INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Al Swearegen on September 30, 2016, 05:57:13 AM
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I used to consider myself a Liberal. Not the "Progressive Liberals" that infest Liberalism now but rather a classic Liberal.
I do believe us many Liberal principles and mindset. The open minded freedom of expression and examination of ideas appeals to me. Traditional values and holding on to values of bygone times always seemed a little silly and backward
Ditto when it came to belief in God.
Basically I ticked the boxes for most Classically Liberal values.
When looking at the Conservatives of yesteryear and even today, so many are crazy. Palin, Beck, Bachmann, Limbaugh, O'reilly and Romney the robot. BUT they are no longer the closeminded religious nutcases trying to fuck over society. Worse still, there are some really clever thinking people amount the nutcases that make such good sense.
The reason Conservatives are looking sane is that the left has been infiltrated and taken over by Progressive Liberals. These Liberals are not Liberals in the sense the Classical Liberals are Liberals. They are Authoritarian, closrminded and as Dogmatic as any Conservative Jesus freak. Yes in every sense the pendulum has swung the other way.
Apart from a few holdouts like Dave Rubin and to some extent Joe Rogan and Bill Maher, Liberals have embraced the poisonous Progressives. The have allowed themselves to be seduce by the false line about Social Justice and equity and indoctrinated by the doctrine.
I am torn. I would happily call myself Liberal were the majority of them not insane. But the last three years and they have become insane. Yes I could go the route of someone like Dave Rubin and say I was Liberal in spite of the rest of the Liberal populace...but meh.
It leaves the option of throwing in with the Consetvatives and belief me in comparison to the rabid Feminists, Black Lives Matter, Social Justice Warriors and the like, the bible thumping, gun toting, traditional Conservatives are very appealing in comparison.
However in a few years, no doubt. The pendulum will swing again. So that immediately as a Centrist now. I hope that the Classical Liberals end up.treating the Progressive thinkers like the Christians treat the Westboro Baptists.
In the meantime I am firmly on the fence
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You know I do feel much the same, but coming from a different angle, in a different county,...and finally arriving at a different conclusion!
I've actually been stubbornly apolitical for most of my life, feeling, as I did, that strengths lay in more academic pursuits, and that I couldn't be arsed with trying to aquire the kind of political knowledge it would take to be able to proffer an educated opinion. Heck, i even shunned the media, as best I could, because I didn't like having my mind manipulated.
That being so, the first political figure to seriously impress me (in a positive way) was Naom Chomsky, partly because he went through much the same process as myself; and had a really convincing explanation as to how and why the media were trying to manipulate my brain ; the moral of that tale being : don't fuck with the brain of a Professor of Linguistics (I mean Chomsky, not me).
Ofc meantime, I couldn't help noticing some of the undercurrents could I? You can't live with other people, care about people, and not be political , as it happens. Also most of my friends were very left wing, as chance had it (or is that mere chance? Maybe nice people , and thinking people will naturally gravitate towards the left) but, me, I had no time for the simplistic hate-filled rhetoric of the far left in the past. I really didn't fancy getting the guillotine out, and decapitating people just for the crime of being lucky bastards (how many people would sniff at being rich, really?).
I mean realy, I looked at some of the far-left leaflets and stuff, and it was like: The far rifght are saying that immigrants are lazy bastards who sponge off the state, and also steal all ourr jobs. So the far left retaliate with : immigrants are hard-working people who don't claim benefits, cos they're too busy contibuting to the british ecomnomy; what's more , too many the poor dowtrodden immigrant population are out-of-work because of prejuice.
I mean, FFS one side totally contridics iself, and the other side argues by inverting the contradicton (which only effectively repeats it) but with a different emotive twist. That kind of stuff only strengthened my own resoloution to stay well clear of politics.
In the meantime, i was inwardly trying to solve the World's problwems, like we do, ,and come up with some sort of realistic. workable and fair social system. Unbejknownst to myself, i was reinventing Marxism :rofl: . So, if I'm honest, I really have to call myself left-wing , don't I?
Meantime, my country was slowly going to the dogs, beginning with Thatcherism , which had an all-too-obvious negative impact on just about everything. I was trying not to have an opinion, but I couldn't help living it. Over the following 40-odd years, you could clearly see the supposedly Left-wing Labour Party signing up to so many Conversative agendas that the difference between the two parties completely vanished. We've been getting increasing privatisation of our industry, despite that very, very few Brits want that, benefits cuts and more benefits cuts, increasingly harsh treatment of the poor, an ever-widening gulf between rich and poor. People ceasing to vote, in droves , because they no longer feel they have any real choice; it's just one Tory Party or another.
