INTENSITY²
Start here => What's your crime? Basic Discussion => Topic started by: GalileoAce on March 05, 2010, 11:29:35 PM
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renaeden suggested I start this thread. Have at it.
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That avatar is weird looking. I know what that symbol means though.
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This is what I was:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.02/GenderTime/Past.png)
This is what I currently am:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.02/GenderTime/Present.png)
This is what I will be:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.02/GenderTime/Future.png)
A metaphor. Not literally.
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Awwww. I like the butterfly.
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This is what I was:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.02/GenderTime/Past.png)
This is what I currently am:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.02/GenderTime/Present.png)
This is what I will be:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.02/GenderTime/Future.png)
A metaphor. Not literally.
Hope you get there. Seriously. I know you are making a lot of effort in changing yourself. I know that must be something that impacts on near on everything around you and I am glad i have no need to do the same.
Just hope the idea of what you will end up at is going to be as good for you as the reality when you get there.
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Hope you get there. Seriously.
Thank you :)
I know you are making a lot of effort in changing yourself.
I've started seeing a speech therapist. Still seeing psychologist and psychiatrist, and endocrinologist and GP. Being trans is so expensive :(
I know that must be something that impacts on near on everything around you and I am glad i have no need to do the same.
Just hope the idea of what you will end up at is going to be as good for you as the reality when you get there.
As long as I'm seen as a female, socialised with as a female, I'll be happy. Getting there.
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Today I saw a guy in a shopping centre who looked very much like you, GA. As I watched him, I thought, "Is he happy in himself as a man? Or does he dream of some day breaking free of his biology, and becoming something other than the body he was born in?" In the past it would never have occurred to me to wonder. :)
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As long as I'm seen as a female, socialised with as a female, I'll be happy. Getting there.
That is what I mean in particular. What if down the end of the line you don't get this? What if despite your hormones and outfits and every best effort you don't get to be seen as a woman or socialised with as a woman? What then? Can't undo it or put it down to bad luck?
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Today I saw a guy in a shopping centre who looked very much like you, GA. As I watched him, I thought, "Is he happy in himself as a man? Or does he dream of some day breaking free of his biology, and becoming something other than the body he was born in?" In the past it would never have occurred to me to wonder. :)
I've broadened your mind?
As long as I'm seen as a female, socialised with as a female, I'll be happy. Getting there.
That is what I mean in particular. What if down the end of the line you don't get this? What if despite your hormones and outfits and every best effort you don't get to be seen as a woman or socialised with as a woman? What then? Can't undo it or put it down to bad luck?
What if? What if I get hit by a bus? What if I choke on my cereal tomorrow morning? Not going to stop me going out or eating breakfast. It's silly to let your life be ruled by what ifs and regrets. I'll seriously regret it if I don't transition, I'll always be wondering what could've been. And in any case, all indications are that I'll be able to pass well enough.
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Today I saw a guy in a shopping centre who looked very much like you, GA. As I watched him, I thought, "Is he happy in himself as a man? Or does he dream of some day breaking free of his biology, and becoming something other than the body he was born in?" In the past it would never have occurred to me to wonder. :)
I've broadened your mind?
As long as I'm seen as a female, socialised with as a female, I'll be happy. Getting there.
That is what I mean in particular. What if down the end of the line you don't get this? What if despite your hormones and outfits and every best effort you don't get to be seen as a woman or socialised with as a woman? What then? Can't undo it or put it down to bad luck?
What if? What if I get hit by a bus? What if I choke on my cereal tomorrow morning? Not going to stop me going out or eating breakfast. It's silly to let your life be ruled by what ifs and regrets. I'll seriously regret it if I don't transition, I'll always be wondering what could've been. And in any case, all indications are that I'll be able to pass well enough.
And THAT is why I say sincerely "Just hope the idea of what you will end up at is going to be as good for you as the reality when you get there."
It is not a putdown nor naysaying. It is meant. You have put up with a lot of shit and will continue to. You will have to cop most of it sweet. You will hurt some people by your actions and probably physically and emotionally go through hell over this.
To go through all of this I hope for your sake that you get where you have plotted your course. I hope that you get a place in your life where your body, mind and aspirations find some measure of content and equilibrium. God knows you have put in the hard yards here.
Ren. Just :hug: mate. Hang in there gorgeous. Here if ever you want to chat. Will not pass judgment nor share anything. I know this is hard for you too. PM always open hon, just so you know.
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Hope you get there. Seriously.
Thank you :)
I know you are making a lot of effort in changing yourself.
I've started seeing a speech therapist. Still seeing psychologist and psychiatrist, and endocrinologist and GP. Being trans is so expensive :(
I know that must be something that impacts on near on everything around you and I am glad i have no need to do the same.
Just hope the idea of what you will end up at is going to be as good for you as the reality when you get there.
As long as I'm seen as a female, socialised with as a female, I'll be happy. Getting there.
Best wishes to you, hope all goes well. :)
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It is not a putdown nor naysaying. It is meant. You have put up with a lot of shit and will continue to. You will have to cop most of it sweet. You will hurt some people by your actions and probably physically and emotionally go through hell over this.
To go through all of this I hope for your sake that you get where you have plotted your course. I hope that you get a place in your life where your body, mind and aspirations find some measure of content and equilibrium. God knows you have put in the hard yards here.
I know you didn't mean it as a putdown or slight, and I didn't see that way. But it is a question I've had to answer (and ask!) more times than I care to count. So I snap a bit :P
I do, also, hope I get where I want to be, but I feel that I will. It'll just take time and effort. (And far too much money... :( )
Best wishes to you, hope all goes well. :)
Thanks
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It is not a putdown nor naysaying. It is meant. You have put up with a lot of shit and will continue to. You will have to cop most of it sweet. You will hurt some people by your actions and probably physically and emotionally go through hell over this.
To go through all of this I hope for your sake that you get where you have plotted your course. I hope that you get a place in your life where your body, mind and aspirations find some measure of content and equilibrium. God knows you have put in the hard yards here.
I know you didn't mean it as a putdown or slight, and I didn't see that way. But it is a question I've had to answer (and ask!) more times than I care to count. So I snap a bit :P
I do, also, hope I get where I want to be, but I feel that I will. It'll just take time and effort. (And far too much money... :( )
Oh hell I did not think you were snapping at me. I just know how blunt and tactless I am and know that this is a sensitive subject so I am trying to reclarify to make sure that nothing is read into things that plain is not there. I would probably not get you snapping at me in any case.
I don't understand your decision to go down this path. I have no term of reference and it is alien to me.
I don't understand the pleasure you would seek to be in being a woman. Makes not the slightest sense to me.
I don't even get on with you a lot of the time.
But you are certainly making the effort and I can not doubt your desire or commitment and I think that all of us ought to have the right to get reward for effort and happiness in our lives. Life is hard enough and I do respect people having to work through difficult things.
I do worry for Ren. It is a crappy and hard time for both of you and I don't want either of you hurt anymore than you both are over this. Call me soft. I don't care.
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Hope you get there. Seriously.
Thank you :)
I know you are making a lot of effort in changing yourself.
I've started seeing a speech therapist. Still seeing psychologist and psychiatrist, and endocrinologist and GP. Being trans is so expensive :(
I know that must be something that impacts on near on everything around you and I am glad i have no need to do the same.
Just hope the idea of what you will end up at is going to be as good for you as the reality when you get there.
As long as I'm seen as a female, socialised with as a female, I'll be happy. Getting there.
How are you affording it, I wonder?
Here, I think most private health insurance would not cover any of the associated expenses unless you were able to justify them in a different way, so it would be all out of pocket.
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
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Being trans is so expensive :(
How are you affording it, I wonder?
Here, I think most private health insurance would not cover any of the associated expenses unless you were able to justify them in a different way, so it would be all out of pocket.
Alot of it is subsidised by public health; Medicare. The rest I have to save and be financially creative for.
Private health insurance here would probably subsidise it all, but the insurance would probably add more cost to it all.
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
Not likely :P
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
Not likely :P
Wasn't thinking that you might worry about that. :laugh:
But, Duke Nukem....
Often people seem to be afraid of romantic implications when something concerning sex or gender is not understood by them.
Duke Nukem seems self-conscious enough to be afraid of you fancying him. Not a good estimation of his own sex-appeal.
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
Not likely :P
Wasn't thinking that you might worry about that. :laugh:
But, Duke Nukem....
Often people seem to be afraid of romantic implications when something concerning sex or gender is not understood by them.
Duke Nukem seems self-conscious enough to be afraid of you fancying him. Not a good estimation of his own sex-appeal.
See this is why being asexual is so much easier. I don't need to worry about anyone's plumbing if I were to seek a romance with them.
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
Not likely :P
Wasn't thinking that you might worry about that. :laugh:
But, Duke Nukem....
Often people seem to be afraid of romantic implications when something concerning sex or gender is not understood by them.
Duke Nukem seems self-conscious enough to be afraid of you fancying him. Not a good estimation of his own sex-appeal.
See this is why being asexual is so much easier. I don't need to worry about anyone's plumbing if I were to seek a romance with them.
I'm sexual, but don't discriminate on plumbing either. That was enough for someone to be afraid of being fancied by me though. She did not have that fear towards men. Never understood the logic of that. When she found out I did not fancy her, she was insulted. :asthing: Women :duh:
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Being trans is so expensive :(
How are you affording it, I wonder?
Here, I think most private health insurance would not cover any of the associated expenses unless you were able to justify them in a different way, so it would be all out of pocket.
Alot of it is subsidised by public health; Medicare. The rest I have to save and be financially creative for.
Private health insurance here would probably subsidise it all, but the insurance would probably add more cost to it all.
Wow, you are lucky, then. I think there are only a handful of self-insured companies here, like Microsoft, that would pay for it. A handful of people have gotten it paid for with Medicaid after they bring a lawsuit and prove to a judge that it's "medicaly necessary" but most people have to pay for it completely by themselves. Maybe at best, they get their insurance to pay for some things if they are justified differently, like counselling for "depression".
