INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Semicolon on July 17, 2014, 08:59:48 PM
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A Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 295 people has crashed in east Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
There are no signs of survivors at the scene of the crash near the village of Grabovo, in rebel-held territory close to the border with Russia.
Both sides in Ukraine's civil conflict accused each other of shooting down the plane with a missile. It is still not clear why the plane came down.
It is the second disaster suffered by Malaysia Airlines this year.
Flight MH370 disappeared en route from Malaysia to China in March and still has not been found.
At a news conference at Schiphol airport, Malaysia Airlines' European chief Huib Gorter said they were still trying to identify some of the passengers from flight MH17.
He said of the passengers that have been identified there were:
- 154 Dutch nationals, 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians
- Six Britons, four Germans, four Belgians, three from the Philippines and one Canadian
- All 15 of the crew were Malaysian
Other airlines have announced they are now avoiding eastern Ukraine.
Source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28354856)
It seems like a bad idea to fly on any Malaysian airplane nowadays.
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I was thinking the same thing, I wonder what kinda deals you'll be able to get on their tickets :zoinks:
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Why is this being called a crash?
Other airlines have announced they are now avoiding eastern Ukraine.
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it is a shootdown
USA said there would be "hell to pay"
well, according to American standards for shooting down civilian airliners, "hell to pay" means to deny all responsability, and pay a "gift" recompensation of 150-300K to each of the bereaved families.
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It is important to note that in recent weeks there have been a number of Ukraine Cargo and military jets shot down by Russian Separatists in that area.
Just before news of the passenger jet broke there were several posts made on social media by the separatists celebrating another one. These were removed immediately as they realised they had shot down a civilian aircraft. Sky news recovered some of the posts by using the 'cache' system.
In a nutshell then, it looks like the Russians supplied the equipment (must have been 'heavy duty' to bring down a plane at 33 thousand feet) to separatists who either weren't trained properly or simply mistook the plane to be Ukraine military.
Pockets of air space are labelled and this one had a warning 'strongly advised not to enter' to European flight companies. However Malaysia have said that the air space was approved and used by all Asian flight companies. ?? Seems contradictory and would suggest room for improvement on how air space is labelled.
It is a human tragedy and the nationality of all passengers is not confirmed. It appears to be mostly Dutch, Australian and British. It is very sad that 100 were children or infants.
I cannot see how Malaysian Airlines can maintain business after this. They must have law suits left right and centre.
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I was thinking the same thing, I wonder what kinda deals you'll be able to get on their tickets :zoinks:
Why not take a Malaysian vacation and find out? :zoinks:
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Makes me feel sad to think of what all those family members and friends are going through.. hearing about their close-ones being ja, killed.
What a lousy thing those bastards did.
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Oh no. Just heard reports about the crash scene. Personal belongings, watches, credit cards etc being 'taken' from the scene.
Crash site not secured yet and already black box is gone and body parts are being searched for valuables. Sick. :thumbdn:
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There is some pretty hellish footage on Live Leak
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Oh no. Just heard reports about the crash scene. Personal belongings, watches, credit cards etc being 'taken' from the scene.
Crash site not secured yet and already black box is gone and body parts are being searched for valuables. Sick. :thumbdn:
UGH.
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BBQ!
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BBQ!
:aff:
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?
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Oh no. Just heard reports about the crash scene. Personal belongings, watches, credit cards etc being 'taken' from the scene.
Crash site not secured yet and already black box is gone and body parts are being searched for valuables. Sick. :thumbdn:
:(
That's a shame.
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I only hope there will be justice for this evil deed.
It's bad enough that the passengers and crew were innocent, but it always gets me when children are involved in a tragedy.
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I only hope there will be justice for this evil deed.
Probably wont be.
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?
nice graph but Why in the name of Fuck are these images ALWAYS sized down!? I don't care about bandwidth or whatever concern they might be fearing from a jpg 2 cms bigger than another, what's their problem, is it fashion? Peer pressure? Why!?
As soon as text is readable, some ass comes crashing through the window to re-size it "THERE!!! Now it's difficult to read the captions! In fact, crop it, so that it becomes slightly more incomplete! MY JOB HERE IS DONE!!!"
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I sniped it off facebook. They always size em down for some damn reason.
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worst is conceptual maps, with captions - where the whole point is what each explanative caption says, and its like
bla da herpy derp, very informative meng!
The reason it pisses me off is cus it shows an attitude of "SURELY :0" "SURELY nobody cares!" "SURELY this is boring bla-bla-bla to everyone else, like it is to me!" "SURELY this map is full of confusing colors and borders, very complicated, SURELY nobody else will understand it either, regardless of text!"