Of course, I could not avoid noticing the general political ambience, especially given that my repeated academic failures (mostly due to inabilty to complete exam papers in the given time) had left me at the bottom of the social pyramid, rubbing shoulders with the depressed and disaffected all the time
Meantime the Social Justice Warriors have gained an awful lot of power in Britain, especially within the so-called Left. We've had an increasingly absurd "political correctness" rammed down our throats for decades. I was very active in the local Arts about 30-years ago, and Political correctness wad already repressive, back then. Most artists believe in freedom of expression of course (yes, even the downtrodden social minorities believe in freedom of expression) ; so the general ambience was one of resentment and/or mockery. A few blacks artists etc were taking advantage of the opprtunities that political correctness offered them, but sadly , they were more-often-than -not the not-very-talented ones; the "unprejudiced" white middle class were patronising them as if they they were performing monkeys, FFS. As for the white natives? Well, some of us jumped on the on patronage banwagon ofc, because the chances of getting Arts Council funding were roundabout zero otherwise. But most of us were staying well out of it. Which is why nobody's heard of most of us. Seriously, I've had the privilege of knowing some really talented people, who all felt it was better to get yerself a day job, be creative in your spare time, and keep your integrity. Political correctness is responsible for that, to quite a large degree.
I'm not talking about racists. i'm talking about a bunch of people who just couldn't stomach the unconscious (or it unacknowledged?) racism of the patronising classes, and who didn't like the divisive effect of it. Artists , for the most part, are quite naturally cosmopolitan, after all. We don't need telling how not to be racist.
(Oh! when I say Art , btw, I include poetry of course, which was my thing. Don't expect see any awesome images getting posted from this direction *chuckle* But I was part of a social network that included all kinds of artists, I sat on various commitees , for what that was worth, and was active in organising gigs and stuff)
Right now, there's an intersting swing of the political pendulum in Britain, as i expect you've noticed. And to my own surprise, I've found that that the "Trotskyites " that the Labour party had purged from it's ranks are talking a whole lot more sense than anybody else is. I've even gone so far as to actually join the Socialist Party. Perhaps unnecessarily.
Well, ummm, there's a wall of text for ya, hmm? But I think it says it all, relatively succinctly.
-walkie
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It does too.
Socialism does work. Not anywhere. It's not that all of its principles are bad but rather itself like saying to a guest, "Do you like pepper on your meal"and if they agree, you give them a plate comprised of only pepper.
I do not like identity politics. Inserts in my mind bigotry. Show me a guy person and you've shown me a guy person, shown an autistic person, and you've shown an autistic person, et. No one person represents their group. Every one is a unique individual. There is no moral comparisons merit comparison between these groups, so identity politics is bullshit, PC policing is bullshit. So is morality pandering.
The Social Justice thing is complete bullshit. It's selling a false set of goods
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Socialism does work. Not anywhere. It's not that all of its principles are bad but rather itself like saying to a guest, "Do you like pepper on your meal"and if they agree, you give them a plate comprised of only pepper.
I
You missed out the word "not", but I get what you mean.
Capitalism doesn't work either (Do you call this shit "working"?); and Socialism hasn'treally been tried, not on a large scale; it's been repeatedly subverted by autocrats like Stalin, and given a very bad name.
One thing I really like about Marx is that he recognised that Capitalism is more than just an ideology, it's a self- perpetuating social force. There is nobody in the driving seat. Capitalism can only run on and run on until it crashes, very nastily. That won't be much fun for anyone, but maybe, just maybe, we can build something better from the wreckage.
Maybe that's when we get to find out if Socialism really can work on a large-scale. *shrugs* . That's very iffy, granted, because human nature always turns out to be its own worst enemy, thus far :(
-Walkie
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I used to consider myself a Liberal. Not the "Progressive Liberals" that infest Liberalism now but rather a classic Liberal.
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In the meantime I am firmly on the fence
I pretty much agree although I've called myself Libertarian ever since high school.
I did go through a conservative phase prior to joining the Marines but it wore off towards the end of my enlistment.
The Marines is where I learned to hate authoritarianism.
Now, I'm simply against it no matter what form it takes whether that be religion, PC/SJWism, fascism, communism, etc...
I guess you could say that I'm philosophically an Anarchist but as we all know, Anarchism doesn't actually work. You have to make compromises with human nature and reality and where you end up is somewhere on the Libertarian spectrum.
The one thing I would disagree with is this notion of "sitting on the fence" or being "centrist". To me this fence is an artificial construct of "left" vs "right" and I just don't see politics in that way. I may be a centrist by default though since I see both sides as being equally full of shit.