Will you have to get a job to pay for the parts you have to pay for yourself?
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Will you have to get a job to pay for the parts you have to pay for yourself?
I'm currently looking for a job.
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See this is why being asexual is so much easier. I don't need to worry about anyone's plumbing if I were to seek a romance with them.
Always thought asexual meant without sex, but you did say romance so maybe meant something else.
Not sure if anyone else has commented on it, but the pupa avatar is an interesting choice.
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See this is why being asexual is so much easier. I don't need to worry about anyone's plumbing if I were to seek a romance with them.
Always thought asexual meant without sex, but you did say romance so maybe meant something else.
Romance is not about sex. It can have sex as a component of it, but romance is much more.
Not sure if anyone else has commented on it, but the pupa avatar is an interesting choice.
Thanks :)
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Romance is not about sex. It can have sex as a component of it, but romance is much more.
Agreed.
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Romance is not about sex. It can have sex as a component of it, but romance is much more.
Agreed.
Bullshit. Sex is part of the romance! When I sniff a dog's ass, I WANNA FUCK IT!!!
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Romance is not about sex. It can have sex as a component of it, but romance is much more.
Agreed.
Bullshit. Sex is part of the romance! When I sniff a dog's ass, I WANNA FUCK IT!!!
If bestiality is your thing...
But sex is an optional part of romance. A part yes, but a part both partners can agree not to engage in if they prefer. Sex is not the be all and end all of romantic relationships, but rather a optional extra.
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Sorry to say it, but you'd make one ugly woman.
Who do you prefer to have sex with? men or women? or hermaphrodites?
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
They're not just any prosthetic balls, they're BALLS OF STEEL! (TM)
:LMAO: :rofl:
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Sorry to say it, but you'd make one ugly woman.
Who do you prefer to have sex with? men or women? or hermaphrodites?
I don't have sex. Perhaps you didn't read clearly. I'm Asexual. Meaning I don't experience sexual attraction, or desire.
I do experience romantic attraction and desire.
Here I am, in all my ugliness.
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.03/yay.png)
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Romance is not about sex. It can have sex as a component of it, but romance is much more.
Agreed.
Bullshit. Sex is part of the romance! When I sniff a dog's ass, I WANNA FUCK IT!!!
You are just young and romantic. ;D
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
Not likely :P
Wasn't thinking that you might worry about that. :laugh:
But, Duke Nukem....
Often people seem to be afraid of romantic implications when something concerning sex or gender is not understood by them.
Duke Nukem seems self-conscious enough to be afraid of you fancying him. Not a good estimation of his own sex-appeal.
See this is why being asexual is so much easier. I don't need to worry about anyone's plumbing if I were to seek a romance with them.
I'm sexual, but don't discriminate on plumbing either. That was enough for someone to be afraid of being fancied by me though. She did not have that fear towards men. Never understood the logic of that. When she found out I did not fancy her, she was insulted. :asthing: Women :duh:
That's a classic sitcom scenario... :P
Gay character: "Oh, no, I don't like you that way!"
Staright character: "Oh, thank goodness...hey, wait a minute, why not?!"
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Sorry to say it, but you'd make one ugly woman.
Who do you prefer to have sex with? men or women? or hermaphrodites?
I don't have sex. Perhaps you didn't read clearly. I'm Asexual. Meaning I don't experience sexual attraction, or desire.
I do experience romantic attraction and desire.
Here I am, in all my ugliness.
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.03/yay.png)
I think the photo is good. And you look happy!
I can empathise with both you and Renaeden, as best I can....never been through it obviously, but do know some transgendered people as my very close friend is highly involved in the gay community.
Thank you for being brave enough to post the transformation. x
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
They're not just any prosthetic balls, they're BALLS OF STEEL! (TM)
:LMAO: :rofl:
And not even stainless.
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GA, you look more confident as a woman.
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GA, you look more confident as a woman.
Oh?
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Ugh. A transsexual. :thumbdn:
Wow, took you long to realise the transsexual thing.
What is the " Ugh :thumbdn: " about?
Afraid that GA might fancy your prosthetic balls?
They're not just any prosthetic balls, they're BALLS OF STEEL! (TM)
:LMAO: :rofl:
And not even stainless.
:plus:
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Today I saw a guy in a shopping centre who looked very much like you, GA. As I watched him, I thought, "Is he happy in himself as a man? Or does he dream of some day breaking free of his biology, and becoming something other than the body he was born in?" In the past it would never have occurred to me to wonder. :)
I've broadened your mind?
I've alway been fairly small-L-liberal, but I tend to just look at people's outsides and not worry much about what they are thinking and feeling. (Unless they are yelling at me or something.) So yes, you've broadened my outlook. :)
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This thread =
:LMAO:
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This thread =
:LMAO:
I'm glad I brightened your day.
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Sorry to say it, but you'd make one ugly woman.
Who do you prefer to have sex with? men or women? or hermaphrodites?
I don't have sex. Perhaps you didn't read clearly. I'm Asexual. Meaning I don't experience sexual attraction, or desire.
I do experience romantic attraction and desire.
Here I am, in all my ugliness.
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.03/yay.png)
You look good
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Sorry to say it, but you'd make one ugly woman.
Who do you prefer to have sex with? men or women? or hermaphrodites?
I don't have sex. Perhaps you didn't read clearly. I'm Asexual. Meaning I don't experience sexual attraction, or desire.
I do experience romantic attraction and desire.
Here I am, in all my ugliness.
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.03/yay.png)
You look good
That makes you gay, then. Looks like some fat 80's dude with a mullet and a headband.
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Sorry to say it, but you'd make one ugly woman.
Who do you prefer to have sex with? men or women? or hermaphrodites?
I don't have sex. Perhaps you didn't read clearly. I'm Asexual. Meaning I don't experience sexual attraction, or desire.
I do experience romantic attraction and desire.
Here I am, in all my ugliness.
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.03/yay.png)
You look good
That makes you gay, then. Looks like some fat 80's dude with a mullet and a headband.
No he looks happy and even seems to have clearer skin and better hair look up some of the old photos
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You look good...and (most important) happy also. :thumbup:
I just wish you and Renaeden the best.
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That makes you gay, then.
What's wrong with being gay?
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That makes you gay, then.
What's wrong with being gay?
Its just a religion essentially. We all know what religions do to people. Its not all nice...
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
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firstly, if you want to be a woman you need to lose weight. real women are usually really considerate about their own weight.
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Males look much more feminine when they have a few extra pounds.
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
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Males look much more feminine when they have a few extra pounds.
because of the titties and because you have a hard time seeing the female hips?
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
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Ignore Hadron. He's secretely gay himself but too scared to admit it.
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Ignore Hadron. He's secretely gay himself but too scared to admit it.
me to. not scared to admit it. but terrified to practice it. :laugh:
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Males look much more feminine when they have a few extra pounds.
because of the titties and because you have a hard time seeing the female hips?
The extra pounds create hips which would otherwise not be there. They also hide the adams apple and strong angles of the jaw line. Men also have different looking legs than women. Extra weight gives them a more rounded look.
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Males look much more feminine when they have a few extra pounds.
because of the titties and because you have a hard time seeing the female hips?
The extra pounds create hips which would otherwise not be there. They also hide the adams apple and strong angles of the jaw line. Men also have different looking legs than women. Extra weight gives them a more rounded look.
can't they wear something tight around the abdomine to give the illusion of hips?
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Males look much more feminine when they have a few extra pounds.
because of the titties and because you have a hard time seeing the female hips?
The extra pounds create hips which would otherwise not be there. They also hide the adams apple and strong angles of the jaw line. Men also have different looking legs than women. Extra weight gives them a more rounded look.
can't they wear something tight around the abdomine to give the illusion of hips?
That would be mighty uncomfortable. Take it from me, a woman who has become a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle too fat for everything she owns!
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Males look much more feminine when they have a few extra pounds.
because of the titties and because you have a hard time seeing the female hips?
The extra pounds create hips which would otherwise not be there. They also hide the adams apple and strong angles of the jaw line. Men also have different looking legs than women. Extra weight gives them a more rounded look.
can't they wear something tight around the abdomine to give the illusion of hips?
That would be mighty uncomfortable. Take it from me, a woman who has become a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle too fat for everything she owns!
not as bad, surely, as tight pants are for guys.
awwww, myyyy ballllls!
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can't they wear something tight around the abdomine to give the illusion of hips?
Not sure. Guess they could also pad their hips, but that does nothing for softening the facial features.
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
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Males look much more feminine when they have a few extra pounds.
because of the titties and because you have a hard time seeing the female hips?
The extra pounds create hips which would otherwise not be there. They also hide the adams apple and strong angles of the jaw line. Men also have different looking legs than women. Extra weight gives them a more rounded look.
can't they wear something tight around the abdomine to give the illusion of hips?
That would be mighty uncomfortable. Take it from me, a woman who has become a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle too fat for everything she owns!
not as bad, surely, as tight pants are for guys.
I'll have to take your word for that. :P
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
was the civil rights movement in america a religon?
i always thought it was about having a voice and equity.
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
was the civil rights movement in america a religon?
i always thought it was about having a voice and equity.
There is a crucial difference between the Black Rights cause and the Gay Rights one. Black rights are far more important than Gay rights. One group are after life, the other a lifestyle choice. Given the current state of disabled rights (again for the same reason a better cause that Gay rights), the Gay rights people need to shut up and let the political capital be spent on those in actual need of it.
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
was the civil rights movement in america a religon?
i always thought it was about having a voice and equity.
