INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Parts on September 06, 2007, 05:21:52 PM
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I am so sick of hearing about them. Today on the radio (I listen a lot to NYC news stations) I heard that they were complaining about people not giving them support anymore. WTF it was six years ago yeah it was bad but get the fuck over it. They piss and moan about everything the memorial, the building going up it goes on and on. Lot of people have losses that are just as bad to them but they get over it. Six fucking years!! People in my family have died in the last six years nobody is here to give me support still. What do these people expect :grrr:
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I would like to say the same about Diana. That was 10 years ago, and they still want shut up about the woman.
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I would like to say the same about Diana. That was 10 years ago, and they still want shut up about the woman.
I know what you mean and on that note, something I saw on B3ta that made me laugh- Princess Died:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/keighleymd/ladydie.gif)
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I would like to say the same about Diana. That was 10 years ago, and they still want shut up about the woman.
Yeah her too she's dead ten years and still it's news :grrr:
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I would like to say the same about Diana. That was 10 years ago, and they still want shut up about the woman.
I know what you mean and on that note, something I saw on B3ta that made me laugh- Princess Died:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/keighleymd/ladydie.gif)
:rofl:
:plus:
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I would like to say the same about Diana. That was 10 years ago, and they still want shut up about the woman.
I know what you mean and on that note, something I saw on B3ta that made me laugh- Princess Died:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/keighleymd/ladydie.gif)
I like it
:plus:
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yeah people lose people all the time, why are 9/11 people more deserving? i'm glad they were helped but it was ages ago. and every year people go on about this same stuff. hello, it's not the only tragedy in the world. in fact, the world's full of them.
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yeah people lose people all the time, why are 9/11 people more deserving?
Because they are Americans, and Americans are often spoilt babies about that sort of thing.
Can you imagine the reaction if someone starts complaining about the Anfal? (Saddam's campaign of mass-murder against the Kurds.) Folks would say, 'Oh, but that was in the 1980s, right? You just have to move on, get on with your life, don't dwell on it.' Blah blah blah. Up to 200,000 killed, and almost no-one has even heard of it, and doubtless most of those who have heard of it only noticed because of the Iraq War. Who was paying attention at the time?
On 11 Sept. most of the world stood in solidarity with Americans. And then, they got on with living. Nothing changed on 11 September; the only thing new about the attack was the victim. It is America's lack of experience with being on the receiving end of shit-storms that makes people so freaky about this. It's like all these fuckin' Bush speeches lately talking about Vietnam, and our collective national 'trauma'! What about the two million Indochinese we killed? Who grieves for them?
Anyroad...
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yeah. true dat. that's what i thought too when it happened. only thing different is the country. america has hurt a lot of countries, then it cries when it gets hurt.
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it reminds people what a terrible and dangerous world that we live in, that we need strong leaders and opposing them would be anti-patriotic.
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People never get over a family loss so I don't blame them. If I died, I don't think my mom and dad nor my brothers get over my loss. But they would still move on and live their normal lives. Unless I was murdered, then they would be fighting to find the killer and have him go to prison and not give up until it's done.
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Maybe because I live in the NYC metro area they are in the news still everyday about something. Yes we are babies about this sort of thing but maybe it's time we grew up
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yeah people lose people all the time, why are 9/11 people more deserving? i'm glad they were helped but it was ages ago. and every year people go on about this same stuff. hello, it's not the only tragedy in the world. in fact, the world's full of them.
It's the historical significance, I believe. It was the first time in our history the mainland of the USA was attacked, so successfully.
Every other country in the world has been tromped over for hundreds or even thousands of years. We ARE the babies of the world and we are still teething, by the UK historical timeline.
I'm mostly worried that we, as a nationality, have learned an improper response during this lesson.
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It's the historical significance, I believe. It was the first time in our history the mainland of the USA was attacked, so successfully.
Pearl Harbor was as bad as 9/11, War of 1812 was worse, the USA was invaded by Britain and managed to burn down the White House.
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People never get over a family loss so I don't blame them. If I died, I don't think my mom and dad nor my brothers get over my loss. But they would still move on and live their normal lives. Unless I was murdered, then they would be fighting to find the killer and have him go to prison and not give up until it's done.
:agreed: I do feel for the families, just as I feel for any family who's lost a loved one. It sucks. It gets easier to deal with, but you'll always feel some sadness. At the same time, I don't see how it's really "news" any more. So at the same time:
yeah people lose people all the time, why are 9/11 people more deserving?
Because they are Americans, and Americans are often spoilt babies about that sort of thing.
Can you imagine the reaction if someone starts complaining about the Anfal? (Saddam's campaign of mass-murder against the Kurds.) Folks would say, 'Oh, but that was in the 1980s, right? You just have to move on, get on with your life, don't dwell on it.' Blah blah blah. Up to 200,000 killed, and almost no-one has even heard of it, and doubtless most of those who have heard of it only noticed because of the Iraq War. Who was paying attention at the time?
On 11 Sept. most of the world stood in solidarity with Americans. And then, they got on with living. Nothing changed on 11 September; the only thing new about the attack was the victim. It is America's lack of experience with being on the receiving end of shit-storms that makes people so freaky about this. It's like all these fuckin' Bush speeches lately talking about Vietnam, and our collective national 'trauma'! What about the two million Indochinese we killed? Who grieves for them?
Anyroad...
A big fat :agreed: to this as well.
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yeah people lose people all the time, why are 9/11 people more deserving? i'm glad they were helped but it was ages ago. and every year people go on about this same stuff. hello, it's not the only tragedy in the world. in fact, the world's full of them.
It's the historical significance, I believe. It was the first time in our history the mainland of the USA was attacked, so successfully.
and that's why it was such a shock to everyone. i was really pissed off and shocked. because it broke an illusion of safety. the war was always "over there", not over here in the west where people were safe. it changed the world in an instant.
but they are playing the victim card and it's not healthy or fair.
it wasn't just america that got hit, in spirit it was all of the western world. and it had repercussions that affected us all. the paranoia and violence. anyone dark skinned was suddenly a suspect. anyone with a weird sounding name. anyone "foreign" on a plane. it's disgusting what happened to the world, not because of the attack but because of the response.