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In the meantime, i was inwardly trying to solve the World's problwems, like we do, ,and come up with some sort of realistic. workable and fair social system. Unbejknownst to myself, i was reinventing Marxism :rofl: . So, if I'm honest, I really have to call myself left-wing , don't I?
Utopianism never works, as a matter of fact it tends to produce the opposite effect because in order to try to implement it, you need a powerful, centralized authoritarian system to implement it. As soon as that structure is created, those in power turn it to their own ends. The temptation of power is just too great. As the saying goes: "Any government powerful enough to give you anything you want has the power to take everything you have".
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(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AKXlhpeb6wI/hqdefault.jpg)
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In the meantime, i was inwardly trying to solve the World's problwems, like we do, ,and come up with some sort of realistic. workable and fair social system. Unbejknownst to myself, i was reinventing Marxism :rofl: . So, if I'm honest, I really have to call myself left-wing , don't I?
Utopianism never works, as a matter of fact it tends to produce the opposite effect because in order to try to implement it, you need a powerful, centralized authoritarian system to implement it. As soon as that structure is created, those in power turn it to their own ends. The temptation of power is just too great. As the saying goes: "Any government powerful enough to give you anything you want has the power to take everything you have".
That's where Anarchism comes in, IMO.
And I don't mean Punk-Rock-in-it-for-the-kicks-dunno -what-it-means-but-it sounds -like-fun Anarchism
And I don't mean Let's-kill-the-Socialists-and- let-the-industrialists-exercise-their-right-to-exploit-people Anarchism
And I don't mean Beat-up-any-guy-who-tries -to -moderate-Intensity-squared Anarchism either
I mean-grown-up-thought-about-it-read about-it-know what-we-want-and-why we-want-it , ready-to-compromise-where-necessary Anarchism
That's something else that's never really been tried in recorded history AFIK, discounting a few hunter-gather societies.
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In the meantime, i was inwardly trying to solve the World's problwems, like we do, ,and come up with some sort of realistic. workable and fair social system. Unbejknownst to myself, i was reinventing Marxism :rofl: . So, if I'm honest, I really have to call myself left-wing , don't I?
Utopianism never works, as a matter of fact it tends to produce the opposite effect because in order to try to implement it, you need a powerful, centralized authoritarian system to implement it. As soon as that structure is created, those in power turn it to their own ends. The temptation of power is just too great. As the saying goes: "Any government powerful enough to give you anything you want has the power to take everything you have".
That's where Anarchism comes in, IMO.
And I don't mean Punk-Rock-in-it-for-the-kicks-dunno -what-it-means-but-it sounds -like-fun Anarchism
And I don't mean Let's-kill-the-Socialists-and- let-the-industrialists-exercise-their-right-to-exploit-people Anarchism
And I don't mean Beat-up-any-guy-who-tries -to -moderate-Intensity-squared Anarchism either
I mean-grown-up-thought-about-it-read about-it-know what-we-want-and-why we-want-it , ready-to-compromise-where-necessary Anarchism
That's something else that's never really been tried in recorded history AFIK, discounting a few hunter-gather societies.
As I said, I'm a philosophical Anarchist. If you're talking about voluntary socialism, I'm all for it because it doesn't involve the iron fist of government. I don't see it working on a large scale though because it's difficult to incentivize and keep people from cheating the system.
I lean towards minarchism but I do believe that the government should be the cop of the banks, investors and corporations. After the 2008 meltdown, those groups have shown that they can't be trusted.
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As I said, I'm a philosophical Anarchist. If you're talking about voluntary socialism, I'm all for it because it doesn't involve the iron fist of government. I don't see it working on a large scale though because it's difficult to incentivize and keep people from cheating the system.
I lean towards minarchism but I do believe that the government should be the cop of the banks, investors and corporations. After the 2008 meltdown, those groups have shown that they can't be trusted.
Yeah, voluntary socialism is part of what I mean, but I'm still groping-in-the-dark, as we all are, because what actually works in practice is going to emerge from a long process of trial-and-error , isn't it? If it ever gets the chance to emerge at all. I don't believe that anyone should ever tie themselves to any particular dogma. Ideals are made for man. not man for ideals,
But it seems pretty clear to me that any form of anarchism that allows for untrammelled capitalism is an oxymoron effectively. Wealth is power, and that power will be, and is being used to oppress the less-powerful, and increasingly rob them of automony.
It's not just the banks that can't be trusted. No hierarchical system can be trusted, whether state-owned or privately-owned, it all obeys the law of "scum rises". People are much , much better, by-and-large than the political systems we create. I want some kind of system that brings out the best in us , rather than the worst. Don't we all? Besides that, I think that both principles of Socialism, and the principles of Anarchism are key to devising such a system.