"SURELY nobody out there can comprehend more than I can!"
I remember back in the day
when I grew up
I took for granted that _EVERYONE_ knew more than I did.
Those were the days!
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I only hope there will be justice for this evil deed.
Probably wont be.
Will be a political game I think.
And justice, that would mean getting the four who operated the shooting down. The ones who backed them up and the looters. So, few looters, as a token of justice?
Lots of civilians in the separatist area are traumatised by the dropping of people from the skies. And deeply upset and grieving with the relatives of the killed passengers.
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The plane crashes that i have known about, worldwide, have always led to whatever country doing all it can to repatriate the dead and be considerate to those who have lost loved ones.
I have never known a situation like this before. Currently there are a number of bodies on board a train. The train won't leave because Russian separatists won't let it.
It is hard to tell if Putin is doing all he can. The world has been quick to point a finger, myself included. It is possible the rocket launcher used to shoot down the plane was taken by the separatists from a Ukraine military base. There is no evidence proving it was gifted from Russia.
The more i see of these Russian Separatists the more i wonder if they are controllable by Putin. They seem so out of order. They are lacking integrity, and the humanity that we normally see when innocent lives are lost. These poor souls, a hundred of them just children were not enemies of the separatists, or Russia. There are many elements to this crash site, and a need for investigations, but this is the human side - allowing people to have proper funerals. Not allowing this is just amplifying the suffering.
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Bodie, the pro-russians are not guided by Russia, they are far too incompetent for that.
What is true, is that in the initial stages of this, they were heavily supplied. There were also a lot of actual Russian fighters there - elite fighters - people who knew what they were doing, such as the "Cossacks" who fought Chechen rebels for years and years. Hardened warriors.
Now, here is a thought for you: Notice how quickly we all let Crimea go. See?
This was never about Russia occupying eastern Ukraine, but Crimea. Causing, fueling, supplying rebellion in eastern Ukraine is a diversion. Now, you may want to refuse to accept that diversions exist in reality, many people do :D "surely, no nation would do something that complex, that cynical!" - either way, the situation works _perfectly_ as a diversion.
The rebels are basically derping around, they "won ground" by simply TELLING Ukrainian police etc to fuck off, and they did fuck off at the time, cus they thought the rebels had the Russian Army behind them. They didn't.
Ukraine finally cought on, and are now steamrolling the rebels, sending actual proper military, aerial bombardment, artillery shelling, tanks, APCs, special forces, etc etc, the rebels are being pounded to shit.
What's even MORE convenient (for Russia) is that Ukraine will be quite busy with their eastern region for years and years to come - too much blood has been spilled, people hate each others now, there is armed separatism, bad blood, vengeance, etc. To go back to prioritize Crimea will be a huge waste of effort, from now on and decades to come.
The rebels still have Russian ties, and quite possibly light supplies, but it seems like Russia is "phasing out" their direct involvement there. (There are still Russian volunteer fighters, nationalists, etc)
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Yes i can see your point. I think Putin also enjoys to play the game "guess how much Russia is backing the separatists?" he just basks in the limelight.
I think if he had such tight control over them he would have seen to it that those bodies were on the way home by now. He could have looked the hero he likes to be.
I just want to say about reports of bodies been dragged around fields in an undignified manner. I have not seen this. I saw two farmers/locals moving a body in a body bag and then it was lifted on the back of a truck. One man was at least 6ft while the other was possibly a youth, very much smaller. The removal was as dignified as it could possibly have been. There was no hearse and no one in top hat and tails. These things are normally not televised but the unique nature of this tragedy means it was. The dead have never, to my knowledge, magically removed themselves into a nice neat coffin.
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It is not easy to gain accurate insight into the what the separatists are doing because the traditional routes of info, like the news seem to grab one angle and exploit the fuck out of it. There is little difference in the 'news' between sky, BBC and all the other 'independent' ones.
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I haven't heard of any undignified treatment of the airplane victims, and like you, I've only seen desperate locals trying their best to treat the bodies with care, as you say, whatever care they can.
And yes, not to be a fan-girl, but I like the Vice dispatches (they count 60 by now), because they are very blunt and to the point, they remind a bit about Euronews' "No comment" section, except - there is commentary :D
But notice one thing, when watching a Vice dispatch: Try to count other journalists, in the sticky spots where Vice travels. Seldom will you see anybody else, and that says a bit about their journalism.
