whatever other reason they might have. All this crap about religious rights pisses me off. As an atheist I can have plenty of reasons to want to fuck off out of here, I don't want to have to convert to some religion to be able to do it though.
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I think it should be like the way they do it in Soylent Green. But without the being ground up into food part.
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If someone can do it for religious reasons, then they should be able to for whatever other reason they might have.
The difference isn't religion,
but rather action versus inaction.
Suicide cults are still frowned upon.
I think it should be like the way they do it in Soylent Green. But without the being ground up into food part.
The food is the best part.
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When it comes to suicide, the UK contradict themselves on this subject. It's not alright for people to consider euthanasia when they are suffering in pain from being physically immobile. However, it's fine for a Jehovah's Witness to be refused blood treatment while he/she's in hospital out of respect for their religious beliefs.
It seems that we're pussyfooting around those to suit the religious cults with their delusions and ignorance of medical science instead of giving everyone an equal opportunity to take their life if they so wish.
What say you, people?
The Euthanasia one is for peoples protection, there is a good possibility that vulnerable people can be persuaded into signing the forms to off themselves. Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment (a right which I think should be at a doctors discretion, so they can overrule it in cases of rank stupidity). I do hate the way religion is allowed a say in anything at all though...
I have to agree with this, AS LONG as it is a voluntary and iinformed choice BY the individual who chooses to refuse medical treatment or chooses to commit suicide. Where I draw the line is from my standpoint as a nurse/medical professional. Allow me to split hairs here. As a nurse and geriatric/hospice specialist, I am committed to ensuring that my patients enjoy the highest, most dignified quality of life that can be done at the end of that individuals life. Ex. If by giving that shot of morphine that a HOSPICE patient needs to control their pain........I am hastening the end of their life.......so be it...........it's their choice and I am honoring their choice. BUT, in the case of euthanasia, I'm worried that I am not responding to the patients desires, but to a Doctor's or families "convenience", especially since a lot of the case that I have read about and studied have been of patients UNABLE to make their own decisions.
I also do not like religion to intrude into medical decisions. Rather I support the individuals right to choose according to THEIR beliefs, not ANYBODY else's. In the long run, I have my own personal beliefs about such things, but, overall is my belief in the freedom of individual choice, AS LONG as that individual has the clarity of mind or previously written/documented choice to make that known. If things are done by hearsay or second guessing, than I as a medical professional can't follow those and have to go by my own personal ethics.
And if that sounds confusing, believe me, this is one grey, murky area that scares the bloody fucking shit outta me.
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When it comes to suicide, the UK contradict themselves on this subject. It's not alright for people to consider euthanasia when they are suffering in pain from being physically immobile. However, it's fine for a Jehovah's Witness to be refused blood treatment while he/she's in hospital out of respect for their religious beliefs.
It seems that we're pussyfooting around those to suit the religious cults with their delusions and ignorance of medical science instead of giving everyone an equal opportunity to take their life if they so wish.
What say you, people?
The Euthanasia one is for peoples protection, there is a good possibility that vulnerable people can be persuaded into signing the forms to off themselves. Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment (a right which I think should be at a doctors discretion, so they can overrule it in cases of rank stupidity). I do hate the way religion is allowed a say in anything at all though...
I have to agree with this, AS LONG as it is a voluntary and iinformed choice BY the individual who chooses to refuse medical treatment or chooses to commit suicide. Where I draw the line is from my standpoint as a nurse/medical professional. Allow me to split hairs here. As a nurse and geriatric/hospice specialist, I am committed to ensuring that my patients enjoy the highest, most dignified quality of life that can be done at the end of that individuals life. Ex. If by giving that shot of morphine that a HOSPICE patient needs to control their pain........I am hastening the end of their life.......so be it...........it's their choice and I am honoring their choice. BUT, in the case of euthanasia, I'm worried that I am not responding to the patients desires, but to a Doctor's or families "convenience", especially since a lot of the case that I have read about and studied have been of patients UNABLE to make their own decisions.