There is a crucial difference between the Black Rights cause and the Gay Rights one. Black rights are far more important than Gay rights. One group are after life, the other a lifestyle choice. Given the current state of disabled rights (again for the same reason a better cause that Gay rights), the Gay rights people need to shut up and let the political capital be spent on those in actual need of it.
gay people are still discriminated in the workplace. they are the subject of many hate crimes.
i would say that those two are decent reasons for life.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
-
Ignore Hadron. He's secretely gay himself but too scared to admit it.
me to. not scared to admit it. but terrified to practice it. :laugh:
Scared of anal or sucking cock? :P
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
was the civil rights movement in america a religon?
i always thought it was about having a voice and equity.
There is a crucial difference between the Black Rights cause and the Gay Rights one. Black rights are far more important than Gay rights. One group are after life, the other a lifestyle choice. Given the current state of disabled rights (again for the same reason a better cause that Gay rights), the Gay rights people need to shut up and let the political capital be spent on those in actual need of it.
gay people are still discriminated in the workplace. they are the subject of many hate crimes.
i would say that those two are decent reasons for life.
Disabled and black people have (had) it far worse. More to the point, Gay people have an easy choice here - don't declare. If hate crime happens, then they are protected like the rest of the population. Where is the option not to declare for disabled people, without it being a poisoned chalice, regardless which you drink.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
You are deluded.
(And a coward - though he has me on ignore. My posts are obviously too much for him.)
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
You are deluded.
(And a coward - though he has me on ignore. My posts are obviously too much for him.)
I'm not a he/him.
How am I deluded?
I have you on ignore because you seem to consistently spout ignorant nonsense. Acting all authoritative on issues you obviously have clue about.
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious. And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
You are deluded.
(And a coward - though he has me on ignore. My posts are obviously too much for him.)
I'm not a he/him.
How am I deluded?
I have you on ignore because you seem to consistently spout ignorant nonsense. Acting all authoritative on issues you obviously have clue about.
I think every can tell you have moobs and a small dick. Your the one in denial here. You are the one sprouting not only ignorant nonsense, but ignorant nonsense to the extent in which it has reached damaging self delusion. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
You are deluded.
(And a coward - though he has me on ignore. My posts are obviously too much for him.)
I'm not a he/him.
How am I deluded?
I have you on ignore because you seem to consistently spout ignorant nonsense. Acting all authoritative on issues you obviously have clue about.
I think every can tell you have moobs and a small dick. Your the one in denial here. You are the one sprouting not only ignorant nonsense, but ignorant nonsense to the extent in which it has reached damaging self delusion. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
You're*
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual. this way you can get to know the mind of the bigots that argue against you.
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.
No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.
And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.
-
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual.
So?
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
No.
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.
No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.
And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.
But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?
-
That makes you gay, then.
What's wrong with being gay?
Isn't Duke Nukem the one who goes on about fucking dogs anyway? As if you'd care what he thinks?
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual. this way you can get to know the mind of the bigots that argue against you.
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
:laugh:
I think its a tad disingenious to call me one. But that is basically how Stonewall et al take up loads of political capital. Anyone who argues against them gets branded as an xenophobe. They are no better than the Pope when he mistreated Galileo.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
-
Humans individually are quite intelligent. But in groups they are not. This has been proven in at least one study, possibly more.
So why on earth would anyone want to follow what society says?
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
You're a moron. Standing up for minority rights, no matter the group can only help other minorities, pave the way as it were.
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.
No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.
And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.
But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?
The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual. this way you can get to know the mind of the bigots that argue against you.
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
:laugh:
I think its a tad disingenious to call me one. But that is basically how Stonewall et al take up loads of political capital. Anyone who argues against them gets branded as an xenophobe. They are no better than the Pope when he mistreated Galileo.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
you don't let people be who they choose to be without forming opinions, judgements about their behavior.
let people live how they want just so long as they don't hurt others.
-
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
Since you are such a learned creature, Hadron, you will know, often minority groups fight against each other in much the same way. Hence you are following the crowd.
I'd suggest you are ignorant on the subject of it, as we all are until we go through it.
You can call it a lifestyle choice all you want, clearly GA has had these feelings since a young child and completely unaware of your social theories.
I wish he would take you off ignore, only for the fact of, it shows he is strong in what he believes in.
Most of your beliefs are based on theory, not your own personal practice.
-
That makes you gay, then.
What's wrong with being gay?
Isn't Duke Nukem the one who goes on about fucking dogs anyway? As if you'd care what he thinks?
True, but it was more an open question.
The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.
Err... I didn't decide this week. Or this year. Or even this decade. I've always been this way. I've always had these feelings. I tried to bury them, ignore them. Be as society said I should be.
But I can't, won't.
My decision to act on them goes back as far as 7 years ago. I've hidden behind being male for years. It's not me. It's not who I am. I can't be what society says I should be. I want to be me. I want to stop hiding.
Here you go again, talking about issues so authoritatively as though you're an expert, when really you don't even have the slimmest grasp of what these issues are really about.
You don't 'become' gay. It's not a choice. Not like someone wakes up and decides I'm going to be gay today. And being gay isn't about having sex with the same gender. It's about being attracted to the same gender.
-
I'm not a he. Dammit.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual. this way you can get to know the mind of the bigots that argue against you.
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
:laugh:
I think its a tad disingenious to call me one. But that is basically how Stonewall et al take up loads of political capital. Anyone who argues against them gets branded as an xenophobe. They are no better than the Pope when he mistreated Galileo.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
How are you harmed] by equal rights for gay people? If gay couples are allowed to marry, for instance, how does that impinge upon your rights and opportunities?
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual. this way you can get to know the mind of the bigots that argue against you.
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
:laugh:
I think its a tad disingenious to call me one. But that is basically how Stonewall et al take up loads of political capital. Anyone who argues against them gets branded as an xenophobe. They are no better than the Pope when he mistreated Galileo.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
How are you harmed] by equal rights for gay people? If gay couples are allowed to marry, for instance, how does that impinge upon your rights and opportunities?
apparently there are only so many equal rights to go around. i think that he is afraid that once people stop gay bashing then they will begin disabled people bashing. a natural progeression, really.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual. this way you can get to know the mind of the bigots that argue against you.
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
:laugh:
I think its a tad disingenious to call me one. But that is basically how Stonewall et al take up loads of political capital. Anyone who argues against them gets branded as an xenophobe. They are no better than the Pope when he mistreated Galileo.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
How are you harmed] by equal rights for gay people? If gay couples are allowed to marry, for instance, how does that impinge upon your rights and opportunities?
apparently there are only so many equal rights to go around. i think that he is afraid that once people stop gay bashing then they will begin disabled people bashing. a natural progeression, really.
They already do.
-
Humans individually are quite intelligent. But in groups they are not. This has been proven in at least one study, possibly more.
So why on earth would anyone want to follow what society says?
Most of the time you do what society says, whether you admit to it or not. Its about picking your battles.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
You're a moron. Standing up for minority rights, no matter the group can only help other minorities, pave the way as it were.
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual. this way you can get to know the mind of the bigots that argue against you.
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
:laugh:
I think its a tad disingenious to call me one. But that is basically how Stonewall et al take up loads of political capital. Anyone who argues against them gets branded as an xenophobe. They are no better than the Pope when he mistreated Galileo.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
How are you harmed] by equal rights for gay people? If gay couples are allowed to marry, for instance, how does that impinge upon your rights and opportunities?
apparently there are only so many equal rights to go around. i think that he is afraid that once people stop gay bashing then they will begin disabled people bashing. a natural progeression, really.
They already do.
i was being facetious. is there a smiley for that?
-
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.
No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.
And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.
But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?
The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.
Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?
-
Humans individually are quite intelligent. But in groups they are not. This has been proven in at least one study, possibly more.
So why on earth would anyone want to follow what society says?
Most of the time you do what society says, whether you admit to it or not. Its about picking your battles.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
You're a moron. Standing up for minority rights, no matter the group can only help other minorities, pave the way as it were.
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Oh boo fucking hoo. You need to try harder then. There's hundreds of thousands of voices out there all clamouring to heard by the various governments and institutions. You just need to make yourself be heard.
Gay people are obviously better at it than you are. So go cry me river, you sook.
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?
Exactly. Funding isn't linear. The governments could hand out funding to the gay cause (or not as the case most likely is, considering it's almost entirely self funded), whilst still giving funding to disability rights.
Just because one group gets something doesn't mean other's won't. You're thinking to narrowly and linearly.
-
:spam: (http://www.clan-phx.com/Smileys/yarex2/Smiley_OffTopic.gif)
:P
are you closed minded? these subjects are very pertinent to you if you would take them for their lesson.
I'm not closed minded. I know what I am. :)
yes but you will viewed as a homosexual. this way you can get to know the mind of the bigots that argue against you.
now take hadron off ignore. you may learn something....right or wrong.
:laugh:
I think its a tad disingenious to call me one. But that is basically how Stonewall et al take up loads of political capital. Anyone who argues against them gets branded as an xenophobe. They are no better than the Pope when he mistreated Galileo.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
How are you harmed by equal rights for gay people? If gay couples are allowed to marry, for instance, how does that impinge upon your rights and opportunities?
As I have pointed out - it costs political capital to get things through and I could think of other things that it could have been spent on. Political capital is finite and precious. I actually have no objection at all to gay relationships, as I have already said its up to them what they do with their lives. In the UK they are equal under law, so they have all they should get. However, having got what they want, they are now occupying lots of political capital on things like blood donations and allowing all gay people from around the world to immigrate, along with the renaming of civil partnerships. What they are asking for is either trivial, semantics or outright ridiculous.
apparently there are only so many equal rights to go around. i think that he is afraid that once people stop gay bashing then they will begin disabled people bashing. a natural progeression, really.
In practise that is the way things work. All equal rights bills refer to groups of people. Personally I think the current system should be replaced with a direct social meritocracy (positions given out on a blind basis, only allowed to ask for criteria that is strictly neccessary and so on). But that is not going to happen and rights are being done in an order, very slowly. Disabled rights have to go above gay rights. When we have a fair shot at education, are treated with respect and have fair access to jobs then gay rights might need to come back on the radar. But for now, our rights are being neglected whilst capital is being wasted elsewhere.