Vice is also the only (afaik) western reporters to visit South Sudan, going to the civil war front lines, as well as to Western Sahara, and such forgotten places. I have a lot of respect for them. I hope they stay true. It is only in the past few years they have been this capable of following big events, it seems they have managed to accumulate a lot of funds as of late.
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What I read in the papers, I have deep respect for the people living in the area of the disaster.
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Amidst all the political posturing, the Malaysians have negotiated with the separatists and it seems the demands of the west are being met. The bodies are now moving, the black boxes are being handed over and investigations are now under way.
STFU Mr Cameron, Mr Obama and Mr Putin.
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Interesting development. I thought the Russians had aquired the black box. Maybe I misunderstood, and the rebels had picked it up - and were going to/urged to deliver it to the Russians.
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I had heard that too. That black boxes were in Moscow.
or so it seemed. ???
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No, no, no.. (replying to some here).. in the end Putin, mark my words, is full-on responsible for killing almost 300 totally innocent people. Almost a third were children.. more than half Dutch folk. He gave the okay indirectly 'to missile down' the aeroplane. Flight MH17. That is what happened.
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No, no, no.. (replying to some here).. in the end Putin, mark my words, is full-on responsible for killing almost 300 totally innocent people. Almost a third were children.. more than half Dutch folk. He gave the okay indirectly 'to missile down' the aeroplane. Flight MH17. That is what happened.
You shouldn't go around giving the impression that you know something the rest of the world is not sure of, then go "mark my words" and "that is what happened."
if you are THAT blunt about it, please post the sources which guarantee that this was the case. You seem to guarantee it, but you are just an internet-user. I want to see the actual guarantee, or I'm going to completely ignore your input here.
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:cbc:
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The plane crashes that i have known about, worldwide, have always led to whatever country doing all it can to repatriate the dead and be considerate to those who have lost loved ones.
I have never known a situation like this before. Currently there are a number of bodies on board a train. The train won't leave because Russian separatists won't let it.
It is hard to tell if Putin is doing all he can. The world has been quick to point a finger, myself included. It is possible the rocket launcher used to shoot down the plane was taken by the separatists from a Ukraine military base. There is no evidence proving it was gifted from Russia.
The more i see of these Russian Separatists the more i wonder if they are controllable by Putin. They seem so out of order. They are lacking integrity, and the humanity that we normally see when innocent lives are lost. These poor souls, a hundred of them just children were not enemies of the separatists, or Russia. There are many elements to this crash site, and a need for investigations, but this is the human side - allowing people to have proper funerals. Not allowing this is just amplifying the suffering.
I agree Bodie...the inhumanity is peculiar and stinks of bureaucracy. They may have been mercenaries.
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Just so we're clear, I'm not disagreeing with you Lutra, in fact, you are probably right. But you really should not be saying "mark my words!" and such, with these high-stakes political events. There is a certain protocol :D Or you won't be taken seriously.
It's like saying "just trust me!" in a science discussion, it's a no-dice, you must offer something more - or be more humble in your wording.
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Not sure if we'll actually find out what took place beyond the fact that the plane was shot down.
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The Russians like to keep things shhhhhhhh
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Always. Which is things aren't always what they seem. Keeping things quiet is a way of life.
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Australian diplomacy helped a bit. There will be an international investigation, and a local cease fire.
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Putin's personal web page at the Kremlin
http://eng.putin.kremlin.ru/bio (http://eng.putin.kremlin.ru/bio)
Worth a look. Kind of interesting.
in his 1956 Volga :o
(http://eng.putin.kremlin.ru/static/img/putin/interests/11.png)
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You're right, Zegh. I should've been more humble in my wording. I expressed my gut feeling there. This drama frustrates a lot of people.. mea incluis.
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Personally I think the Russians are at least partly responsible, simply by providing the weapons and the training. I'm afraid it might be more than that, though.
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You are angry. People died. Innocent children died. It is mind blowing stuff.
I blamed 'Putin' too, initially. Or rather i suspected he had something to do with it.
He probably has but i don't think for one minute he gave an ok to shoot down passenger jet MH17. If there was an 'ok' it came from Alexander Borodai. It would have been an 'ok' to shoot down a Ukrainian military cargo jet, as they had done weeks earlier.
The word 'accident' doesn't really fit very well for what happened. I don't know of a word that does. However i am sure MH17 wasn't intentionally targeted.
That doesn't make it ok. Russia has previous as does the US. That still doesn't mean that Putin goes around shooting down passenger jets.
So, what was Putin's involvement? I would say a loose connection. He has helped Borodai for sure. He sent arms and finances at the start. I don't think so much lately. Did he supply the BUK surface to air missile? I doubt we will ever know as it could have been stolen from the Ukrainians.