I also do not like religion to intrude into medical decisions. Rather I support the individuals right to choose according to THEIR beliefs, not ANYBODY else's. In the long run, I have my own personal beliefs about such things, but, overall is my belief in the freedom of individual choice, AS LONG as that individual has the clarity of mind or previously written/documented choice to make that known. If things are done by hearsay or second guessing, than I as a medical professional can't follow those and have to go by my own personal ethics.
And if that sounds confusing, believe me, this is one grey, murky area that scares the bloody fucking shit outta me.
I agree with you here, especially with the double effect bit. Personally though, in a lot of cases I would keep a paitient alive against their own wishes, its not like they cant off themselves later. Out of intrest, what would you have done with the Jehovahs witness?
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When it comes to suicide, the UK contradict themselves on this subject. It's not alright for people to consider euthanasia when they are suffering in pain from being physically immobile. However, it's fine for a Jehovah's Witness to be refused blood treatment while he/she's in hospital out of respect for their religious beliefs.
It seems that we're pussyfooting around those to suit the religious cults with their delusions and ignorance of medical science instead of giving everyone an equal opportunity to take their life if they so wish.
What say you, people?
The Euthanasia one is for peoples protection, there is a good possibility that vulnerable people can be persuaded into signing the forms to off themselves. Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment (a right which I think should be at a doctors discretion, so they can overrule it in cases of rank stupidity). I do hate the way religion is allowed a say in anything at all though...
I have to agree with this, AS LONG as it is a voluntary and iinformed choice BY the individual who chooses to refuse medical treatment or chooses to commit suicide. Where I draw the line is from my standpoint as a nurse/medical professional. Allow me to split hairs here. As a nurse and geriatric/hospice specialist, I am committed to ensuring that my patients enjoy the highest, most dignified quality of life that can be done at the end of that individuals life. Ex. If by giving that shot of morphine that a HOSPICE patient needs to control their pain........I am hastening the end of their life.......so be it...........it's their choice and I am honoring their choice. BUT, in the case of euthanasia, I'm worried that I am not responding to the patients desires, but to a Doctor's or families "convenience", especially since a lot of the case that I have read about and studied have been of patients UNABLE to make their own decisions.
I also do not like religion to intrude into medical decisions. Rather I support the individuals right to choose according to THEIR beliefs, not ANYBODY else's. In the long run, I have my own personal beliefs about such things, but, overall is my belief in the freedom of individual choice, AS LONG as that individual has the clarity of mind or previously written/documented choice to make that known. If things are done by hearsay or second guessing, than I as a medical professional can't follow those and have to go by my own personal ethics.
And if that sounds confusing, believe me, this is one grey, murky area that scares the bloody fucking shit outta me.
I agree with you here, especially with the double effect bit. Personally though, in a lot of cases I would keep a paitient alive against their own wishes, its not like they cant off themselves later. Out of intrest, what would you have done with the Jehovahs witness?
Jehovah's Witnesses have the right to their own beliefs. The hospitals that I have worked in have a special consent and release form for them. It's their choice. As long as they understand the consequences of that choice. As for keeping somebody alive against their will, thats murky too. I myself have a living will stating no extraordinary measures should be taken if it means the quality of my life will mean being a vegetable for the rest of my life. I have it in writing. But, a Doctor can certainly override that wish, if they want to.
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children of jehova's witnesses are a different story. if some guy wants to let himself die who are we to stop them? but if their children were to be ill... well, shouldn't the children get to decide? even if it is a decision made under pressure from the parents and doctors and religion... the parents shouldn't get to decide alone.
animal rights activists get to refuse treatment. it's not just religious people. if the drugs were tested with animals then you can refuse.