-
I wish he would take you off ignore, only for the fact of, it shows he is strong in what he believes in.
Most of your beliefs are based on theory, not your own personal practice.
I don't see why he should take him off ignore, really. Hadron is obviously a bigot who argues the contrary position regardless of the facts.
I guess you could argue that dealing with Hadron here could be practice for dealing with ignorant bigots IRL when GA leaves home dressed as a woman.
-
Humans individually are quite intelligent. But in groups they are not. This has been proven in at least one study, possibly more.
So why on earth would anyone want to follow what society says?
Most of the time you do what society says, whether you admit to it or not. Its about picking your battles.
Isn't this what you so staunchly support, Hadron? Going against the grain, standing up for what you believe in?
Now you want GA to conform?
-
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?
Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.
-
I'm not a he. Dammit.
-
What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.
No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.
And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.
But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?
The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.
Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?
Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.
-
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?
Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.
Ok. That makes sense. Then replace money with political capital, same question.
-
Humans individually are quite intelligent. But in groups they are not. This has been proven in at least one study, possibly more.
So why on earth would anyone want to follow what society says?
Most of the time you do what society says, whether you admit to it or not. Its about picking your battles.
Really everyone needs to take a step back and see how damaging gay rights is to our (disabled) rights. That is my objection. I don't give a damn whatever religious or sexual activity people get on with in their lives. I object when their activities start to impinge on my rights and opportunities. How does that make me a bigot?
You're a moron. Standing up for minority rights, no matter the group can only help other minorities, pave the way as it were.
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Oh boo fucking hoo. You need to try harder then. There's hundreds of thousands of voices out there all clamouring to heard by the various governments and institutions. You just need to make yourself be heard.
Gay people are obviously better at it than you are. So go cry me river, you sook.
Oh - because whoever shouts the loudest should get what they want. Whilst it fits with your level of maturity, it is not the way things should be.
Of course, it would be a lot easier to get things done if people with AS had more self respect...
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?
Exactly. Funding isn't linear. The governments could hand out funding to the gay cause (or not as the case most likely is, considering it's almost entirely self funded), whilst still giving funding to disability rights.
Just because one group gets something doesn't mean other's won't. You're thinking to narrowly and linearly.
Most people with AS have few opportunities, are not included in society and as a result the majority have mental health problems. 3% of us live independently. Over 80% of us are out of employment. Gay people have it very good in comparision.
I am telling it how it is. Its not my problem that you don't like it.
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I wish he would take you off ignore, only for the fact of, it shows he is strong in what he believes in.
Most of your beliefs are based on theory, not your own personal practice.
I don't see why he should take him off ignore, really. Hadron is obviously a bigot who argues the contrary position regardless of the facts.
I guess you could argue that dealing with Hadron here could be practice for dealing with ignorant bigots IRL when GA leaves home dressed as a woman.
The only fact here is that GA has decided to be a woman. He has made a choice here. Rather than deal with the fact he has AS, he has decided to make himself more socially ostracised and then blame society for doing so. Its exactly this sort of thing which undermines legitmate efforts to sort things out for us all.
-
Debating with Hadron over gay issues is pointless. He won't change his mind or be any less deluded.
-
Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?
Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.
Ok. That makes sense. Then replace money with political capital, same question.
Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.
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Debating with Hadron over gay issues is pointless. He won't change his mind or be any less deluded.
Your the ones who make claims without backing them up, not myself. Just like the Pope, you would block any legitimate scientist from properly investigating them. We all know what happens if a result turns up that goes against the gay rights movements doctrine. The scientist gets their name dragged through the mud and loses their career, even if they were 100% right.
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.
No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.
And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.
But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?
The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.
Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?
Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.
I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. ::)
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Debating with Hadron over gay issues is pointless. He won't change his mind or be any less deluded.
Your the ones who make claims without backing them up, not myself. Just like the Pope, you would block any legitimate scientist from properly investigating them. We all know what happens if a result turns up that goes against the gay rights movements doctrine. The scientist gets their name dragged through the mud and loses their career, even if they were 100% right.
See? :zoinks:
I've had a similar discussion with him countless times.
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Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?
Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.
Ok. That makes sense. Then replace money with political capital, same question.
Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.
Gay rights have not been "solved" as long as gay couples are unable to marry. And, THEY need to move out of OUR way? Can you not grasp the possibility of someone being both gay AND on the autistic spectrum?
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.
No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.
And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.
But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?
The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.
Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?
Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.
I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. ::)
I think you need to stop trying to put words into my mouth and making things as black and white as you seem to need it to be. Sexuality is a choice, as I have said. The most logical choice tends to be the one that produces children.
Now you need to explain why any of these groups have a stronger argument for what they want than any strongly religious group. Explain why they deserve it more. Rather than trying to roll my argument into something which I have never made.
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I wish he would take you off ignore, only for the fact of, it shows he is strong in what he believes in.
Most of your beliefs are based on theory, not your own personal practice.
I don't see why he should take him off ignore, really. Hadron is obviously a bigot who argues the contrary position regardless of the facts.
I guess you could argue that dealing with Hadron here could be practice for dealing with ignorant bigots IRL when GA leaves home dressed as a woman.
The only fact here is that GA has decided to be a woman. He has made a choice here. Rather than deal with the fact he has AS, he has decided to make himself more socially ostracised and then blame society for doing so. Its exactly this sort of thing which undermines legitmate efforts to sort things out for us all.
I'd suggest you add to your reading GID - Gender Identity Disorder and Aspergers Syndrome.
I don't get the theme that GA is blaming society. Narrowmindedness, perhaps is your affliction Hadron...maybe you have AS and can't bend your black and white theories?
I go back to the fact that GA has had these feelings since a young child. If this is the way s/he can operate in the world and feel whole and able to contribute, then what skin is it off your nose?
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Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.
Animal rights could still be competition. It could be argued gay right haven't been solved. Treating them as a pariah is still written into the legislature of many states when it comes to marriage and adoption. Completely agree more attention is required for rights of the disabled, but unconvinced the government would suddenly be filled with an outpouring of interest if gay rights were no longer a concern.
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Oh - because whoever shouts the loudest should get what they want. Whilst it fits with your level of maturity, it is not the way things should be.
Most of the time you do what society says, whether you admit to it or not. Its about picking your battles.
Either you want to change things. Or you don't. Which is it?
if you want to change things, doesn't that mean, inherently, you've failed society? Are you just hiding behind Autism?
The only fact here is that GA has decided to be a woman. He has made a choice here. Rather than deal with the fact he has AS, he has decided to make himself more socially ostracised and then blame society for doing so. Its exactly this sort of thing which undermines legitmate efforts to sort things out for us all.
Thank you for telling me how I think. It's so gratifying to have you in my head to be able to tell me these things. /sarcasm
Seriously...Who the fuck do you think you are? Telling me and other's what and why I'm doing this? How would you know? You don't know me. You don't know my life.
I've dealt/am dealing with my Autism just fine. I came to terms with it a long time ago. It's not some scary add-on, part rather a part of me. I am Autistic. Autism is me. I spent years trying to understand autism, and what it meant to me. How it affected to me. I did this during high school, not exactly and easy task when it was an all boys' school, and I was actually mentally female. I have accepted who I am, and what that means, for my abilities, for my strengths and for my weaknesses. I know myself, and I know myself well. Do you? Somehow I don't think so. You keep fighting, but is your fight misdirected?
Just as neither of us decided to be Autistic, I did not decide to be transgender. I didn't choose to have a female mind and male body. I didn't choose to be Autistic and Asexual. I just am. It is me. This is who I am. Do not presume to tell me who I am. I know me better than you will ever know me. I've done year and years of soul searching, questing, uming and ahing over every detail. It took me 15yrs to even talk about my cross-gendered feelings to someone. And a further 6-7yrs to do something about it. So don't tell me I just decided like it was some whim. This has been years in the making. YEARS.
So kindly take your supercilious ass wankery and shove it.
No one's rights are "solved" until everyone has the same and equal rights. EVERYONE. I don't care who or what they are, they deserve the same equal rights as everyone else. Be they gay, disabled, racial minority, religious, non-religious, anything.
There is no justification for prejudice.
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Completely incorrect, as I have already explained in this thread. The successes of Gay rights have not helped us, instead it has meant that political capital has been spent on them rather than disabled people. Its disgusting.
Why do you assume money that has been spent on perpetuating gay rights would have otherwise been spent on the disabled?
Its not about money, political capital is about what the government does. Currently disabled rights are nothing like as stringent as they should be.
Ok. That makes sense. Then replace money with political capital, same question.
Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.
Gay rights have not been "solved" as long as gay couples are unable to marry. And, THEY need to move out of OUR way? Can you not grasp the possibility of someone being both gay AND on the autistic spectrum?
They are able to enter into a civil partnership in the UK, which is identical to a marriage in all but name. Some gay people prefer that status quo of it not being called marriage. Who are you to overrule them?
Personally I think the religions, including the gay rights believers, should all battle it out. But not on the public stage and not in parliament. Political capital should not be being spent on this. There are far greater needs out there.
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There are far greater needs out there.
Who are you? What gives you the right to determine what is of greater need and what isn't? BROADENED YOUR WORLD VIEW! Stop thinking only of what helps or hinder your cause. You'll be better off for it. You'll be more equipped to assist your cause than before.
You're are currently acting of half-knowledge and assumptions. Wild assumptions. This is clearly evident. This will only hurt your cause in the long run.
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They are able to enter into a civil partnership in the UK, which is identical to a marriage in all but name.
Sorry, noob mistake. Didn't realize we were discussing different governments.
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What has religion got to do with being gay? :facepalm2:
Everything - all the LGBT stuff uses both a religious mentality and arguments. If you do a proper comparision, it would be very hard to illustrate that homosexuality is nothing more or less than a religious belief.
Eh? ??? You think gay people are attracted to people of their own gender because of religious beliefs? What religious beliefs are those? You've completely lost me...