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yeah people lose people all the time, why are 9/11 people more deserving? i'm glad they were helped but it was ages ago. and every year people go on about this same stuff. hello, it's not the only tragedy in the world. in fact, the world's full of them.
It's the historical significance, I believe. It was the first time in our history the mainland of the USA was attacked, so successfully.
and that's why it was such a shock to everyone. i was really pissed off and shocked. because it broke an illusion of safety. the war was always "over there", not over here in the west where people were safe. it changed the world in an instant.
but they are playing the victim card and it's not healthy or fair.
it wasn't just america that got hit, in spirit it was all of the western world. and it had repercussions that affected us all. the paranoia and violence. anyone dark skinned was suddenly a suspect. anyone with a weird sounding name. anyone "foreign" on a plane. it's disgusting what happened to the world, not because of the attack but because of the response.
The fear is exactly what people of the Bush White House want you to feel. I would suspect they had something to do with it, both the media and the actual event in itself. All for a bit of political score settling and some peoples personal profit.
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i agree, Hardyboy. and just for saying that i'll :plus: your ass. i hate it when people think bush was uninvolved.
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i agree, Hardyboy. and just for saying that i'll :plus: your ass. i hate it when people think bush was uninvolved.
Then again, with his apparent lack of intelligence, it's hard to believe he could have been involved. I mean, the 9/11 attacks actually worked. :lol:
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
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I am so sick of hearing about them. Today on the radio (I listen a lot to NYC news stations) I heard that they were complaining about people not giving them support anymore. WTF it was six years ago yeah it was bad but get the fuck over it. They piss and moan about everything the memorial, the building going up it goes on and on. Lot of people have losses that are just as bad to them but they get over it. Six fucking years!! People in my family have died in the last six years nobody is here to give me support still. What do these people expect :grrr:
FFS we have blacks in this country still wanking about slavery over 150 years ago....
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I am so sick of hearing about them. Today on the radio (I listen a lot to NYC news stations) I heard that they were complaining about people not giving them support anymore. WTF it was six years ago yeah it was bad but get the fuck over it. They piss and moan about everything the memorial, the building going up it goes on and on. Lot of people have losses that are just as bad to them but they get over it. Six fucking years!! People in my family have died in the last six years nobody is here to give me support still. What do these people expect :grrr:
FFS we have blacks in this country still wanking about slavery over 150 years ago....
They are full of shit also. Every body's been fucked over if you go back in history enough. :'( :'( :'(My ancestors were starved out of their country by the potato famine I want money form the English :'( :'( :'( It's full of shit
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i agree, Hardyboy. and just for saying that i'll :plus: your ass. i hate it when people think bush was uninvolved.
Then again, with his apparent lack of intelligence, it's hard to believe he could have been involved. I mean, the 9/11 attacks actually worked. :lol:
Rove or any number of his officials could have presented him it, it could have even been an under the table black op. The other person I would suspect is "Bandar Bush". Bush probably just nodded his head.
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i agree, Hardyboy. and just for saying that i'll :plus: your ass. i hate it when people think bush was uninvolved.
Then again, with his apparent lack of intelligence, it's hard to believe he could have been involved. I mean, the 9/11 attacks actually worked. :lol:
Rove or any number of his officials could have presented him it, it could have even been an under the table black op. The other person I would suspect is "Bandar Bush". Bush probably just nodded his head.
I don't dispute that could have been the case, but then I wouldn't really call Bush involved so much as oblivious.
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
No I wasn't there when it happened. If I was there, I would have said so a long time ago. I was at home in Montana sleeping in bed when it happened.
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i agree, Hardyboy. and just for saying that i'll :plus: your ass. i hate it when people think bush was uninvolved.
Then again, with his apparent lack of intelligence, it's hard to believe he could have been involved. I mean, the 9/11 attacks actually worked. :lol:
Rove or any number of his officials could have presented him it, it could have even been an under the table black op. The other person I would suspect is "Bandar Bush". Bush probably just nodded his head.
I don't dispute that could have been the case, but then I wouldn't really call Bush involved so much as oblivious.
I suspect he is brighter than he makes out, just not the genius needed to pull it off. Al Franken has some points to say on Bush's act.
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i think he dumbs himself down. i saw some program on how bushy used to talk proper and all but he wanted to appeal to the bible belt swamp things and started to talk like them.
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i think he dumbs himself down. i saw some program on how bushy used to talk proper and all but he wanted to appeal to the bible belt swamp things and started to talk like them.
I hate the way he talks even if I agreed with him it would drive me insane
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yeah people lose people all the time, why are 9/11 people more deserving? i'm glad they were helped but it was ages ago. and every year people go on about this same stuff. hello, it's not the only tragedy in the world. in fact, the world's full of them.
QFT
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yeah people lose people all the time, why are 9/11 people more deserving?
Because they are Americans, and Americans are often spoilt babies about that sort of thing.
Can you imagine the reaction if someone starts complaining about the Anfal? (Saddam's campaign of mass-murder against the Kurds.) Folks would say, 'Oh, but that was in the 1980s, right? You just have to move on, get on with your life, don't dwell on it.' Blah blah blah. Up to 200,000 killed, and almost no-one has even heard of it, and doubtless most of those who have heard of it only noticed because of the Iraq War. Who was paying attention at the time?
On 11 Sept. most of the world stood in solidarity with Americans. And then, they got on with living. Nothing changed on 11 September; the only thing new about the attack was the victim. It is America's lack of experience with being on the receiving end of shit-storms that makes people so freaky about this. It's like all these fuckin' Bush speeches lately talking about Vietnam, and our collective national 'trauma'! What about the two million Indochinese we killed? Who grieves for them?
Anyroad...
Also quoted for truth! I'm sick of it as well, I was sick of the endlessly repeated film clips showing the second plane hitting the WTC that day. I am also sick of people are carrying on everytime a piece of bone or personal article is still dug up from some dusty crevice where it landed during the explosions and collapse. I was affected too, but, I'm not going to let it stop me from travelling on a plane, train, subway or whatever. American's are so naive and wimpy when it comes to catastrophes. AS many people died in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and the physical and monetary damage was greater. What's happened to those victims and their families? The list is endless of catastrophes that happen around the world everyday? We've been lucky in the US....................so far!
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Katrina survivors were treated like shit. :(
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If i gave my opinions on Sept 11th then most likely you would tell me to put my tin-hat on ( well maybe not so politely).