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When it comes to suicide, the UK contradict themselves on this subject. It's not alright for people to consider euthanasia when they are suffering in pain from being physically immobile. However, it's fine for a Jehovah's Witness to be refused blood treatment while he/she's in hospital out of respect for their religious beliefs.
It seems that we're pussyfooting around those to suit the religious cults with their delusions and ignorance of medical science instead of giving everyone an equal opportunity to take their life if they so wish.
What say you, people?
The Euthanasia one is for peoples protection, there is a good possibility that vulnerable people can be persuaded into signing the forms to off themselves. Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment (a right which I think should be at a doctors discretion, so they can overrule it in cases of rank stupidity). I do hate the way religion is allowed a say in anything at all though...
I have to agree with this, AS LONG as it is a voluntary and iinformed choice BY the individual who chooses to refuse medical treatment or chooses to commit suicide. Where I draw the line is from my standpoint as a nurse/medical professional. Allow me to split hairs here. As a nurse and geriatric/hospice specialist, I am committed to ensuring that my patients enjoy the highest, most dignified quality of life that can be done at the end of that individuals life. Ex. If by giving that shot of morphine that a HOSPICE patient needs to control their pain........I am hastening the end of their life.......so be it...........it's their choice and I am honoring their choice. BUT, in the case of euthanasia, I'm worried that I am not responding to the patients desires, but to a Doctor's or families "convenience", especially since a lot of the case that I have read about and studied have been of patients UNABLE to make their own decisions.
I also do not like religion to intrude into medical decisions. Rather I support the individuals right to choose according to THEIR beliefs, not ANYBODY else's. In the long run, I have my own personal beliefs about such things, but, overall is my belief in the freedom of individual choice, AS LONG as that individual has the clarity of mind or previously written/documented choice to make that known. If things are done by hearsay or second guessing, than I as a medical professional can't follow those and have to go by my own personal ethics.
And if that sounds confusing, believe me, this is one grey, murky area that scares the bloody fucking shit outta me.
I agree with you here, especially with the double effect bit. Personally though, in a lot of cases I would keep a paitient alive against their own wishes, its not like they cant off themselves later. Out of intrest, what would you have done with the Jehovahs witness?
Jehovah's Witnesses have the right to their own beliefs. The hospitals that I have worked in have a special consent and release form for them. It's their choice. As long as they understand the consequences of that choice. As for keeping somebody alive against their will, thats murky too. I myself have a living will stating no extraordinary measures should be taken if it means the quality of my life will mean being a vegetable for the rest of my life. I have it in writing. But, a Doctor can certainly override that wish, if they want to.
They do have such a right, just as you have a right to your own beliefs, and if they are out, then you could (and in my view should) have given the blood transfusion, just not told her about it. I really dont see why someone otherwise healthy should have been allowed to die for such a laughable reason. Asides, people in such religions are born into them.
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i dunno what the jehova peeps believe but some religions believe that meddling with the body risks the soul or something, or that the soul won't get into heaven. laughable? yeah, maybe. but it's not our place to decide that for someone else.
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i dunno what the jehova peeps believe but some religions believe that meddling with the body risks the soul or something, or that the soul won't get into heaven. laughable? yeah, maybe. but it's not our place to decide that for someone else.
My suspicion is if a lot of these people were not brought up in the religion would not be making such rankly stupid decisions with their lives. If a religion advocated suicide if your watch broke, wouldnt you attempt to stop someone offing themselves as part of the faith. I would say those doctors were guilty of inaction.
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i see your point. still... people are free to do stupid things.
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When it comes to suicide, the UK contradict themselves on this subject. It's not alright for people to consider euthanasia when they are suffering in pain from being physically immobile. However, it's fine for a Jehovah's Witness to be refused blood treatment while he/she's in hospital out of respect for their religious beliefs.
It seems that we're pussyfooting around those to suit the religious cults with their delusions and ignorance of medical science instead of giving everyone an equal opportunity to take their life if they so wish.
What say you, people?