Therefore i think it is fair to say it is possible that Putin has some blood on his hands. I doubt we will ever know.
The only point i want to make is this: 56 Ukrainians went down in a military/ cargo plane in exactly the same way only weeks before. Those lives are just as important, just as meaningful as the Dutch, Malaysian, Australian and British lives on MH17. Didn't even make the news over here!
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Is it a coincidence that the Home Secretary announces a full, judge led, independent enquiry into the death of Litvinenko today. They say the timing is just a coincidence, but i doubt it. There is a lot of anger at Russia at the moment.
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You're right, Zegh. I should've been more humble in my wording. I expressed my gut feeling there. This drama frustrates a lot of people.. mea incluis.
I noticed when you said "lots of dutch people", it is understandable, when things hit "close to home" it's easy to lose ones cool. My calculated pragmatism went out the window after Utøya, "DEATH PENALTY FOR THE MURDERER O_-"
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Is it a coincidence that the Home Secretary announces a full, judge led, independent enquiry into the death of Litvinenko today. They say the timing is just a coincidence, but i doubt it. There is a lot of anger at Russia at the moment.
How long has it been since then? That's quite a wait.
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Is it a coincidence that the Home Secretary announces a full, judge led, independent enquiry into the death of Litvinenko today. They say the timing is just a coincidence, but i doubt it. There is a lot of anger at Russia at the moment.
How long has it been since then? That's quite a wait.
He died in 2006. November i think. so yes, an enquiry on this level would normally have been done by now.
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Is it a coincidence that the Home Secretary announces a full, judge led, independent enquiry into the death of Litvinenko today. They say the timing is just a coincidence, but i doubt it. There is a lot of anger at Russia at the moment.
How long has it been since then? That's quite a wait.
He died in 2006. November i think. so yes, an enquiry on this level would normally have been done by now.
He must have been using the NHS. :zoinks:
The question should be why it wasn't done before now. :tinfoil:
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Poisoned with polonium and then a bed on the nhs? dastardly rotten luck. Poor bloke.
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I read something in the paper about this today which seemed to indicate that the US advisors want to hold Putin accountable and blame him almost entirely, but that international pressure is pending European reaction, because apparently Europe is addicted to Russian oil.
So I guess its up to the EU what happens with the investigation. Australia and USA seem to have no qualms about it.
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I think the British Gov are hypocrites to push for sanctions. There have been many a dirty ruble washed in London. Wealthy Russians own 10% of London property! And if we are going to talk about supplies of weapons... i think Britain have much blood on hands too.
I have not seen any definitive proof that connects Russia to MH17. Whatever happened to being innocent until proven guilty?
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I think the British Gov are hypocrites to push for sanctions. There have been many a dirty ruble washed in London. Wealthy Russians own 10% of London property! And if we are going to talk about supplies of weapons... i think Britain have much blood on hands too.
I have not seen any definitive proof that connects Russia to MH17. Whatever happened to being innocent until proven guilty?
Aren't the 'mericans saying that there is proof?
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No, the latest of their intelligence reports says the missile was fired from an area in East Ukraine held by the separatists but they have found nothing that links the Russians directly.
If you are going to impose a punishment on a country then i don't think hearsay, or what folk 'think' probably went on is grounds to do so. There needs to be some kind of definitive proof, the kind that you would need to present in a court of law.
If there is nothing to link Russia to the murders of the passengers on MH17 then there is no case. The EU could return to its train of thought about some half hearted watery sanctions they were mulling over because of Russian actions prior to MH17. The truth, the blunt truth is that no one really cared that much about Ukraine prior to this event. Not enough to really hurt Russia. Too much gas going to Germany.
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Fair enough. I do agree with you that they are innocent until proven guilty.
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If 'guilt by association' is fair then i would like to ask Mr Cameron about all the British Commonwealth countries who still outlaw gays and still marry off 12 year old girls, etc etc.
..and about the £35billion arms we export to Moscow, etc. etc.
Sorry, it doesn't take much to piss me off about the current gov. >:(
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I bet Mr Cameron would tell you it's not the same thing at all.
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Undoubtedly. Like it wasn't the same when he wanted to arm Syrian Rebels. Or the arms America sold the IRA, allegedly.
He enjoys a good game of 'lets pick who the terrorists are from the freedom fighters'. He is such a hypocrite.
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Be as it may, I do hope those responsible are brought to justice.
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So do I. It was murder. But do you consider that to be the operator of the equipment, the one who told him to, or whoever supplied that equipment? It is a big question.