Being attracted to your own gender is no different to any other religious belief. "I must do this because the Lord tells me to" "I have a vision from God" et yadda. There is absolutely no difference in principle between the gay rights movement and any other church.
I have never in my life seen, heard or read any statement by a gay person saying "I must be with my own gender because I had a vision/God told me to." Please explain! ???
Replace God with the unshakable belief that man must shove dick up anothers arse and you get a little closer to my point...
I have never heard anyone say that "Man must shove dick up another's arse." Where are you getting this?! :duh:
Do I really have to spell out my argument in dripping detail so that you get it? Compare Stonewall et al to a religious movement or group and you find that they behave in exactly the same way. They all have their delusions that they follow. They all think that they have the right to get offended if someone questions their delusions, moreover they believe that those who offend them should be punished for doing so. Along with this, they have an extensive set of rituals that go well beyond fucking people up the arse. They claim to have a culture.
Structually and practically, it is a religion and should be treated as such. There is no decent scientific evidence that people are born gay - rather they have been taken in by the ideas behind it. It is a lifestyle and a lifestyle choice.
So all gay people are actually straight, and just forcing themselves to have sex with people of their own gender, because they think the "lifestyle" is cool? Do you think anyone is truly gay? ???
I think we have choices over our own actions. There are people who are strongly convinced that they are born religious, that their beliefs are a basis of life and all decisions that they make. Is that any different to the argument that gay people make? Really they have made a choice to be gay, in the same way the devoutly religious person does not see that they have made a choice to be devoutly religious. It is just another way of abdicating responsbility for ones own actions. They are choosing to act against a set of defined norms and trying to change them for no good reason. Really they are just weak people, however much they want to pretend otherwise. Same with the majority of the population who base their thinking around religious mentality, whether they follow a recognised religion or not.
In the other corner, we have black and disabled people who have (or had in the case of black people) no choice whatsover in acting against the current set of social norms. Correcting these social norms should be the priority. Not indulging the whims of feeble minds at the expense of far more worthy causes.
This is the strangest discussion I've ever had with anyone...I've never heard any religious person say he was "born religious"---taught to be religious, by parents or by a pastor, but not born religious.
No - but most religious people who stick at it cannot see things another way, same with gay people.
And I find it very hard to believe that truly heterosexual people deliberately act against their heterosexuality just to "act against a set of defined norms." I will ask you again, do you really believe that everyone is born straight?
I am not saying its a delibrate choice, not at least on a concious level. But it is a decision that acts against the current set of social norms, which they then expect everyone to change to fit around them. Its the same way that someone might become religious. They claim that they have a calling of some sort in many cases. But very few wake up one morning and just like that decide they want to believe in God. Rather, they drift into it.
But what would be the motive for a genuinely straight person to "drift into" homosexuality? If he was not at all attracted to people of his own gender, do you really think the appeal of rebelling against convention would be enough to keep him from dating/falling in love with the people who did attract him?
The same reason that GA has decided that this week he is a woman. Because they are failing at society and need something to hide behind. Its about saving face - its harder to fit in as a straight atheist male than it is if you join a religious clique or become gay. Really we are talking about misplaced blame - rather than recognise where they are going wrong in the current system, they try to switch into a different set of parameters. GA is ultimately going to end up being disappointed.
Last time, I promise: Do you believe that all gay/bi/transgendered people are actually straight people "taken in" by the appeal of an alternative lifestyle?
Many are. Many choose to do it for another set of reasons - the same set as why someone would choose to be religious. The point is that it is a choice. It is the onus of the Gay rights movement to back up these claims that they are making, without proper evidence. Not on me just to believe them.
I must conclude, then, that you do not believe anyone comes out as gay/bi/tansgendered because that is what they truly are. You are saying some do it to rebel against the "current social norms," others because they "fail at society," but that all of them are actually straight and would be perfectly happy in straight lives if only they would make up their minds to grow up and conform. Have I got that right? Just checking. ::)
I think you need to stop trying to put words into my mouth and making things as black and white as you seem to need it to be. Sexuality is a choice, as I have said. The most logical choice tends to be the one that produces children.
Now you need to explain why any of these groups have a stronger argument for what they want than any strongly religious group. Explain why they deserve it more. Rather than trying to roll my argument into something which I have never made.
I "put words into your mouth," that is, speculate about what you think, because you refuse to answer whether you believe anyone is truly gay. Since you keep talking about homosexulaity as a lifestyle choice made by rebels and misfits, rather than acknowledging that it might in fact be the natural orientation for some, I can only conclude that you do not believe anyone is truly gay. If I have misunderstood you, I would love to hear what you really think.
And why do I now "need to" compare and contrast the rights of gay people and the rights of religious people?
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I wish he would take you off ignore, only for the fact of, it shows he is strong in what he believes in.
Most of your beliefs are based on theory, not your own personal practice.
I don't see why he should take him off ignore, really. Hadron is obviously a bigot who argues the contrary position regardless of the facts.
I guess you could argue that dealing with Hadron here could be practice for dealing with ignorant bigots IRL when GA leaves home dressed as a woman.
The only fact here is that GA has decided to be a woman. He has made a choice here. Rather than deal with the fact he has AS, he has decided to make himself more socially ostracised and then blame society for doing so. Its exactly this sort of thing which undermines legitmate efforts to sort things out for us all.
I'd suggest you add to your reading GID - Gender Identity Disorder and Aspergers Syndrome.
I don't get the theme that GA is blaming society. Narrowmindedness, perhaps is your affliction Hadron...maybe you have AS and can't bend your black and white theories?
I go back to the fact that GA has had these feelings since a young child. If this is the way s/he can operate in the world and feel whole and able to contribute, then what skin is it off your nose?
There is no concrete evidence to support the GID stuff - just because a PhD says something on autism, does not make it true. Most of the stuff is just opinion. I am sure for every GID paper you can find on AS, you could find a paper supporting Jenny McCarthy or Autism Speaks's arguments. Pretty much all of them are bunkrum. You have no evidence, stop pretending that you do.
All people with AS develop obsessions and many hold some sort of delusional belief in childhood, ranging all the way from UFO's down to thinking that they are some fantasy creature of some sort. It is how they try to intellectualise their differences. The difference is that most people with AS, in the process of growing up, discard many of these beliefs as they come up with better explantions. GA has not managed this. I don't feel it is a good idea to enable him or anyone else like him. Over time his delusions have been allowed to fester to the point they have almost become his reality. Being a weak man, he hasnt fought his delusions and has instead embraced them.
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Because it would be the only major equality issue left. Gay rights has been solved. They need to move on and out of our way.
Animal rights could still be competition. It could be argued gay right haven't been solved. Treating them as a pariah is still written into the legislature of many states when it comes to marriage and adoption. Completely agree more attention is required for rights of the disabled, but unconvinced the government would suddenly be filled with an outpouring of interest if gay rights were no longer a concern.
I am saying that things would happen a lot more quickly and effectively - not instantly. Animal rights is something we could kick off the stage quite easily - its not like the autism organisations are short of money.
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Ok, I've had enough of Hadron telling what I'm thinking. Or why I'm thinking it.
Locking thread.
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Unlocked.
Hadron has his own little sandbox to preach in, so discussion here can continue for those who are interested, just as long as it's not about how I'm bringing down the Aspie zeitgeist or something.
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This is an interesting thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3271050
A quote:
-What kinds of hormones are involved?
Typically, hormones for male-to-female transsexuals involve the following:
- Anti-androgens (Cyproterone acetate (Androcur), Spironolactone)
- Estradiol (Estrace (synthetic), Premarin (“organic”))
- Progesterone (Provera) (this one is dubious as many health care practitioners don't see any benefit in progesterone for trans women)
Anti-androgens suppress the male hormone testosterone and cease masculinization of the body. Spironolactone specifically also has the effect of being a form of anti-acne medication (and is actually marketed as such for cis women). Estradiol is the main female sex hormone, which is in all regiments of hormone replacement therapy (HRT) for trans women. Progesterone has dubious advantages and disadvantages. As of this posting, the Sherbourne Health Centre's HRT Protocol does not include progesterone as a viable component of HRT.
The main reason why anti-androgens are used is because it allows estrogen to feminize the body more easily, without having to fight testosterone for the same amount of space and function. Without anti-androgens, high amounts of estrogens must be prescribed. High amounts of oral estrogens can cause blood clotting, cancers, and so on. While AA's aren't perfect, their side effects and potential damaging effects are far less than overloading on estrogens. And on the plus side, AA's also bring testosterone levels to normal female amounts.
Typically, the following dosages are used.
- Spironolactone 100-200mg (typically 50mg or 100mg twice daily) OR Androcur 50mg-100mg.
- Estradiol 2-4mg (once daily) or Premarin 4-5mg (once daily)
- Progesterone 100mg (once daily) (optional/not recommended)
Hormones such as this are typically taken in pill form, although estrogen can also be taken as an injection into the muscles of the butt or leg every seven to ten days.
If one has not undergone the "wrong" puberty, or wishes to shut down a currently-ongoing puberty, drugs such as Lupron can be taken (again, injection) to essentially shut off the hormone-regulating functions of the brain, therefore ceasing puberty before more damage can be done. “Puberty blockers” as they're known are generally not useful for any trans person over the age of 18 or 19, and instead anti-androgens should be used for trans women.
-What can I expect out of hormones?