Pearl Harbour has been mentioned before in this thread.
Problem - Reaction - Solution.
The problem is manufactured as the best way of reaching the desired solution.
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we all need tin hats.
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we all need tin hats.
that's a good point.
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Katrina survivors were treated like shit. :(
They were poor and mostly black. 911 mostly white, middle to upper class. >:(
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Katrina survivors were treated like shit. :(
They were poor and mostly black. 911 mostly white, middle to upper class. >:(
Looks like taking down the coloured's only signs didnt have quite the effect the US likes to think.
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Katrina survivors were treated like shit. :(
They were poor and mostly black. 911 mostly white, middle to upper class. >:(
Looks like taking down the coloured's only signs didnt have quite the effect the US likes to think.
In some places it hasn't had any affect to all.
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Katrina survivors were treated like shit. :(
They were poor and mostly black. 911 mostly white, middle to upper class. >:(
Sad but true, that's probably got a lot to do with it!
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Katrina survivors were treated like shit. :(
They were poor and mostly black. 911 mostly white, middle to upper class. >:(
Sad but true, that's probably got a lot to do with it!
Plus it was in a city. Look at all the money and effort that has gone into restoring New Orleans. While poor small towns in Missississippi get squat! >:( Homes for affluent people built on the BEACHES that got wiped out are being rebuilt with federal money faster than the towns that are built in less "scenic" or popular areas. :grrr:
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:(
it's disgusting.
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:(
it's disgusting.
It's the American way so it seems :grrr:
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Katrina survivors were treated like shit. :(
They were poor and mostly black. 911 mostly white, middle to upper class. >:(
Sad but true, that's probably got a lot to do with it!
Agreed. And the fact that regurgitating 9/11 helps Bush to remind people about how important his war is.
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The most striking thing to me about 9/11 is that, regardless of what people say about the Middle East and our support of Israel or whatever, it came out of left field. There are massacres in other parts of the world and dictators like Saddam Hussein that gast heir own people or whatever but they are results of established international conflicts or internal, civil conflicts. What did they say was his motivation for 9/11? That we sent in troops to protect Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield or whatever? It's pretty surreal, if you think about it. What do these two things have to do with each other?
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I hate how when tragedies like school shootings or 9/11 are brought up, there are people who take those numbers and compare them to places like Africa. No matter how many people died, it's still a tragedy. I think what goes on in Africa is horrible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care about terrorist attacks in other countries. When I was in Australia, they brought up on the news that there was an attack in Indonesia and 90 (?) Australians were killed. I don't think that should be considered less important just because "only" 90 people were killed. It's horrible that London was attacked too. I don't think 9/11 should get less compassion because it happened in the USA or because of the number of people who died.
I do agree that families shouldn't be complaining about support though, because I think they got a lot of support. My mom's friend lost their son in 9/11, and she and her husband used to get sent checks for thousands of dollars all the time. Of course, they'd rather have their son though.
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I am so sick of hearing about them. Today on the radio (I listen a lot to NYC news stations) I heard that they were complaining about people not giving them support anymore. WTF it was six years ago yeah it was bad but get the fuck over it. They piss and moan about everything the memorial, the building going up it goes on and on. Lot of people have losses that are just as bad to them but they get over it. Six fucking years!! People in my family have died in the last six years nobody is here to give me support still. What do these people expect :grrr:
I feel like...they cling to their loved ones who may have been heroes..and expect to be treated the same.
they aren't the same.
they should embrace that their loved ones died doing what their heart told them to do...and relish that.
then...they should let it go.
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It's the historical significance, I believe. It was the first time in our history the mainland of the USA was attacked, so successfully.
Pearl Harbor was as bad as 9/11, War of 1812 was worse, the USA was invaded by Britain and managed to burn down the White House.
Obviously, Teejay, I was talking about twentieth century history, when I mentioned "mainland attacks" and deliberately omitted the attack on our most vulnerable occupations. Midway and the Philippines was a rugged battle as well. Pearl Harbor was not part of our union when it was attacked by the Japanese. We still fended that one off and recovered fairly well, I think. They haven't been interested in renewing hostility, since.
Of course in the early time of our union, the Brits did not want to give up their cash cow and we had to prove more than once that we were serious about our independence from their monarchs. Relations were stressed for decades, but again Britain gave up their attempts and even began to emulate some of our leaders' ideals. That war was won, too.
I fear that we will become our attackers in this case, because of how knee-jerk-ish we have proven to be. The 9-11 attack created an atmosphere where the average Americans gladly gave up many of their freedoms for security of a martial state, instead of fighting back as individuals. That is the historical significance I was referring to. Sorry to create a mixed context. It is very scary.
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
No I wasn't there when it happened. If I was there, I would have said so a long time ago. I was at home in Montana sleeping in bed when it happened.
no but you acted like you were directly connected to september 11th and asked me if i thought you were lying like it was somehow connected to you personally so stfu
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The most striking thing to me about 9/11 is that, regardless of what people say about the Middle East and our support of Israel or whatever, it came out of left field. There are massacres in other parts of the world and dictators like Saddam Hussein that gast heir own people or whatever but they are results of established international conflicts or internal, civil conflicts. What did they say was his motivation for 9/11? That we sent in troops to protect Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield or whatever? It's pretty surreal, if you think about it. What do these two things have to do with each other?
war is about oil, gold, money, squirrelskins...
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The most striking thing to me about 9/11 is that, regardless of what people say about the Middle East and our support of Israel or whatever, it came out of left field. There are massacres in other parts of the world and dictators like Saddam Hussein that gast heir own people or whatever but they are results of established international conflicts or internal, civil conflicts. What did they say was his motivation for 9/11? That we sent in troops to protect Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield or whatever? It's pretty surreal, if you think about it. What do these two things have to do with each other?
war is about oil, gold, money, squirrelskins...
Squirrelskins well now I understand :P
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
No I wasn't there when it happened. If I was there, I would have said so a long time ago. I was at home in Montana sleeping in bed when it happened.
no but you acted like you were directly connected to september 11th and asked me if i thought you were lying like it was somehow connected to you personally so stfu
STFU? So why the hell did you ask me then if I was there?