The Euthanasia one is for peoples protection, there is a good possibility that vulnerable people can be persuaded into signing the forms to off themselves. Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment (a right which I think should be at a doctors discretion, so they can overrule it in cases of rank stupidity). I do hate the way religion is allowed a say in anything at all though...
I have to agree with this, AS LONG as it is a voluntary and iinformed choice BY the individual who chooses to refuse medical treatment or chooses to commit suicide. Where I draw the line is from my standpoint as a nurse/medical professional. Allow me to split hairs here. As a nurse and geriatric/hospice specialist, I am committed to ensuring that my patients enjoy the highest, most dignified quality of life that can be done at the end of that individuals life. Ex. If by giving that shot of morphine that a HOSPICE patient needs to control their pain........I am hastening the end of their life.......so be it...........it's their choice and I am honoring their choice. BUT, in the case of euthanasia, I'm worried that I am not responding to the patients desires, but to a Doctor's or families "convenience", especially since a lot of the case that I have read about and studied have been of patients UNABLE to make their own decisions.
I also do not like religion to intrude into medical decisions. Rather I support the individuals right to choose according to THEIR beliefs, not ANYBODY else's. In the long run, I have my own personal beliefs about such things, but, overall is my belief in the freedom of individual choice, AS LONG as that individual has the clarity of mind or previously written/documented choice to make that known. If things are done by hearsay or second guessing, than I as a medical professional can't follow those and have to go by my own personal ethics.
And if that sounds confusing, believe me, this is one grey, murky area that scares the bloody fucking shit outta me.
I agree with you here, especially with the double effect bit. Personally though, in a lot of cases I would keep a paitient alive against their own wishes, its not like they cant off themselves later. Out of intrest, what would you have done with the Jehovahs witness?
Jehovah's Witnesses have the right to their own beliefs. The hospitals that I have worked in have a special consent and release form for them. It's their choice. As long as they understand the consequences of that choice. As for keeping somebody alive against their will, thats murky too. I myself have a living will stating no extraordinary measures should be taken if it means the quality of my life will mean being a vegetable for the rest of my life. I have it in writing. But, a Doctor can certainly override that wish, if they want to.
They do have such a right, just as you have a right to your own beliefs, and if they are out, then you could (and in my view should) have given the blood transfusion, just not told her about it. I really dont see why someone otherwise healthy should have been allowed to die for such a laughable reason. Asides, people in such religions are born into them.
Like I said it's murky and I agree with you, especially about the children and otherwise healthy people who could be saved by a simple transfusion. Giving it and Not telling them about it, conflicts with my own ethics and seems like the beginnings of a slippery slope of justifying doing this or that, witholding this or that based upon my own beliefs/ethics. Where would it end?
That murkiness and slippery slope possibility, scares me. I don't think that I could work in a state that has a "Right to die' or "Physicians assisted euthanasia" law. Thats just me! I can handle someone who has a DNR (Do not resuscitate) paper that has been signed off by the patient AND the doctor and the patients family/guardian. Of course I work with the elderly and dying anyway, so it's usually clearly defined as to the limits I have. My personal beliefs include the sanctity of all life, but, I also support the individuals right to refuse treatment, get an abortion, or whatever.
I know that sounds contradictory, but, that is something that I have worked out for myself and am at peace with. I also allow myself some flexibility to be able to handle those situations that come up that somehow fall into those Grey Areas that pop up in dealing with people and beliefs. To me life is NOT totally black and white, there is black and white on the sides, but, the middle is one big shade of grey. And it's something that I and I alone have to navigate thru and live with the consequences.
I don't know if that makes any sense to others, but, it's the best I can do to explain myself.
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children of jehova's witnesses are a different story. if some guy wants to let himself die who are we to stop them? but if their children were to be ill... well, shouldn't the children get to decide? even if it is a decision made under pressure from the parents and doctors and religion... the parents shouldn't get to decide alone.