It depends on the person. Some of the most noticeable (and nigh-universal) effects of female sex hormones and anti-androgens on male-bodied persons are:
- Much softer skin texture
- Decrease and eventual elimination of male sex drive and the development of a female sex drive
- Slower-growing (although not disappearing) body hair
- Reduction in acne
Depending on age, build, and genetics, the following may also happen:
- Breast growth (final size and shape dependent heavily on genetics, body fat index, body shape)
- Lactation (got milk)
- Puffier cheeks
- Redistribution of fat to chest, hips, thighs, face and arms
- Greatly reduced muscle mass/enhanced female-type muscle tone
- Reduced penile tissue (it's gonna get smaller)
- Reduced gonadal function (nothings gonna come out anymore, also sterility (although estrogen is NOT birth control - some girls never get completely sterile before an orchi or SRS; please have safe sex))
What WILL NOT happen is the following:
- Bone structure will not change unless started through puberty (hips, face, frame, etc. do not change)* (note below)
- Voice will not go higher (it will need to be trained)
- You will still have to shave (and undergo Laser or Electrolysis to epilate the hairs permanently)
- Your genetics will not convert from XY to XX
- Your testicles and penis will not fall off
- You will not grow ovaries and/or a vagina
* While bone structure may not change, fat and muscle redistribution over time may make the hips, chest, face, etc. take on a more feminine shape, especially if one has started in their late teens through to their mid-to-late 20's. Hips may appear more girly, you might start developing the right curves, and so on, over the course of a year or two. While these possible effects go down over time, you'll only start facing real problems if you begin over the age of 35-36.
Some of the bad effects:
- Spironolactone is a diuretic, which means you will pee a lot more than usual.
- Salt intake will also be a bit hosed with Spiro, and will most likely require you to eat more salty things.
- Potassium may spike with Spiro.
- Occasional mood swings on Estrogen, although no where near as bad as if you were on Progesterone as well.
- Water retention levels will go up and down even while on Spiro because of E. Welcome to being a woman!
- Your breasts will hurt. A lot.
- Your testicles may or may not be in occasional pain. This is either hit or miss for most people: some get it, some don't.
-Sex drive?
The female sex drive is very different than the male sex drive. As opposed to it being “always on,” it takes more time to work up to a full erection or to be aroused in general. Sex is often less “rushed” and the orgasm doesn't become the centre-piece of the sexual act. Orgasm becomes something of a full-body experience, ranging from slightly more intense than a male orgasm to extremely intense and mind-blowing, depending on how well the body takes to it and how well the body was stimulated before hand.
You most likely will still be able to get erections with a female sex drive, and your interests generally won't change too dramatically. The #1 sex organ is the brain. Estrogen might make you like certain things more than you thought possible (smelling the scent off of a boy will be very interesting the first time you do it, especially if you consider yourself to be lesbian).
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an interesting thing would be sexuality. i know a lot of trans people change gay->straight, straight->bi etc once they start, but don't recall ever reading anything on trans people who are asexual. have you considered that hormones might alter your being asexual? just something that occurred to me then
if i took had hormone therapy i would kinda hope it'd turn me bi, but i guess you don't get to pick & choose :P
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an interesting thing would be sexuality. i know a lot of trans people change gay->straight, straight->bi etc once they start, but don't recall ever reading anything on trans people who are asexual. have you considered that hormones might alter your being asexual? just something that occurred to me then
if i took had hormone therapy i would kinda hope it'd turn me bi, but i guess you don't get to pick & choose :P
I'm panromantic, heteroattracted asexual (if you go by my current body, homoattracted if you use my gender). But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.
But even then...I don't think sex would ever be a big deal to me.
As a girl I'm gay and I doubt that will change, but I am open to the possibility of also being attracted to some men. I don't know how likely that is, but hopes it's not likely. But I'm still open minded.
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But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.
this is something i've thought about myself aswell. i am not asexual in that i am sexxually attracted to plenty of women, but being trans obviously limits that kinda thing anyway. i mean if i wasn't trans i would be a fairly normal straight guy, but as i am now, most women (except maybe asexual women) would not be interested in a relationship with me.
how have reactions to your being trans been irl btw? do you get comments off people when you go out or are you not openly trans in public?
also (again this might not apply if you're not openly trans in public) how do you deal with the awkward situations? such as when someone assumes they've offended you by mistaking your sex and then get all uncomfortable about it.. or when someone seems confused about what gender you are... have you had that yet? that is a problem for me at uni mainly
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btw a good thing i've noticed about your whole approach (how it comes across to me anyway) is that you seem fairly confident and secure about who you are yourself. that will help if/when you start getting all the awkward stuff i think - online you come across as fairly strong about the whole thing i mean, whereas irl my social anxiety probably makes me come across as fairly weak/insecure about it, and people pick up on that.
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firstly, if you want to be a woman you need to lose weight. real women are usually really considerate about their own weight.
Only if you wear drunk goggles 24/7. :laugh:
Will you have to get a job to pay for the parts you have to pay for yourself?
I'm currently looking for a job.
What kind of job?
I'm panromantic, heteroattracted asexual (if you go by my current body, homoattracted if you use my gender). But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.
But even then...I don't think sex would ever be a big deal to me.
As a girl I'm gay and I doubt that will change, but I am open to the possibility of also being attracted to some men. I don't know how likely that is, but hopes it's not likely. But I'm still open minded.
I wondered the same thing since you came out as trans. It surprises me that you don't know, either, though I suppose you have know way of knowing until you actually have made the change to the degree of completion that you want to.
Debating with Hadron is pointless. He won't change his mind or be any less deluded.
fixed.
I mean, seriously, homosexuality is an organized religion? I really think Hadron's getting increasingly batshit fucknuts with the passage of time.
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Unlocked.
Oh hey. Cool.
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how have reactions to your being trans been irl btw? do you get comments off people when you go out or are you not openly trans in public?
I'm not exactly open about being trans in public. I don't pass as a woman. I wear some feminine clothing items, but I don't dress as a woman. Not yet. I'll wait until hormones have had more of an effect before I push forward in that are.
also (again this might not apply if you're not openly trans in public) how do you deal with the awkward situations? such as when someone assumes they've offended you by mistaking your sex and then get all uncomfortable about it.. or when someone seems confused about what gender you are... have you had that yet? that is a problem for me at uni mainly
That would mostly happen online, where I am out about who and what I am. But it doesn't really happen much online. I imagine it will happen irl eventually.
btw a good thing i've noticed about your whole approach (how it comes across to me anyway) is that you seem fairly confident and secure about who you are yourself. that will help if/when you start getting all the awkward stuff i think - online you come across as fairly strong about the whole thing i mean, whereas irl my social anxiety probably makes me come across as fairly weak/insecure about it, and people pick up on that.
Oh I have doubts. About a great many things. I sometimes doubt my autism, my transness, my ADHD, I even doubt me in general. But really there comes a point where you need to stop wavering and start doing something, anything.
You're not the first who has said I seem more confident...
Will you have to get a job to pay for the parts you have to pay for yourself?
I'm currently looking for a job.
What kind of job?
Any kind of job really. I mean within reason, it's obvious that I could not perform adequately in a labour intensive job, not at my current level of fitness. Which I do aim to improve.
In a perfect world I'd prefer some job where I don't have to deal with many people, and all I do is solve problems, preferably computer based.
Also I do have aims to go to Uni to study teaching. (I may have said that already :asthing: )
I'm panromantic, heteroattracted asexual (if you go by my current body, homoattracted if you use my gender). But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.
But even then...I don't think sex would ever be a big deal to me.
As a girl I'm gay and I doubt that will change, but I am open to the possibility of also being attracted to some men. I don't know how likely that is, but hopes it's not likely. But I'm still open minded.
I wondered the same thing since you came out as trans. It surprises me that you don't know, either, though I suppose you have know way of knowing until you actually have made the change to the degree of completion that you want to.
What do you mean?
Unlocked.
Oh hey. Cool.
:)
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I'm panromantic, heteroattracted asexual (if you go by my current body, homoattracted if you use my gender). But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.
But even then...I don't think sex would ever be a big deal to me.
As a girl I'm gay and I doubt that will change, but I am open to the possibility of also being attracted to some men. I don't know how likely that is, but hopes it's not likely. But I'm still open minded.
I wondered the same thing since you came out as trans. It surprises me that you don't know, either, though I suppose you have know way of knowing until you actually have made the change to the degree of completion that you want to.
What do you mean?
I guess I was surprised that you didn't feel more certain about how your being asexual relates to your being trans, but then realized you coudln't be 100% sure until you changed your body to whatever degree of completion you're aiming for (I forget what that is and can't be arsed to look it up- I thought for awhile you weren't even going on hormones, but that's changed now, so I decided not to make assumptions).
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If anyone is interested:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.04/dramatic.jpg)
Left is 6-7yrs ago. Right was a few weeks ago, just after waking up.
The extent of my facial hair growing abilities (pic was before I decided to deal with my gender issues)
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.04/080502.jpg)
Isn't photoshop wonderful? :P
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.04/mod_P1030180.jpg)
original:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.04/P1030180.png)
And finish off with a bit of TMI... (which is probably not at all TMI for this site :P )
I stole this from a webcomic, because it illustrates it so well:
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.04/20090701.gif)
I've experience both now.
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GA is back to enforce his will upon others again.
Fuck off, will you? :eyelash:
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How is GA enforcing will...? I like to see how things are progressing....how does it hurt you Shleed?
Don't photoshop GA, the just woken up pic is a good one.
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GA is back to enforce his will upon others again.
Oh you'd like that wouldn't you, you naughty boy... :dom:
:P
In all seriousness, I didn't force you to click this thread and read my post. I'm not hovering over you making you surf the net, look at intensity or whack off to donkey porn, that's all you buddy.
There are a few people here who are interested in me, my well being how I'm doing and shit like that, just thought I'd give them an update, if they so chose to read the post.
So perhaps maybe you should...Well...why don't I just parrot you back at yourself:
Fuck off, will you? :eyelash:
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I like to see how things are progressing....
As such, posts such as this are for you. :)
Don't photoshop GA, the just woken up pic is a good one.
Thanks.
This is one of my most recent photos
(http://galileoace.com/Uploaded/2010.05/curls_kb.jpg)
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I investigated getting IPL (a permanent hair removal option using intense pulsed light (hence the acronym))...$400 a session! And I'd need at least 4 sessions!!