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I wonder why I hardly hear about 9/11 again. Maybe because I don't watch very much TV like I used to and when I do, it's either The Simspons or South Park and Little Bush or kid shows and I don't listen to talk shows on the radio.
Yes I was also very frustrated too about how Katrina was handled. I felt sorry for the people who were trapped there.
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I'm fucking sick of hearing about Virgina Tech as well. I you want to help them "heal", try not mentioning the shootings every time you can.
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I'm fucking sick of hearing about Virgina Tech as well. I you want to help them "heal", try not mentioning the shootings every time you can.
I would like to see anothe Virginia Tech style shooting. That way we can have a national debate about how we need to have Aspie controll. ::)
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Sometimes, I suspect scrap is being
sarcastic.
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
No I wasn't there when it happened. If I was there, I would have said so a long time ago. I was at home in Montana sleeping in bed when it happened.
no but you acted like you were directly connected to september 11th and asked me if i thought you were lying like it was somehow connected to you personally so stfu
STFU? So why the hell did you ask me then if I was there?
i suggest that you two face each others genitalia
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
No I wasn't there when it happened. If I was there, I would have said so a long time ago. I was at home in Montana sleeping in bed when it happened.
no but you acted like you were directly connected to september 11th and asked me if i thought you were lying like it was somehow connected to you personally so stfu
STFU? So why the hell did you ask me then if I was there?
i suggest that you two face each others genitalia
Just another I2 "girlie" slap fight!
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
No I wasn't there when it happened. If I was there, I would have said so a long time ago. I was at home in Montana sleeping in bed when it happened.
no but you acted like you were directly connected to september 11th and asked me if i thought you were lying like it was somehow connected to you personally so stfu
STFU? So why the hell did you ask me then if I was there?
i suggest that you two face each others genitalia
Just another I2 "girlie" slap fight!
actually, since they both ahve posted pictures, i assumed it was entirely possible.
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
No I wasn't there when it happened. If I was there, I would have said so a long time ago. I was at home in Montana sleeping in bed when it happened.
no but you acted like you were directly connected to september 11th and asked me if i thought you were lying like it was somehow connected to you personally so stfu
STFU? So why the hell did you ask me then if I was there?
i suggest that you two face each others genitalia
Just another I2 "girlie" slap fight!
actually, since they both ahve posted pictures, i assumed it was entirely possible.
I'd pay money to watch that one. :popcorn:
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i agree! september 11th=overrated. fuck the familys, and fuck anyone who says 9/11, or wants that to somehow affect them personally. were you there spokane girl? outta here with that bullshit.
No I wasn't there when it happened. If I was there, I would have said so a long time ago. I was at home in Montana sleeping in bed when it happened.
no but you acted like you were directly connected to september 11th and asked me if i thought you were lying like it was somehow connected to you personally so stfu
STFU? So why the hell did you ask me then if I was there?
i suggest that you two face each others genitalia
Just another I2 "girlie" slap fight!
actually, since they both ahve posted pictures, i assumed it was entirely possible.
I'd pay money to watch that one. :popcorn:
the fumbling. the mumbling. richard bitching. lube everywhere.
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:puke: Actually I think they'd make a lovely couple! :wedding:
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i love Armin Van Buuren.
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The most striking thing to me about 9/11 is that, regardless of what people say about the Middle East and our support of Israel or whatever, it came out of left field. There are massacres in other parts of the world and dictators like Saddam Hussein that gast heir own people or whatever but they are results of established international conflicts or internal, civil conflicts. What did they say was his motivation for 9/11? That we sent in troops to protect Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield or whatever? It's pretty surreal, if you think about it. What do these two things have to do with each other?
war is about oil, gold, money, squirrelskins...
Duh hur hur hur BRILLIANT STATEMENT
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The most striking thing to me about 9/11 is that, regardless of what people say about the Middle East and our support of Israel or whatever, it came out of left field. There are massacres in other parts of the world and dictators like Saddam Hussein that gast heir own people or whatever but they are results of established international conflicts or internal, civil conflicts. What did they say was his motivation for 9/11? That we sent in troops to protect Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield or whatever? It's pretty surreal, if you think about it. What do these two things have to do with each other?
WTF are you talking about? 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, it had everything to do with Al Queda and their agenda for the return of Palestine. That is what Osama claimed when he also claimed responsiblity for the attacks. They basically are all about killing us white devils who took some of their holy land and gave it to the Jews. Desert Shield was all about Kuwait not Saudi Arabia. Britain and the US sold chemical weapons to Saddam in the 80s which he used against the Kurds and somewhat against Iran (we were hoping he would use them all on Iran). The Iraq invasion was due to the US thinking that Saddam still had some of these weapons left and was manufacturing new ones (obviously a bad assumption). Bad intelligence and lies ftl. The oil pumped thus far in Iraq post invasion and during the occupation has been sold to companies world wide at the going price and not discounted to the US or Britain. Desert Fox (Clinton) and Shield were similar only in the chemical weapons respect. Shield was more about freeing Kuwait because Iraq invaded it lol. Dictators all over the world don't launch SCUD missles at Tel Aviv to kill Jews, Saddam sure has and the US feared he would give such weapons to terrorists. Basically a twitch overreaction that has been taken WAY too far. I am all about killing Uday though, any guy who rapes women and puts their husbands in Iron Maidens definitely deserves death.
Katrina victims got fucked pretty bad, though most natural disaster victims usually don't fare well (the ones from Andrew and Hugo were fairly fucked just not as many people involved). There are a good portion of the Katrina survivors that moved here and they have started a rash of crime lately. Many former New Orleans residents have been popping up on the news here involved in crime. A few friends of mine which I played FFXI with got their shit utterly destroyed. Although a crapload of money has been spent trying to help, it will never be enough. The area is a fucking bayou lol.
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The most striking thing to me about 9/11 is that, regardless of what people say about the Middle East and our support of Israel or whatever, it came out of left field. There are massacres in other parts of the world and dictators like Saddam Hussein that gast heir own people or whatever but they are results of established international conflicts or internal, civil conflicts. What did they say was his motivation for 9/11? That we sent in troops to protect Saudi Arabia during Desert Shield or whatever? It's pretty surreal, if you think about it. What do these two things have to do with each other?