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The operator but especially the one who gave the order. Possibly also the one who provided the weapons, depending on when.
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I agree about the one who gave the order. Not so sure about the supplier, but maybe. Although they were not used in the way the supplier thought they would be. :dunno:
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If the Russians supplied the separatists with missiles, yes, I do think they should be blamed. We're talking about shooting down a Boeing 777, a passenger jet easily distinguishable from a military plane. You don't even have to possess military hardware to recognise it as a civilian aircraft. You do need some basic training to know what to do with the destructive power you've been provided with, however, but if the Russians did provide, I bet they skipped that particular lesson. There was no time.
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(if they did) They didn't supply it for the purpose of shooting down a passenger jet. The 'misuse' was by the user.
If I sold a gun to someone who told me they would hunt with it, and then that person killed someone with it am i responsible? I would likely feel an amount of responsibility, but the person i sold it to would bear the brunt.
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It's weirdm a week later, over 40 of the passengers haven't been identified. What sort of airline are those people running if they don't even know who's on the plane?
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It's weirdm a week later, over 40 of the passengers haven't been identified. What sort of airline are those people running if they don't even know who's on the plane?
You're weirdm. :hahaha:
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Aren't the 'mericans saying that there is proof?
Because what the Americans have to say about it is the most important part. :zoinks:
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BBQ!
:aff:
Well, you can't eat it raw!
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It's weirdm a week later, over 40 of the passengers haven't been identified. What sort of airline are those people running if they don't even know who's on the plane?
All names were page wide in newspapers. The names of the passengers are known, identification of what body belongs to what name is another thing.
40 bodies have been brought to the Netherlands yesterday. It was impressive, a solemn ceremony, 40 coffins carried into hearses, massive row of funeral cars driving the bodies to where identification will happen. And that is only the beginning. More than six times as many bodies are still to come here.
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Saw that. All the hearses. It was impressive. Very dignified.
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(if they did) They didn't supply it for the purpose of shooting down a passenger jet. The 'misuse' was by the user.
If I sold a gun to someone who told me they would hunt with it, and then that person killed someone with it am i responsible? I would likely feel an amount of responsibility, but the person i sold it to would bear the brunt.
Of course the misuse was by the user, but the weapon provided was a bit more advanced than a gun and the targets a bit less obvious.
So let's consider the gun analogy. What if there was no obvious way to tell the difference between a deer and a human? What if the way to do it had to be taught to the user by the provider, but the provider had knowingly neglected to do it? In a best-case scenario, the seller might simply have been thinking that the risk wasn't all that great, but he might also have ignored the risk for any number of other reasons, including some fairly worrying ones. Money, political reasons, you name it.
Which is what I am talking about.
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Aren't the 'mericans saying that there is proof?
Because what the Americans have to say about it is the most important part. :zoinks:
The Americans *and* the Russians. :M
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It's weirdm a week later, over 40 of the passengers haven't been identified. What sort of airline are those people running if they don't even know who's on the plane?
All names were page wide in newspapers. The names of the passengers are known, identification of what body belongs to what name is another thing.
Maybe just misread it then, and identifying bodies was the intended meaning. Haven't read a single article that appears to account for everyone on the plane.
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I agree they should share a proportionate amount of blame. International sanctions is one way. However an awful lot of other countries have done similar things, including UK.
I think it will, inevitably be a warning to all countries to think about who they supply weapons to.
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It's weirdm a week later, over 40 of the passengers haven't been identified. What sort of airline are those people running if they don't even know who's on the plane?
All names were page wide in newspapers. The names of the passengers are known, identification of what body belongs to what name is another thing.
Maybe just misread it then, and identifying bodies was the intended meaning. Haven't read a single article that appears to account for everyone on the plane.
I think the passenger list is undisputed. The plane wouldn't have been allowed to leave otherwise.
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I agree they should share a proportionate amount of blame. International sanctions is one way. However an awful lot of other countries have done similar things, including UK.
I think it will, inevitably be a warning to all countries to think about who they supply weapons to.
One may hope. Realistically, however, next week's headlines will probably drown the public outcry and nothing will change.
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It's weirdm a week later, over 40 of the passengers haven't been identified. What sort of airline are those people running if they don't even know who's on the plane?
All names were page wide in newspapers. The names of the passengers are known, identification of what body belongs to what name is another thing.
Maybe just misread it then, and identifying bodies was the intended meaning. Haven't read a single article that appears to account for everyone on the plane.
I think the passenger list is undisputed. The plane wouldn't have been allowed to leave otherwise.