I can't afford $1600 :(
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I investigated getting IPL (a permanent hair removal option using intense pulsed light (hence the acronym))...$400 a session! And I'd need at least 4 sessions!!
I can't afford $1600 :(
Eventually though, at some point you might get it. You're still pretty young, but yeah, it would take a while to save up.
It doesn't look like your hair is that thick or coarse though, and your skin looks fairly soft, but I guess it's the 5 o'clock shadow thing that is the problem to keep on top of and just an annoying reminder :(
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I investigated getting IPL (a permanent hair removal option using intense pulsed light (hence the acronym))...$400 a session! And I'd need at least 4 sessions!!
I can't afford $1600 :(
Eventually though, at some point you might get it. You're still pretty young, but yeah, it would take a while to save up.
It doesn't look like your hair is that thick or coarse though, and your skin looks fairly soft, but I guess it's the 5 o'clock shadow thing that is the problem to keep on top of and just an annoying reminder :(
Definitely the shadow. My skin is getting thinner and softer with the estrogen, which makes the facial hair shadow obvious even after close shaving.
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$1600 is cheap compared to sexual reassignment surgery. They don't call him Dr. Money just 'cause that's his actual name.
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$1600 is cheap compared to sexual reassignment surgery. They don't call him Dr. Money just 'cause that's his actual name.
Quite true. Sadly enough :(
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How much is estrogen therapy where you are? DK if that's the correct term.
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How much is estrogen therapy where you are? DK if that's the correct term.
I take both Spironolactone (anti-androgens) and Progynova (estradiol valerate (ie: estrogen)).
Spiro is $5.40 for a bottle of 100 pills. I take 2 a day.
Progynova is about $16 for three boxes of 56 pills. And I take 2 a day of them too.
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In Sweden the state pays.
Just pretend you're an Arab or Serb or sumpthin, and you'll get a gender change and a citizenship for free.
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That sounds reasonable.
BTW, I haven't said this before, but I think you're :viking: both for doing this and talking openly about it. People have weird ideas about sexuality and think that if you're born as one sex then God or the FSM meant it that way. The idea that mistakes can be made is too much for their mainframes. But this aspect of sexuality is something that needs to be talked about. Full disclosure: I knew a guy who was much happier once he started becoming she.
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That sounds reasonable.
I am covered under the government's Medicare PBS (pharmaceuticals benefits scheme), hence why the Spiro is $5.40. And I get the progynova cheap too...for some reason.
Normally it would've been
Spiro (100mg)(100) - $30.32
Estrogen (1mg)(56x3) - $20.80
BTW, I haven't said this before, but I think you're :viking: both for doing this and talking openly about it. People have weird ideas about sexuality and think that if you're born as one sex than God or the FSM meant it that way. The idea that mistakes can be made is too much for their mainframes. But this is something that needs to be talked about. I knew a guy who was much happier once he started becoming she.
Thank you :)
I'm certainly alot happier than I have ever been before... Kinda like living your whole life in shadows and then suddenly someone opens the blinds. It's a bit startling to realise that the times I felt happy previously were but a glimmer. Or something... :asthing:
In Sweden the state pays.
Just pretend you're an Arab or Serb or sumpthin, and you'll get a gender change and a citizenship for free.
:eyebrow: Really?
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The state pays for your gender change, yes. And it's pretty easy to get a Swedish citizenship or at least a permanent permit to stay.
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Damn. All they need to do is amend their gun and drug laws and I'll sign up in a hot second. I always wanted to have dual citizenship. We're all citizens of the world/universe, anyway.
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BION, I went to Hulu to check out last week's Family Guy and the topic du jour was Quagmire's dad getting sexual reassignment surgery. It's that usual blend of hilarity mixed with honesty, esp. people's reactions. Here it is: http://www.hulu.com/watch/144903/family-guy-quagmires-dad#s-p1-so-i0
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Consider how much attention you were getting before you decided to do anything about this verses how much attention you are getting now.
I think you are enjoying the attention more than anything.
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Hello again.
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Consider how much attention you were getting before you decided to do anything about this verses how much attention you are getting now.
I think you are enjoying the attention more than anything.
I won't lie; that certainly is a possibility.
But it does contrast against the fact I used to hate attention...Or most types of attention. For example, when playing hockey when I scored a goal (an albeit infrequent occurrence) I used to be very embarrassed by all the cheering and "good on ya's" I'd get from the crowd or team mates.
Things have changed in me. I'm more open and more social-able. There's a dress-up party I'm going to later this month that I'm absolutely psyched for. This is the kind of party I would've said no thanks to only a a year or two ago.
I can only think either I'm going insane and making shit up, or the hormones are making emotional changes that resonate within me. Or that I'm just enjoying the fact most of my friends now call me Kayleigh and generally treat me as a girl.
So yes, a definite possibility, but it's different sorts of attention.
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I say good on you for following your heart and I hope it all works out well for you. I have to admit, I don't really feel any strong sense of gender identity myself, so I find it hard to imagine what it must be like to be born one gender but feel such a strong sense of gender identity towards the opposite gender that you would choose to make the change.
:plus: for being brave enough to talk about it and risk nasty replies, because I find the whole issue interesting. :thumbup:
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Consider how much attention you were getting before you decided to do anything about this verses how much attention you are getting now.
I think you are enjoying the attention more than anything.
I won't lie; that certainly is a possibility.
But it does contrast against the fact I used to hate attention...Or most types of attention. For example, when playing hockey when I scored a goal (an albeit infrequent occurrence) I used to be very embarrassed by all the cheering and "good on ya's" I'd get from the crowd or team mates.
Things have changed in me. I'm more open and more social-able. There's a dress-up party I'm going to later this month that I'm absolutely psyched for. This is the kind of party I would've said no thanks to only a a year or two ago.
I can only think either I'm going insane and making shit up, or the hormones are making emotional changes that resonate within me. Or that I'm just enjoying the fact most of my friends now call me Kayleigh and generally treat me as a girl.
So yes, a definite possibility, but it's different sorts of attention.
It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
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Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
could say the same thing about your AS :-\
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Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
could say the same thing about your AS :-\
We are all attention-seekers.
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Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
could say the same thing about your AS :-\
I currently see no medical personal over my AS and haven't for at least 5 years. So no, you can't say the same thing about my AS.
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Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
could say the same thing about your AS :-\
We are all attention-seekers.
:asthing: :notes: :soph: :notes: :asthing: I'm not! :asthing: :notes: :soph: :notes: :asthing:
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It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
:eyebrow: I don't see my relationship with my friends in that way. That's...a bit competitive. I don't compete with my friends, I just share their company, we are all equals in my eyes, and I believe they share the same view.
Yes, I enjoy seeing my psychologist because she is someone I can talk to about the good and the bad in my life. I can say I could probably do without seeing my psychiatrist but I have to see him every now and then. And the endocrinologist is a good idea to see, but I certainly don't relish the full body physicals...
What are you getting at anyway?
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How long till you get your pecker cut off and what do they do with it?
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It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
:eyebrow: I don't see my relationship with my friends in that way. That's...a bit competitive. I don't compete with my friends, I just share their company, we are all equals in my eyes, and I believe they share the same view.
Yes, I enjoy seeing my psychologist because she is someone I can talk to about the good and the bad in my life. I can say I could probably do without seeing my psychiatrist but I have to see him every now and then. And the endocrinologist is a good idea to see, but I certainly don't relish the full body physicals...
What are you getting at anyway?
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
From what I can see you are trying to relish as much as possible the fact that you are living your life openly.
Aside from my own feelings about how Renaeden must feel about that, I can only see what you are doing as a good thing, and you seem to be enjoying it.
I don't see that as attention seeking, I see that as finally being able to live your life in the truth of what you are and what you are feeling, and I really admire that.
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How long till you get your pecker cut off and what do they do with it?
They don't cut it off. It's inverted and used to create the vagina.
And that's years away.
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
From what I can see you are trying to relish as much as possible the fact that you are living your life openly.
Aside from my own feelings about how Renaeden must feel about that, I can only see what you are doing as a good thing, and you seem to be enjoying it.
I don't see that as attention seeking, I see that as finally being able to live your life in the truth of what you are and what you are feeling, and I really admire that.
There are many aspects I don't enjoy, such as how it affects renaeden. But yes it is nice to begin feeling like I fit.
Thank you
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How long till you get your pecker cut off and what do they do with it?
They don't cut it off. It's inverted and used to create the vagina.
And that's years away.
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
From what I can see you are trying to relish as much as possible the fact that you are living your life openly.
Aside from my own feelings about how Renaeden must feel about that, I can only see what you are doing as a good thing, and you seem to be enjoying it.
I don't see that as attention seeking, I see that as finally being able to live your life in the truth of what you are and what you are feeling, and I really admire that.
There are many aspects I don't enjoy, such as how it affects renaeden. But yes it is nice to begin feeling like I fit.
Thank you
That sound way to painful
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How long till you get your pecker cut off and what do they do with it?
They don't cut it off. It's inverted and used to create the vagina.
And that's years away.
That sound way to painful
I'm sure they anaesthetise you first...But yes, from what I've learned it is painful.
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It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
:eyebrow: I don't see my relationship with my friends in that way. That's...a bit competitive. I don't compete with my friends, I just share their company, we are all equals in my eyes, and I believe they share the same view.
Yes, I enjoy seeing my psychologist because she is someone I can talk to about the good and the bad in my life. I can say I could probably do without seeing my psychiatrist but I have to see him every now and then. And the endocrinologist is a good idea to see, but I certainly don't relish the full body physicals...
What are you getting at anyway?
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
From what I can see you are trying to relish as much as possible the fact that you are living your life openly.
Aside from my own feelings about how Renaeden must feel about that, I can only see what you are doing as a good thing, and you seem to be enjoying it.
I don't see that as attention seeking, I see that as finally being able to live your life in the truth of what you are and what you are feeling, and I really admire that.
Well that's the thing, he seems to be enjoying it. No one in his position wants to wake up 10 years after its all over and feel exactly the same they did before they got into and realised that it fixed nothing.