WTF are you talking about? 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, it had everything to do with Al Queda and their agenda for the return of Palestine. That is what Osama claimed when he also claimed responsiblity for the attacks. They basically are all about killing us white devils who took some of their holy land and gave it to the Jews. Desert Shield was all about Kuwait not Saudi Arabia. Britain and the US sold chemical weapons to Saddam in the 80s which he used against the Kurds and somewhat against Iran (we were hoping he would use them all on Iran). The Iraq invasion was due to the US thinking that Saddam still had some of these weapons left and was manufacturing new ones (obviously a bad assumption). Bad intelligence and lies ftl. The oil pumped thus far in Iraq post invasion and during the occupation has been sold to companies world wide at the going price and not discounted to the US or Britain. Desert Fox (Clinton) and Shield were similar only in the chemical weapons respect. Shield was more about freeing Kuwait because Iraq invaded it lol. Dictators all over the world don't launch SCUD missles at Tel Aviv to kill Jews, Saddam sure has and the US feared he would give such weapons to terrorists. Basically a twitch overreaction that has been taken WAY too far. I am all about killing Uday though, any guy who rapes women and puts their husbands in Iron Maidens definitely deserves death.
Katrina victims got fucked pretty bad, though most natural disaster victims usually don't fare well (the ones from Andrew and Hugo were fairly fucked just not as many people involved). There are a good portion of the Katrina survivors that moved here and they have started a rash of crime lately. Many former New Orleans residents have been popping up on the news here involved in crime. A few friends of mine which I played FFXI with got their shit utterly destroyed. Although a crapload of money has been spent trying to help, it will never be enough. The area is a fucking bayou lol.
Um, no? I stopped reading after you said that Desert Shield was "about Kuwait and not Saudi Arabia." Not that there wasn't stuff before that that pissed me off, but whatever. Might wanna wiki up some info there, dude...
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Wikipedia is often wrong, I would say in this case it was if you think it was all about defending Saudi Arabia (was just as much about defending Israel). Saddam invaded Kuwait first and that is what caused the UN to act. Desert Storm and Desert Shield are both part of the Gulf War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
Oh shit the whole reason it developed was due to the Invasion of Kuwait according to Wiki. The reason why the UN sanctioned it was due to the notion of liberating Kuwait. While they were trying to prevent an invasion of Saudi Arabia, the whole reason why they went there was due to Iraq basically annexing Kuwait. We didn't have enough troops at the start to prevent an Iraq invasion of Saudi Arabia, we were concentrating on Kuwait. Also stopping Saddam from firing SCUDs into Tel Aviv was equal if not more important to the US than protecting the Saudis (though the threat to them was closer technically).
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Yeah dude. Those fucking jews clogged up my toilet the other day, too. I knew they were no fucking good. I'm sure it was them.
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Yeah dude. Those fucking jews clogged up my toilet the other day, too. I knew they were no fucking good. I'm sure it was them.
Huh? They can't help that they were getting missles fired upon them by Saddam. It is pretty popular in Muslim nations to hate on the Jewish state of Israel. That is why Hezbollah and Al Queda exist primarily lol. What do you mean by you are sure it is the Jews anyways? The US caring more about Israel than Saudi Arabia should be of no surprise. That was some decent tasting sarcasm btw.
We only care about Saudi Arabia's oil in my opinion. Once those fuckers run out of oil or we finally find an suitable and cheap alternative fuel source... we won't give a fuck about them. Osama's family is the richest family in the world and all of their money comes from oil. 30% or so of the oil sold in the US comes from Saudi Arabia last I read. So every 10 dollars I spend on gas 3 go towards Osama's family. Makes me feel great, really.
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Today is Sept. 11, 2007; six years has passed since then. Let Us all have a moment of silence please. Remember many died this day.
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if we had a moment of silence for all dead people, we couldn't talk at all.
why not celebrate the living instead and try to make the world more peaceful in our own lives?
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if we had a moment of silence for all dead people, we couldn't talk at all.
why not celebrate the living instead and try to make the world more peaceful in our own lives?
You maybe right but if We don't remember then We forget. They become martyrs for Us All to yet learn to Live in a Peaceful World in the end.
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maybe you're right there too.
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We are both right. Just have different ways to approach it.
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Remembering is important but moving on is also. It's good to remember but bad to dwell in the past thinking of all the things that could have been when we should be working toward the future. I have no problems with memorial services but I don't want to turn my entire life into one.
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Maybe we should start a thread on what we were doing at the time when this event occured and how it effected us or if we were effected and if we lost anyone in the terrorism; friends, family, relatives, people we knew.
Richard would probably call us all a liar :laugh:
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Maybe we should start a thread on what we were doing at the time when this event occured and how it effected us or if we were effected and if we lost anyone in the terrorism; friends, family, relatives, people we knew.
That's a good idea. I took my daughter to kindergarten and it was one of my volunteer days to stay and help the teacher. I had not even seen the news yet that morning and she told me what had happened. I asked her if she was joking. I did not really think that she would joke about something like that, I just had trouble believing it at first.
I think it would be nice to remember the people killed by doing something nice for someone who is alive now.
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it's important to take the lessons from what's happened and move on otherwise. we can always remember the people we've lost and the things losing them has taught us. clinging onto tragedy itself and wallowing in the pain is not healthy.
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it's important to take the lessons from what's happened and move on otherwise. we can always remember the people we've lost and the things losing them has taught us. clinging onto tragedy itself and wallowing in the pain is not healthy.
It's not always as easy as it sounds, Milla. Has anyone dear to you ever died?
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yes. i know it's not easy and when someone dies i am the sort of person who doesn't want to move on at all. but eventually one does. i do know everyone grieves how long they need to grieve, if that's one year or 10 years, i'm not gonna judge them.
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it's important to take the lessons from what's happened and move on otherwise. we can always remember the people we've lost and the things losing them has taught us. clinging onto tragedy itself and wallowing in the pain is not healthy.
It's not always as easy as it sounds, Milla. Has anyone dear to you ever died?
For me, yes. And I've mostly forgotten.
Now and then remembering them in
a better light than they ever really
deserved.
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it's important to take the lessons from what's happened and move on otherwise. we can always remember the people we've lost and the things losing them has taught us. clinging onto tragedy itself and wallowing in the pain is not healthy.
It's not always as easy as it sounds, Milla. Has anyone dear to you ever died?
For me, yes. And I've mostly forgotten.