That makes sense.
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After 9/11, there have been very few problems of that nature. The security checks are rigorous. I remember waiting on board a plane that wasn't allowed to clear the gate because of a passenger who missed the final call.
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Public outcry is a mighty thing, but yes it will subside.
What i hate is the way the International Community pick and choose. Old enemies like Russia are guilty without any evidence, and old allies like Israel continue with a war on little children.
:dunno:
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After 9/11, there have been very few problems of that nature. The security checks are rigorous. I remember waiting on board a plane that wasn't allowed to clear the gate because of a passenger who missed the final call.
That reminds me of a story.
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Public outcry is a mighty thing, but yes it will subside.
What i hate is the way the International Community pick and choose. Old enemies like Russia are guilty without any evidence, and old allies like Israel continue with a war on little children.
:dunno:
:(
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I don't know why but there is a big thing here about not being allowed on board unless your phone/ tablet is charged.
I can't imagine the peace of mind i would get in the air, being shot down, knowing that my ipad could be switched on. ???
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Apparently they fear that a new kind of bomb could be hidden inside a fake iPad or phone.
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Thinking that's smart; just making people show their devices are real. Electronic devices don't seem to be given much notice.
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So what to do about toy phones then? :tard:
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What I read in the papers, I have deep respect for the people living in the area of the disaster.
That respect, i believe, is reciprocated.
These are villagers from around the crash site. They gathered to hold an impromptu religious ceremony for the victims.
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bs9wauOCUAA5npL.jpg:medium)
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76455000/jpg/_76455566_76455565.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/22/article-2701981-1FE2D1DA00000578-752_634x464.jpg)
I am posting these pics because they are the first pics i have seen about MH17 that has softened the scowl on my face. I had a very teeny 'ahh' moment. They may be a rough looking bunch because, I am sure, life is not a stroll in the park for them. They gathered in their Sunday best with their home made floral tributes to pay their respects to those passengers who were complete strangers to them. No pomp, no fuss, they didn't invite the press. No money. They just wanted to do something for the victims.
This is my favourite picture.
(http://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-9.jpg?w=1090)
As she sobs into her roughly cut flowers. Her hands look like they have seen a few days of hard graft.
These ladies have vowed to return every year out of respect for the dead. These people are poor and have nothing to give but they managed to give so much.
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Innocent, shminnocent. We will bomb Russia because Putin is our nemesis.
lol tthats the merican mantra atm.
ok, slightly exaggerated.
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What I read in the papers, I have deep respect for the people living in the area of the disaster.
That respect, i believe, is reciprocated.
These are villagers from around the crash site. They gathered to hold an impromptu religious ceremony for the victims.
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bs9wauOCUAA5npL.jpg:medium)
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76455000/jpg/_76455566_76455565.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/22/article-2701981-1FE2D1DA00000578-752_634x464.jpg)
I am posting these pics because they are the first pics i have seen about MH17 that has softened the scowl on my face. I had a very teeny 'ahh' moment. They may be a rough looking bunch because, I am sure, life is not a stroll in the park for them. They gathered in their Sunday best with their home made floral tributes to pay their respects to those passengers who were complete strangers to them. No pomp, no fuss, they didn't invite the press. No money. They just wanted to do something for the victims.
This is my favourite picture.
(http://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-9.jpg?w=1090)
As she sobs into her roughly cut flowers. Her hands look like they have seen a few days of hard graft.
These ladies have vowed to return every year out of respect for the dead. These people are poor and have nothing to give but they managed to give so much.
Indeed. Photos of grieving Ukrainians have been in the newspapers here a lot.
Today there was an interview with a woman, her house damaged, because someone fell on it from above. She welcomed family of the victims to come and grief, they could stay in her bed if need be. That is, if her house would still be standing, she had no idea, with this war going on.
A major of a town was looking for reliable ways to get personal belongings back to where they had to be. He had taken them to keep them safe, to make sure that they could be returned to family. It was no looting what he had done, it was keeping safe. He also hoped relatives would be allowed to come over and grief.
I think it would be good and healing, both for the relatives of the people who got killed, as for the people living in the crash-area.
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Yes i think it would be good for both parties. I hope the powers that be will make it happen for those who want to.
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So what to do about toy phones then? :tard:
I think they'll show up as toys in the X-ray scans. :P
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The picture of the grieving Ukrainian lady is heart-breaking. :(
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So what to do about toy phones then? :tard:
I think they'll show up as toys in the X-ray scans. :P
but the fake ones with bombs won't? :zoinks:
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The picture of the grieving Ukrainian lady is heart-breaking. :(
Agreed. She is a gem.