I think that this is fair. At least in the case
of against the perceived wisdom. But, very
young children have no ability to indicate their
choice. Plus, doctors might use tactics to
convince the child. All gets tricky.
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i dunno what the jehova peeps believe but some religions believe that meddling with the body risks the soul or something, or that the soul won't get into heaven. laughable? yeah, maybe. but it's not our place to decide that for someone else.
My suspicion is if a lot of these people were not brought up in the religion would not be making such rankly stupid decisions with their lives. If a religion advocated suicide if your watch broke, wouldnt you attempt to stop someone offing themselves as part of the faith. I would say those doctors were guilty of inaction.
Sure, but it's not just a matter of religion.
Think of the Romans or Japanese, neither
of whom had a real feeling that suicide would
make any afterlife better, yet still did so for matters
of honor, or to protect their families. There's a whole
culture. Our beliefs are all based upon our culture.
Religion is a part of that. Why do you presume that
yours is better than theirs? Oh, I know the answer,
but that has no real standing.
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i dunno what the jehova peeps believe but some religions believe that meddling with the body risks the soul or something, or that the soul won't get into heaven. laughable? yeah, maybe. but it's not our place to decide that for someone else.
My suspicion is if a lot of these people were not brought up in the religion would not be making such rankly stupid decisions with their lives. If a religion advocated suicide if your watch broke, wouldnt you attempt to stop someone offing themselves as part of the faith. I would say those doctors were guilty of inaction.
Sure, but it's not just a matter of religion.
Think of the Romans or Japanese, neither
of whom had a real feeling that suicide would
make any afterlife better, yet still did so for matters
of honor, or to protect their families. There's a whole
culture. Our beliefs are all based upon our culture.
Religion is a part of that. Why do you presume that
yours is better than theirs? Oh, I know the answer,
but that has no real standing.
It is my honorific belief that preventing someone from killing themself in such a way is the right thing to do. Which takes preceedence, my beliefs or theirs? By the beliefs/ cuture arguement, it seems like people are justifying doing something because an ideology says so.
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I'd argue theirs, because you are trying to inflict
your beliefs on their body. BUT, this too is a matter
of societal beliefs.
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I'd argue theirs, because you are trying to inflict
your beliefs on their body. BUT, this too is a matter
of societal beliefs.
Ah but me letting them die would have a psychologal effect on me, which would lead to a set somatic effects on me.
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So, you've put relativism where it
ends up, unable to come to any
decision. From hence, perfection
is but a step away.
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So, you've put relativism where it ends up, unable to come to any decision. From hence, perfection is but a step away.
Perfection from which perspective...
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So, you've put relativism where it ends up, unable to come to any decision. From hence, perfection is but a step away.
Perfection from which perspective...
Mine. The only right one. :laugh:
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it would do them harm to do the transfusion without their consent, it might make the patient psychotic after they found out you had done this to them and doomed them to hell or whatnot, stupid belief maybe, still valid in their mind, and mind is a fragile thing for some. they might go insane or try to commit suicide or kill someone.
also it's selfish to make someone live just so your conscience can rest. and that in itself is a paradox.
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I think it should be like the way they do it in Soylent Green. But without the being ground up into food part.
Sometimes you deliver lines so dean pan Cal.
:LMAO:
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That's Ahayes though. :laugh:
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your namesake. :P :laugh:
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Apparently. I'll have to find a new name.
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I think it should be like the way they do it in Soylent Green. But without the being ground up into food part.
Sometimes you deliver lines so dean pan Cal.
:LMAO:
Cal is a dead guy, I'm a perverted evil card guy.
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you're both Maxes and that's that.
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I'm more often referred to as Pegasus.
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i'll tell you one thing, if i had a terminal illness i'd want the option of being put to sleep. people deserve that right because its there bodys
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i would as well
i was thinking that before
they were saying on the news how i have a 1 in 3 chance of getting cancer one day
i think it's likely i will kill myself at one point, i don't wanna die of any of these horrible things, and i don't wanna end up in an old people's home going weird. although at least we don't get cholera and typhus etc here anymore
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i don't want motor neurone disease. it's a horrific way to die.