Now and then remembering them in
a better light than they ever really
deserved.
Time seems to have a way of doing that
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September 11th = cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. :violin:
We've had the Battle of Hastings, the Great Fire of London, and numerous wars against our mainland neighbours, and yet we still get on with life. ::)
Dallas is over. Enough with the soap opera already -- it's dead and buried.
(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
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September 11th = cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it. :violin:
We've had the Battle of Hastings, the Great Fire of London, and numerous wars against our mainland neighbours, and yet we still get on with life. ::)
Dallas is over. Enough with the soap opera already -- it's dead and buried.
(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
I can't agree more :plus:
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All those other disasters Ozy mentioned happened before our life time so no one wasn't even born yet when they occured so of course we got over it. We didn't lose anyone in our family in them because none of us were even born yet. It be years before this disaster gets over with from everyone because pretty soon we all be dead and the people who will be alive weren't even born yet when it happened, nor anyone in their families.
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well spoken, Spokane.
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(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
Couldn't agree more. There is a major difference between showing respect for, and solidarity with, the grieving of the victims and their families, but the media needs to shut the hell up about this and give people time to heal in peace. All of this shameless profiteering, whether it be by publishers or politicians, is just dancing on the graves as far as I'm concerned.
WTF are you talking about? 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, it had everything to do with Al Queda and their agenda for the return of Palestine. That is what Osama claimed when he also claimed responsiblity for the attacks. They basically are all about killing us white devils who took some of their holy land and gave it to the Jews.
Huh. And here I remembered him saying that it was about getting the infidels out of Arabia--meaning the Americans. Which, of course, would only be a first step toward his dream of re-establishing the caliphate. Usama hates the Saudi government every bit as much as the American because he feels that they are traitors to Islam for being moderately pro-Western. Why do you think the Saudis buy so many weapons from us, anyhow? The Islamists are gunning for them, too. And whilst Usama will trumpet the Palestinian cause at times, he's certainly no fan of the PLO and does not fight for their 'liberation' from the Israelis. Like Saddam, the PLO is secular, and Usama is an Islamist after all...
As for Saddam firing SCUDs at Israel, that was mostly because it was the only freakin' Western target he could hit, and most of them still failed to do any real damage. Saddam viewed Israel as an American proxy, which to some extent they are (though a less reliable one than Washington would prefer). If he'd had weapons that could target Americans, you'd better believe they'd have been aimed at us instead. His beef with Israel had never been religious, remember, it was solely a matter of Arab nationalism, though he was not averse to playing the Islam card at times to garner domestic support.
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(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
Couldn't agree more. There is a major difference between showing respect for, and solidarity with, the grieving of the victims and their families, but the media needs to shut the hell up about this and give people time to heal in peace. All of this shameless profiteering, whether it be by publishers or politicians, is just dancing on the graves as far as I'm concerned.
WTF are you talking about? 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, it had everything to do with Al Queda and their agenda for the return of Palestine. That is what Osama claimed when he also claimed responsiblity for the attacks. They basically are all about killing us white devils who took some of their holy land and gave it to the Jews.
Huh. And here I remembered him saying that it was about getting the infidels out of Arabia--meaning the Americans. Which, of course, would only be a first step toward his dream of re-establishing the caliphate. Usama hates the Saudi government every bit as much as the American because he feels that they are traitors to Islam for being moderately pro-Western. Why do you think the Saudis buy so many weapons from us, anyhow? The Islamists are gunning for them, too. And whilst Usama will trumpet the Palestinian cause at times, he's certainly no fan of the PLO and does not fight for their 'liberation' from the Israelis. Like Saddam, the PLO is secular, and Usama is an Islamist after all...
As for Saddam firing SCUDs at Israel, that was mostly because it was the only freakin' Western target he could hit, and most of them still failed to do any real damage. Saddam viewed Israel as an American proxy, which to some extent they are (though a less reliable one than Washington would prefer). If he'd had weapons that could target Americans, you'd better believe they'd have been aimed at us instead. His beef with Israel had never been religious, remember, it was solely a matter of Arab nationalism, though he was not averse to playing the Islam card at times to garner domestic support.
:plus: For an enlightening and informed post.
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(Note that I'm not trivialising the victims' families' anguish, but the hype that comes from it.)
Couldn't agree more. There is a major difference between showing respect for, and solidarity with, the grieving of the victims and their families, but the media needs to shut the hell up about this and give people time to heal in peace. All of this shameless profiteering, whether it be by publishers or politicians, is just dancing on the graves as far as I'm concerned.
WTF are you talking about? 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq, it had everything to do with Al Queda and their agenda for the return of Palestine. That is what Osama claimed when he also claimed responsiblity for the attacks. They basically are all about killing us white devils who took some of their holy land and gave it to the Jews.
Huh. And here I remembered him saying that it was about getting the infidels out of Arabia--meaning the Americans. Which, of course, would only be a first step toward his dream of re-establishing the caliphate. Usama hates the Saudi government every bit as much as the American because he feels that they are traitors to Islam for being moderately pro-Western. Why do you think the Saudis buy so many weapons from us, anyhow? The Islamists are gunning for them, too. And whilst Usama will trumpet the Palestinian cause at times, he's certainly no fan of the PLO and does not fight for their 'liberation' from the Israelis. Like Saddam, the PLO is secular, and Usama is an Islamist after all...
As for Saddam firing SCUDs at Israel, that was mostly because it was the only freakin' Western target he could hit, and most of them still failed to do any real damage. Saddam viewed Israel as an American proxy, which to some extent they are (though a less reliable one than Washington would prefer). If he'd had weapons that could target Americans, you'd better believe they'd have been aimed at us instead. His beef with Israel had never been religious, remember, it was solely a matter of Arab nationalism, though he was not averse to playing the Islam card at times to garner domestic support.
:plus: For an enlightening and informed post.
Agreed. :plus:
Nice to see you in another thread, morthaur.
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"We fought you because we are free ... and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours," bin Laden said.
He said he was first inspired to attack the United States by the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon in which towers and buildings in Beirut were destroyed in the siege of the capital.
"While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women," he said.
"God knows that it had not occurred to our mind to attack the towers, but after our patience ran out and we saw the injustice and inflexibility of the American-Israeli alliance toward our people in Palestine and Lebanon, this came to my mind," he said.