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The picture of the grieving Ukrainian lady is heart-breaking. :(
Agreed. She is a gem.
I am sure the grieving Ukrainians bring much comfort to the families of the deceased. To know your loved ones are so honoured, even amidst the chaos, is a distraction from the horrid reality.
As for the villagers...I would imagine the facts are overwhelming. It is one thing living in a country which you know is politically strife....a person can adjust to the "drama" of their "laundry" because it is theirs...but it is another thing to know that your people's politics have reached out and harmed perfectly innocent, unconnected bystanders. Putting what was fckd up against a different backdrop makes it seem all the more fckd up. I have no doubt these kinds of tragedies occur among Ukrainians much more often...but it tends to get swallowed up in the rhetoric of political battles. That's just my guess...based on probability and the political response the world has received thus far.
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So what to do about toy phones then? :tard:
I think they'll show up as toys in the X-ray scans. :P
but the fake ones with bombs won't? :zoinks:
That's right. :M
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Yesterday I sat for like 4 consecutive hours, stoned, sleep deprived, and just-rewatched the wtc event on youtube, looked for amateur unedited footage, with all the "oh my fucking god D:" and stuff
I think an exercise like that, once every few months, is good for your health.
Think back to the ages that created us, death and destruction was something we had to deal with intimately, not just brush aside.
It's too much tho, too damn much, sometimes my mind overloads, I try to really "get there" if you will, like, okay, be that one poor schmuck in a seat ":0"
over New York
or over Donetsk
and that's it.
That was you.
And it's real, and it has all the unexpected shit, but when it happens, you know, like, eh... have you ever been knocked out cold. Remember the unexpectedness of it? The ringing in the ears, the "Bwooooooooooooooooo!!!" sound-overpowering everything, the metallic spasms in your body, whatever it was
That shit will most definitely happen, if you explode in a plane - even for just a blink
THEN!
I try, with my head, to multiply that - hey - gotta be accurate, how many were it now? 260 passengers?
Holy fuck!
One time, I was high, sleep-deprived, I heard on "air crash investigators" behind me, on tv, it was just a buzzing, I was so out of it, but I suddenly heard the voice go "and one hundred and forty passengers are dead!" and bam, for a moment I auto-visualized being mr. passenger, and all the unexpectedness hitting me like a wall, I almost fell out, I had to lean on my desk, I got all woozy, cold sweatting, ringing in my ears, had to lay there and take deep breaths :I
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on second thought, I'm not sure how super-healthy it is, and I was going somewhere with our ancestors living through this on a more regular and intimate basis but yeah, eh, they made it here, right :M
AND dysfunctional as they were, fucking neanderthals, killing indonesian "hobbits" en masse, probably eating them, they got us here - and WE dysfunctional as WE are will get us ONWARD no goddamn matter what - WITH banking empires or without them but probably with cus we are helpless idiots like that "shiny! =D"
we ARE Mordor!
WE are "the evil locust" alien of the future, it is US! WE will come down on foreign civilizations, too ground-bound to put up any kind of resistance against our mass-multiplying rage - and not one colony mind you - no no no, OBSERVE! Everything about humanity is exponential - it's self multiplying, it is our drive!
As space-conquerers we will operate in an exponential number of exponentially growing fleets, always growing at an exponential rate! We will be dogmatic because dogma drives us! We will overconsume because it drives us! We will slow down our own development to near stagnation, because it benefits the hive to not allow for anomalies. Humanity has always detested anomalies, secretly or openly.
So there!
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WE are "the evil locust"
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WE are "the evil locust"
Speak for yourself. :hahaha:
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Nah. We are not Mordor. We don't have a master plan.
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Nah. We are not Mordor. We don't have a master plan.
Jack and Zeg are still the evil locust. :zoinks:
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Nah. We are not Mordor. We don't have a master plan.
We work better without one
Evidence: Everywhere :]
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Nah. We are not Mordor. We don't have a master plan.
We work better without one
Evidence: Everywhere :]
Don't worry, I have a plan.
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Nah. We are not Mordor. We don't have a master plan.
We work better without one
Evidence: Everywhere :]
Actually we're just a bunch of orcs without a proper leader, too stupid to do anything but fight amongst ourselves.
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Nah. We are not Mordor. We don't have a master plan.
We work better without one
Evidence: Everywhere :]
Actually we're just a bunch of orcs without a proper leader, too stupid to do anything but fight amongst ourselves.
If you take a moment from being so generically dystopic, look at things that actually ARE organized:
Arms sales.