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Suicide is for weak people and lemmings.
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There's a group out there called the "Hemlock Society" that gives advice on such things.
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how to die?
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sophie sent me a book about how to kill yourself, instructions and stuff. i fucking wish i'd paid more attention to that now. i hate myself for it. and i hate stupid books like that.
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a book can't make someone kill themselves.
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it can help though. it can give them ideas. i guess she would still have done it. sending me that should have been a sign to me what was going to happen though
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it wasn't your fault though. if someone wants to do it, noone can stop them. not even you.
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she wanted me to go there and asked me about it a couple weeks before she died. but yeah, aside from locking her in her room and watching her 24-7, there wouldn't be much i could do. she wouldn't have been as lonely though. her dad said she kept saying how she felt "so alone" :(
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i know it's hard not to feel bad about that. but could you have stayed with her forever? what about school and living situation and visa things... it's all complicated. it's not so easy to just go somewhere. :(
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yeah i'd only have gone for a week or 2 weeks properly. if i wanted to stop her completely i'd have tp have gone there permanently. i'd have had to give up uni and leave my family and flo and enroll at some school in san francisco or get a job there or something. i'd miss my family then though.
and i wouldn't have been able to look after her well enough i don't think. i can't even look after myself properly. i still wish i had though. but thinking that will just fuck me up forever, so maybe i need to stop
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i guess it doesn't serve any purpose to think like it. can't change the past. i keep thinking how i should have done things differently in my life, but does it help? i dunno, it doesn't change the past. :-\
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yeah, we can't do anything about stuff like that. :(
it's too final. there's nothing anyone can do to fix it
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the past is set and all we can do is change our feelings about it. but time does make things easier. a lot easier actually.
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Suicide is for weak people and lemmings.
lemmings are sexy.
I love the way they
squeak, when hit by
a blade.
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did you play Lemmings? i love that game.
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Soph, you couldn't have stopped her.
SOMETHING would have set her over.
Only by giving her a complete new purpose
could her mind have been changed.
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did you play Lemmings? i love that game.
A couple of the oldest versions. I wasn't too
good at the puzzles, but 'twas something my
wife and I could enjoy together. Though, I just
really loved hearing them die to the music.
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(http://members.tcq.net/video61/images/lynx/gamepics/lemmings.jpg)
(http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/img/screenshots/holiday_lemmings_1993.png)
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christmas lemmings to boot. :laugh:
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:laugh:
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(http://members.tcq.net/video61/images/lynx/gamepics/lemmings.jpg)
(http://it.travisbsd.org/lemmings/img/screenshots/holiday_lemmings_1993.png)
Yay Lemmings
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yeah i'd only have gone for a week or 2 weeks properly. if i wanted to stop her completely i'd have tp have gone there permanently. i'd have had to give up uni and leave my family and flo and enroll at some school in san francisco or get a job there or something. i'd miss my family then though.
and i wouldn't have been able to look after her well enough i don't think. i can't even look after myself properly. i still wish i had though. but thinking that will just fuck me up forever, so maybe i need to stop
If only things were that simple. Unfortunately, we're stuck in a strange place called REALITY.
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i am fully aware of "reality"
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i am fully aware of "reality"
Can you give me a clue then.
I haven't even decided WHICH
reality to bother trying to achieve
awareness of.
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i don't care for reality until the aliens come. i like dreams.
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reality sucks
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sleep then, my child.
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Seek the fey.
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tina fey
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i just had a weird dream. i was inside a video game and had to get my leg amputated. then my doctor told me he didn't think i had AS because i fidgit too much with my hands.
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then my doctor told me he didn't think i had AS because i fidgit too much with my hands.
that's hilarious.