Osama/Usama said this in response to the 9/11 attacks. These were his words on the videotape lol.
Saddam sure did claim to hate the Jews. The reason why Arabs like him hate the Jews is due to what the Quran says about Jews and Christians that deny that Allah is the one true God. It says they are to destroy people who deny Allah. I can easily find and quote that if you really need me to.
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the Osama/Usama crap is done with. it's Osama. get that? ???
i'm gonna kick your ass if you say it's Usama. fuckssake.
anyone who hates Jews gonna have to answer to me! Jews fucking rock. anyone who wants them dead is just jealous cuz they are awesome.
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"We fought you because we are free ... and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours," bin Laden said.
Osama/Usama said this in response to the 9/11 attacks. These were his words on the videotape lol.
Look again at that first line. You are confusing the inspiration for an attack on the US with the justification and reasoning for going to war against the infidels in the first place.
Incidentally, the translation on Al Jazeera is much clearer. The relevant parts from it corresponding to the passage you quoted are there rendered like so. I will embolden keys passages.
Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.
If so, then let him explain to us why we don't strike for example - Sweden? And we know that freedom-haters don't possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 - may Allah have mercy on them.
No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.
No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.
But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11th, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real causes. And thus, the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred.
So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken, for you to consider.
I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.
The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.
I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.
The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.
In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.
And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.
And that day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy, while resistance is terrorism and intolerance.
This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions as Bush Sr did in Iraq in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known, and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children - also in Iraq - as Bush Jr did, in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages.
So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs, should a man be blamed for defending his sanctuary?
Is defending oneself and punishing the aggressor in kind, objectionable terrorism? If it is such, then it is unavoidable for us.
This is the message which I sought to communicate to you in word and deed, repeatedly, for years before September 11th.
And so on. Look carefully now at what he is saying, because you are torturing the intent with your narrow interpretation.
He is saying that the inspiration for the attack came because Arabs and Arab lands were being bombed, either directly by the US or with American approval, and that such attacks are the reason for retaliation. By "our nation" he means the Arab lands as a whole; this includes Israel, yes, but it also includes Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the Gulf states, all of which are enemies of Islam for accommodating the Americans (in his view).
Your reading is a gross simplification. Or rather, it is a complication of what is, for him, a very simple issue: Americans and ancient aliens hurt Arabs, therefore they deserve to be hurt in return. You cannot understand his behaviour solely in light of the issue in Palestine, as that reading ignores his real goals: remove the infidels from the Arab Homeland. All of them.
Saddam sure did claim to hate the Jews. The reason why Arabs like him hate the Jews is due to what the Quran says about Jews and Christians that deny that Allah is the one true God. It says they are to destroy people who deny Allah. I can easily find and quote that if you really need me to.
The Qur'an also demands respect and protection for other "peoples of the book", which has allowed numerous small religious minorities to exist in the Near East, with the only criterion being their presence/mention in the Qur'an. Do you need me to outline in detail the traditional status of Jews in Islamic law? There is no sensible justification under Islamic law for "destruction" of the Jews, since--according to Qur'anic logic--the Jews actually worship the same G-d. Which means they do not "deny Allah"! Did that not even occur to you?!
the Osama/Usama crap is done with. it's Osama. get that? ???
i'm gonna kick your ass if you say it's Usama. fuckssake.
What's the big deal? Was this actually fought over somewhere when I wasn't paying attention?
I just render it that way out of habit 'cuz it's how I usually see it. Should we just leave it in Arabic then? :laugh:
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around 9/11 noone could get it right. Osama, Usama, Esama, Asama, Barack Obama, Oma Desala... pick one!
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Same problem with Quadafi - who's name is now
spelled completely differently.
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i used to think american newscrews were professional and checked things out. but the Usama crap opened my eyes.
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They just make it up.
BBC is better. They get
paid.
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Not all of our letters correspond perfectly with letters in different alphabets.
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crap excuse.
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Jews = infidels (same with Christians). He hates America for supporting Israel. For just "permitting" Israel to invade Lebanon and helping them, he hates the U.S.
Jews worship Jehovah/Yahweh/etc and not really Allah like the Islamists claim. Since Allah to them is the one true God, then everyone must worship him or be destroyed. Lemme find that verse in the 9th sunnah I think.
"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'We are Christians': because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (The Noble Quran, 5:82)"
"Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)"
Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61
Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. 2:65-66
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
# Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.) 9:6
# Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. 9:7-9
# Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5) 9:11
# Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory. 9:12-14
# Don't let idolaters tend the sanctuaries. Their works are in vain and they will be burned in the Fire. 9:17
# Don't make be friends with with your disbelieving family members. Those who do so are wrong-doers. 9:23
# Allah punished those who disbelieved. 9:26
# Only idolaters are unclean. Keep them away from your places of worship. 9:28
# Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29
# Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30
# The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions. 9:33
# Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. 9:34
There is much more. Very obvious that the Quran doesn't like Jews or Christians. Unfortunately there is a lot more where that came from regarding both religions in relation to Islam.
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Jews = infidels (same with Christians). He hates America for supporting Israel. For just "permitting" Israel to invade Lebanon and helping them, he hates the U.S.
More than 'permitting'. The US is essentially WHY Israel
has the military might that it does. Indeed, why Israel
survives. We could halt just about any action they take.
They have no other allies, really.
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We could halt just about any action they take.
Ha. Does that include them torpedoing our ships?
So there's a great list of the usual bible snippets that we can always point to when someone blows something up or burns someone alive. It's unsatisfying and one dimensional. Not only are there other factors at work, but they have been researched and documented. Unfortunately, the western obsession with Israel/Palestine creates a whole lot of noise.
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Ha. Does that include them torpedoing our ships?
:laugh:
Presumably that was an accident.
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Jews = infidels (same with Christians). He hates America for supporting Israel. For just "permitting" Israel to invade Lebanon and helping them, he hates the U.S.
More than 'permitting'. The US is essentially WHY Israel
has the military might that it does. Indeed, why Israel
survives. We could halt just about any action they take.
They have no other allies, really.
Yeah France gave them nuclear technology for their plants as well. The U.S. is their main ally, that much is for sure. The UN might help them if it got too bad imo.
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around 9/11 noone could get it right. Osama, Usama, Esama, Asama, Barack Obama, Oma Desala... pick one!