Do you REALLY think that we are randomly fighting? That wars are random?
Then how come wars always hit the "hot-spots" we expect them to?
These are "playgrounds" for war-toys. Designated places to do war!
This isn't tin-foil stuff. But some parts of politics is more organized than people like to think, and they're quick to eyeroll and go "conspiracy nut", if you suggest that some things are being done on purpose.
We don't "fight over religion", some do, but usually this is just a front.
Most people could not predict the Ukraine business. BUT SOME COULD! Anyone who has actually taken up a geography article or two in their lives, and read a bit about the region, could have foreseen this happening.
I'm not gonna go deeper into the economy ring of arms industries and money lending, but what I mean by my "we are mordor" rant is
1. We are not going to "get appropriately punished" biblical style, even atheists think this stupid crap "karma lol :0" "mother earth will punish us!" no. Nobody will punish us. We will persist, and we will likely survive the earth. We allready proved we can get OFF the planet. When push comes to shove, we are going to get off it if we have to.
2. We will NEVER "learn", this is another hippie-myth even atheists sometimes subscribe to - that some sunny day, humanity will wake up "enlightened", that we "finally get it", "OH I SEE: KILLING IS BAD" We know everything we need to know, and enlightenment is _never_ coming. "How can you say for sure?" cus it's random and abstract, it's like saying "King of Cheese is coming! How do YOU know he isn't?"
3. We will never "evolve", people think evolution is - not only magic - but benevolent, sentient magic - hey - kindov like "god", how fucking convenient! Hey evolution, heed my prayers - give us bigger brains, enlightenment, and take this little-toe away, you've been promising the lack of a little-toe for the past 150 000 years.
No. The lil-toe is there to stay and stay. If you understand anything about evolution, you'll understand that the little toe will only go away IF:
a. It starts killing people dead - leaving only those who, by mutation, was born without a little toe.
b. Women stops fucking people w a little toe, because they find it unsexy, leaving women selectively fucking ONLY those who- by mutation - are born without a little toe.
Our little toe will only disappear, if all people with the genes for a little toe, are killed and their genes thus stop polluting the rest of the gene pool.
Uneducated people go "NO! You don't know ANYTHING! Evolution is good and mercyful!"
In other words
Humanity will not change, will not learn, will not stop warring
Humanity will continue fighting, not "over religion" but for money, systematic fight-for-consumption, systematic fight-for-the-sake-of-armaments-contracts, over and over and over and over, again and again and again and again. Our wars are not some random dog-fight, but they are carefully planned events.
Human life means nothing to humanity, but the illusion of "sanctity" is kept up for the sake of comfort.
Consumerism is exponential, and part of the same machine. The more colorful, the more distracting, the better - and this is only being methodically perfected - biologically perfected! There is no way "out", only a spiralling plummet deeper and deeper :]
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Evil nihilistic locust are very poetic. :zoinks:
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Arms sales does not equal Mordor. We are like that, simple as that.
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The plan. Stick to the plan.
Btw, any update on this?
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Arms sales does not equal Mordor. We are like that, simple as that.
Odeon, dude, I was making a superficial comparison, I DO realize we do not live IN "Mordor", and that "Middle Earth" is not real, and that we are not Orcs
That's RIGHT! We are NOT Orcs! We are HOOMINS! Den y u claim we r Mordor den >;:O
Sigh...
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Arms sales does not equal Mordor. We are like that, simple as that.
Odeon, dude, I was making a superficial comparison, I DO realize we do not live IN "Mordor", and that "Middle Earth" is not real, and that we are not Orcs
That's RIGHT! We are NOT Orcs! We are HOOMINS! Den y u claim we r Mordor den >;:O
Sigh...
???
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Arms sales does not equal Mordor. We are like that, simple as that.
Odeon, dude, I was making a superficial comparison, I DO realize we do not live IN "Mordor", and that "Middle Earth" is not real, and that we are not Orcs
That's RIGHT! We are NOT Orcs! We are HOOMINS! Den y u claim we r Mordor den >;:O
Sigh...
???
Just my reaction to your aspie pragmatic correction of humanity not being Mordor, since
# Mordor is fictional
# Mordor is inhabited by orcs, humanity is inhabited by humans
# Mordor is ruled by Sauron, we are not
Dude, I _know all this_, I was offering a quick metaphor - the "dark invader", imagining humanity spreadding out into space - being "mordor"
"But Mordor didn't invade space, they invaded Middle Earth"
I KNOW... it's...
forget it :0
You're right, we are not Mordor :0
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'kay. :laugh: +