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I think that it is like creating a meal. Right ingredients and amounts of. There IS room for a few socialist ideas, there is absolutely room for the strong and solid traditional vales of Conservative and the Classic Liberal ties to exploring modern philosophy and expression and new values, as well as the Libertarian freedoms
The problem is getting the right amounts of these things and mixing it together
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I normally score in the moderately liberal range.
I really believe in personal freedom and equality for all...but I don't feel you should have to do back flips to accommodate everyone's butt hurt in life.
Basically I think the whole world is bat shit crazy some days and I don't care who says what...I'm too busy trying to survive my own reality, probably not yours and most of the time definitely, not theirs.
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I think that it is like creating a meal. Right ingredients and amounts of. There IS room for a few socialist ideas, there is absolutely room for the strong and solid traditional vales of Conservative and the Classic Liberal ties to exploring modern philosophy and expression and new values, as well as the Libertarian freedoms
The problem is getting the right amounts of these things and mixing it together
Has the perfect recipe ever been accomplished?
I think it is at least as possible that a group of monkeys with a box of watch parts can come up with a watch that works.
We already have all the parts. How do we make it ALL work together?
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I really believe in personal freedom and equality for all...but I don't feel you should have to do back flips to accommodate everyone's butt hurt in life.
Heck, It's not even possible to accomodate everybody's butt hurt. I've noticed time and again that the people who demand that backflipping have singled out some particular minority (sometimes just a minority of one) to accommodate, and they are totally vicious towards everybody else. I figure it would save a whole lot of butthurt very simply and cheaply if we all just taped their mouths up.
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Censorship is not the solution, growing a thicker skin is.
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Censorship is not the solution, growing a thicker skin is.
... and ya know, a One Way door or Exit Only sign on that butt would not hurt either.
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Censorship is not the solution, growing a thicker skin is.
Er , just to be clear, i was advocating taping up the CJW's mouths, not anybody elses's. Since they are the ones who care so much about butthurt, and they are the ones causing most of it, seems only fair and rational to me.
Anyway, my skin is thick enough already , especially at the top end .
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I think that it is like creating a meal. Right ingredients and amounts of. There IS room for a few socialist ideas, there is absolutely room for the strong and solid traditional vales of Conservative and the Classic Liberal ties to exploring modern philosophy and expression and new values, as well as the Libertarian freedoms
The problem is getting the right amounts of these things and mixing it together
Has the perfect recipe ever been accomplished?
I think it is at least as possible that a group of monkeys with a box of watch parts can come up with a watch that works.
We already have all the parts. How do we make it ALL work together?
Never and it never will be.
I think the best a country can do is elect someone with a basic foundation in one party but some other strong views outside of the party lines.
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Censorship is not the solution, growing a thicker skin is.
Er , just to be clear, i was advocating taping up the CJW's mouths, not anybody elses's. Since they are the ones who care so much about butthurt, and they are the ones causing most of it, seems only fair and rational to me.
Anyway, my skin is thick enough already , especially at the top end .
I think that they need a dose of what they dish out to others. "okay you organised a campaign to write nasty letters to this person's workplace to get him fired and to the police to get him investigated and arrested? How about we start slamming your business in every review sites and slam it on social media?"
They like it far better when the shoe is on the other foot. Same with college students doing the screaming demands. Say "No, and we no longer wish to have you agitators here"
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Yeah, our Universities need to be purged of these self-righteous censorious assholes.
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Yeah, our Universities need to be purged of these self-righteous censorious assholes.
But, seriously: over-retaliation could result in some important human rights going down the tubes. Some part of me would surely love to pay back the self-righteous pricks, but how could I achieve that without becoming a self-righteous prick in my own right, and sertting a dangerous precedent ?
It's a nice fantasy, but I don't really fancy the reality.
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Actually, the only real cure for prejudice is education, right? So , applying that principle to the SJW's how can we cure them of their prejudice? Hmm. well, didn't Phililip Roth (was it?) write a book about a University lecturer who gets hounded out off his job etc, all on account of his innocent mis-use of the word "ghost" ? Make them read that book, then write an essay about it, for starters. Don't throw them out of the colleges, chain them to their desks, until they get it.
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Yeah, our Universities need to be purged of these self-righteous censorious assholes.
But, seriously: over-retaliation could result in some important human rights going down the tubes. Some part of me would surely love to pay back the self-righteous pricks, but how could I achieve that without becoming a self-righteous prick in my own right, and sertting a dangerous precedent ?
Good question.
I'd be in favor of a 3 strikes you're out policy, depending on the severity of what they did.
That way at least you're giving them a chance to learn proper behavior.