Hrmm... Well, the FBI's wanted poster uses Usama, as does Al Jazeera. The BBC used to use that form but recent articles are now saying Osama. Either way, it's just a matter of transliteration.
Languages using other scripts than the Latin often have differing forms at differing times and places. Look at the argument over Chinese transliteration: Beijing is now pushing Pinyin and the Taiwanese are sticking with Wade-Giles (e.g.: Mao Zedong vs. Mao Tse-tung; Teibei vs. Taipei, Nanjing vs. Nanking, etc.). And Russian studies still has no consensus, with folks like me preferring (e.g.) Trotskii and others using Trotsky; and then there's the debate over Anglicization: is it Peter or Pyotr? :laugh: You can see this gets really annoying at times.
Anyroad... I'll try just to use 'bin Laden' if that makes ye happier. But if I use the full name, habit is likely to drop me into the occasional 'Usama'...
Jews worship Jehovah/Yahweh/etc and not really Allah like the Islamists claim. Since Allah to them is the one true God, then everyone must worship him or be destroyed.
Christians and Jews usually disagree, but as far as Islam is concerned, Allah is the same G-d first worshipped by the Jews and then by the Christians. The Qur'an is meaningless if this is not the case, as the entire justification for it depends upon the link to Abraham, etc. Jews are considered wayward but are not condemned by Allah. Are you going to ignore the fact that non-Muslims have lived in Muslim lands, without trouble, for over a millennium?
There is much more. Very obvious that the Quran doesn't like Jews or Christians. Unfortunately there is a lot more where that came from regarding both religions in relation to Islam.
As for your string of out-of-context quotes, I will prepare a more suitable response another day, when I have time to sit down with the original sources. Suffice it for now to say that I reject your interpretation of Islamic law, and your dismissal of historical relations between Muslims and non-Muslims. This is the kind of pig-ignorant reading of the Qur'an that calls to mind that Westboro Baptist son-of-a-bitch and his obscene "god-hates-fags" movement...
More than 'permitting'. The US is essentially WHY Israel
has the military might that it does. Indeed, why Israel
survives. We could halt just about any action they take.
They have no other allies, really.
Agreed that the US was more complicit than permissive in the Lebanon campaign, but Israel is not always perfectly reliable and has frequently pursued foreign policy objectives at cross-purposes with America's. It is tempting at times to make a reductive assessment of the American military relationship with Israel, but it's not entirely fair to the facts.
Ha. Does that include them torpedoing our ships?
:laugh:
Presumably that was an accident.
It was, yeah, but the IDF would fire on American troops if they stood in the way of an important Israeli objective, and they have said so before. Israel's leadership have committed themselves to acting solely in their perceived national interest, for the sake of their national survival, and they don't much give a hoot if they piss people off along the way.
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The UN might help them if it got too bad imo.
Pfft. Israel is up shit's creek in the UN,
if not for US bullying. The general assembly
is almost ALWAYS trying to get them to
support right of return.
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around 9/11 noone could get it right. Osama, Usama, Esama, Asama, Barack Obama, Oma Desala... pick one!
Hrmm... Well, the FBI's wanted poster uses Usama, as does Al Jazeera. The BBC used to use that form but recent articles are now saying Osama. Either way, it's just a matter of transliteration.
Languages using other scripts than the Latin often have differing forms at differing times and places. Look at the argument over Chinese transliteration: Beijing is now pushing Pinyin and the Taiwanese are sticking with Wade-Giles (e.g.: Mao Zedong vs. Mao Tse-tung; Teibei vs. Taipei, Nanjing vs. Nanking, etc.). And Russian studies still has no consensus, with folks like me preferring (e.g.) Trotskii and others using Trotsky; and then there's the debate over Anglicization: is it Peter or Pyotr? :laugh: You can see this gets really annoying at times.
Anyroad... I'll try just to use 'bin Laden' if that makes ye happier. But if I use the full name, habit is likely to drop me into the occasional 'Usama'...
i don't really care i was just postwhoring. :P
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The UN might help them if it got too bad imo.
Pfft. Israel is up shit's creek in the UN,
if not for US bullying. The general assembly
is almost ALWAYS trying to get them to
support right of return.
True they are in a way. They keep pushing their luck.
Well I just quoted that stuff. The 9th sunnah or w/e has more that really can't be taken out of context. They are supposed to reach out to Christians and Jews and share their faith. I have never had a Islamic person explain jack to me about Islam to convert me. Maybe it is more common elsewhere.
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Here's a wee piece from pushing my memory, since I'm not likely to feel like digging into theology this week. I've had enough of that recently, I reckon! ;D And besides, my memory of the Qur'an and the Hadith is not nearly as good as it should be, so it takes me a while to find what I'm looking for. Anyroad, it's just something for you to think about...
For every one of you [Jews, Christians, Muslims], We have appointed a path and a way. If G-d had willed, He would have made you but one community; but that [He has not donein order that] He may try you in what has come to you. So compete with one another in good works.
Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeans, whoso believe in G-d and the Last Day, and work righteousness--their wage awaits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.
The Qur'an is not clear on a theory of supersession and there have been arguments both ways in the legal traditions. The general consensus is that the Abrahamic faiths are to be left alone, with a variant of the old "Let G-d sort 'em out" mentality.
Other religions, i.e. those not mentioned in the Qur'an as being of the Abrahamic lineage, are not so fortunate. It was to 'pagans' (non-Jews, non-Christians) that Islam was spread by the sword. Those of the other Abrahamic faiths in Muslim lands were tolerated and given religious freedom, so long as they paid their taxes and did not slander Islam.
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I would just like to point out that ZOMGaspies has gotten a hold of my "the jews clogged up my toilet" quote and seem to think I'm an anti-semite. :laugh:
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Hah!
I think that was MY fault,
some time ago. But only
because I thought 'twas
funny as hell.
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Hah!
I think that was MY fault,
some time ago. But only
because I thought 'twas
funny as hell.
Oh, I'm laughing my ass off.
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should i go to ZOMG?
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Meh. It's kinda dull, but why not?
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doesn't sound dull.
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Plus, there's at least one kinda pretty
bi guy you can play with there.
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who?
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Go there, and figure it out.
Consider it a challenge.
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ok.