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Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
could say the same thing about your AS :-\
We are all attention-seekers.
I'm a major attention whore. Like you didn't know that. :P
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I've heard that the Butthole Surfers used to show footage from a sexual reassign surgery during their concerts.
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Lmao. Thats a great way to get devoted fans. :zoinks:
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Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
could say the same thing about your AS :-\
We are all attention-seekers.
:asthing: :notes: :soph: :notes: :asthing: I'm not! :asthing: :notes: :soph: :notes: :asthing:
My bad. :P
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How long till you get your pecker cut off and what do they do with it?
They don't cut it off. It's inverted and used to create the vagina.
:o
Not sure I should ask but I'll bite anyway: how?
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Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
could say the same thing about your AS :-\
We are all attention-seekers.
I'm a major attention whore. Like you didn't know that. :P
I didn't. :orly:
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How long till you get your pecker cut off and what do they do with it?
They don't cut it off. It's inverted and used to create the vagina.
:o
Not sure I should ask but I'll bite anyway: how?
I was curious too, so I found this:
In male-to-female (MTF) reassignment surgery, the internal tissue of the penis is removed. The outer skin of the penis remains attached, but is inverted and inserted into the body cavity between the legs. This inverted penile tissue then becomes the vagina.
Similarly, the testicles are removed from the scrotum, and used to form the vulva and labia.
A clitoris is constructed using erectile tissue from the penis. This clitoris can be sexually stimulated and is capable of orgasm.
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anyone who even contemplates penis/vagina surgery is braver than i'll ever be :laugh:
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How long till you get your pecker cut off and what do they do with it?
They don't cut it off. It's inverted and used to create the vagina.
:o
Not sure I should ask but I'll bite anyway: how?
I was curious too, so I found this:
In male-to-female (MTF) reassignment surgery, the internal tissue of the penis is removed. The outer skin of the penis remains attached, but is inverted and inserted into the body cavity between the legs. This inverted penile tissue then becomes the vagina.
Similarly, the testicles are removed from the scrotum, and used to form the vulva and labia.
A clitoris is constructed using erectile tissue from the penis. This clitoris can be sexually stimulated and is capable of orgasm.
:zombiefuck:
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That's just... I don't know what it is. I don't know where to begin.
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And for my next trick I will turn myself into a poodle
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:rofl:
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It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
Well that's the thing, he seems to be enjoying it. No one in his position wants to wake up 10 years after its all over and feel exactly the same they did before they got into and realised that it fixed nothing.
GA aside, that is exactly why people get counselled through this process Phlexor, to explore the history and motivations of the person.
I've read some of GA's other links to his story and I think it's his business to go into, but in essence, this has been a long journey that started as a child.
I don't think GA is unrealistic to think that just changing gender is going to take life's problems away. But the enjoyment of finally realising a dream should be celebrated at every opportunity.
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It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
Well that's the thing, he seems to be enjoying it. No one in his position wants to wake up 10 years after its all over and feel exactly the same they did before they got into and realised that it fixed nothing.
GA aside, that is exactly why people get counselled through this process Phlexor, to explore the history and motivations of the person.
I've read some of GA's other links to his story and I think it's his business to go into, but in essence, this has been a long journey that started as a child.
I don't think GA is unrealistic to think that just changing gender is going to take life's problems away. But the enjoyment of finally realising a dream should be celebrated at every opportunity.
Anyone that has seen enough doctors and shrinks knows that 90% of them (made up figure) are idiots and morons. Hell a lot of them are doing it for the money even. Who'd want to go though all that with the possibility of a doctor like that in the chain. This sort of thing is a huge life change that isn't easily reversible if at all.
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It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
Well that's the thing, he seems to be enjoying it. No one in his position wants to wake up 10 years after its all over and feel exactly the same they did before they got into and realised that it fixed nothing.
GA aside, that is exactly why people get counselled through this process Phlexor, to explore the history and motivations of the person.
I've read some of GA's other links to his story and I think it's his business to go into, but in essence, this has been a long journey that started as a child.
I don't think GA is unrealistic to think that just changing gender is going to take life's problems away. But the enjoyment of finally realising a dream should be celebrated at every opportunity.
Anyone that has seen enough doctors and shrinks knows that 90% of them (made up figure) are idiots and morons. Hell a lot of them are doing it for the money even. Who'd want to go though all that with the possibility of a doctor like that in the chain. This sort of thing is a huge life change that isn't easily reversible if at all.
Well I believe that the counselling is a mandatory part of the process anyway.
As I said, reading GA's past thoughts about it, to become a woman became the only choice.
I guess the concept isn't that odd to me because I've known several people who have had the procedure, not only through my friend who is gay, but a very close family friend had the procedure to become a man done very late in life....these thoughts don't go away for some Phlexor and I think GA is at the age where they've been forced down only to come back repeatedly shows that there is at least a serious reason to consider going through this process.
Doesn't make a person's life any less prone to human struggles, but it's the identity that is important.
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It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
Well that's the thing, he seems to be enjoying it. No one in his position wants to wake up 10 years after its all over and feel exactly the same they did before they got into and realised that it fixed nothing.
GA aside, that is exactly why people get counselled through this process Phlexor, to explore the history and motivations of the person.
I've read some of GA's other links to his story and I think it's his business to go into, but in essence, this has been a long journey that started as a child.
I don't think GA is unrealistic to think that just changing gender is going to take life's problems away. But the enjoyment of finally realising a dream should be celebrated at every opportunity.
Anyone that has seen enough doctors and shrinks knows that 90% of them (made up figure) are idiots and morons. Hell a lot of them are doing it for the money even. Who'd want to go though all that with the possibility of a doctor like that in the chain. This sort of thing is a huge life change that isn't easily reversible if at all.
Well I believe that the counselling is a mandatory part of the process anyway.
As I said, reading GA's past thoughts about it, to become a woman became the only choice.
I guess the concept isn't that odd to me because I've known several people who have had the procedure, not only through my friend who is gay, but a very close family friend had the procedure to become a man done very late in life....these thoughts don't go away for some Phlexor and I think GA is at the age where they've been forced down only to come back repeatedly shows that there is at least a serious reason to consider going through this process.
Doesn't make a person's life any less prone to human struggles, but it's the identity that is important.
I think it's like cults. A lot of people in a cult probably end up feeling that they don't want to be there, but they have spend a lot of time and money and emotion in being there, that leaving isn't that easy. They can't even admit that they want to leave to anybody. Do you think some people who've have gender reassignment surgery end up feeling the same? I'd imagine that it would be really hard to admit you've made a mistake once you've had surgery like that and also admit it to people that you've probably argued against. I'd also imagine that these people would even encourage others to have have the surgery (those contemplating it only of course) just to further their denial.
What if I though I was emperor of Earth? Should doctors do everything in their power to put me in that position?
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From a practical point of view, trying to change gender/sex has no real benefit for a lot of things. It only shows insecurity and selfishness, that you care so much about what you are that you have to change it, rather than accept who you are. I normally don't care for this sort of thing, but GA did it despite the risk of wrecking his marriage for his own seflish gain, which ultimately means nothing but to prove that he's very insecure. On top of that, he expects everyone to embrace that he went from man-child to slightly less male man-child when he himself cannot accept who he truly is.
That's why I told him to fuck off.
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I think it's like cults. A lot of people in a cult probably end up feeling that they don't want to be there, but they have spend a lot of time and money and emotion in being there, that leaving isn't that easy. They can't even admit that they want to leave to anybody. Do you think some people who've have gender reassignment surgery end up feeling the same? I'd imagine that it would be really hard to admit you've made a mistake once you've had surgery like that and also admit it to people that you've probably argued against. I'd also imagine that these people would even encourage others to have have the surgery (those contemplating it only of course) just to further their denial.
What if I though I was emperor of Earth? Should doctors do everything in their power to put me in that position?
After I posted I realised you may have meant the surgery specifically. And yes, it does fail at times. And sometimes, as much as people would like to have the surgery, they don't for a variety of reasons.
I understand that concept.
But if someone feels strongly about going through the process, (with or without getting the surgery done), then for me, I think that's what they must do, rather than make everyone around them miserable because they are bitter and filled with regret. Going through the process is obviously an integral part in order to make the most informed choice about whether or not to have the surgery anyway.
This process for GA may fail, and a lot could be lost, his relationship etc. But the choice has been made nonetheless, and the fact that GA is enjoying it is a positive sign, if nothing else.
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From a practical point of view, trying to change gender/sex has no real benefit for a lot of things. It only shows insecurity and selfishness, that you care so much about what you are that you have to change it, rather than accept who you are. I normally don't care for this sort of thing, but GA did it despite the risk of wrecking his marriage for his own seflish gain, which ultimately means nothing but to prove that he's very insecure. On top of that, he expects everyone to embrace that he went from man-child to slightly less male man-child when he himself cannot accept who he truly is.
That's why I told him to fuck off.
Why should GA accept being a male, if deep down there was always a feeling that 'he' was meant to be a she?
I know people think 'he' is being selfish in regard to the relationship, and I get that and have NO idea how that would feel if my partner was going through this.
I would hope though that I would stay true to my philosophy on love, and do anything I could to at least embrace the fact that the person I loved was ultimately finding their own path to happiness.
But that's my own personal slant on what love is about. Love is never about taking someone else's choices and rights away. And I would much rather a partner be honest with me about what would make them happy then force it down for years. That would devastate me personally, and I would have felt my whole life with that person had been based on a lie. Your partner should be your closest friend.
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Why should GA accept being a male, if deep down there was always a feeling that 'he' was meant to be a she?
Because he was born as he was. Most of us don't want to be born the way we are, but you just have to accept you for who you are and get on with life. Trying to change yourself means you're too put up with your own personal means rather than the big picture.
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Why should GA accept being a male, if deep down there was always a feeling that 'he' was meant to be a she?
Because he was born as he was. Most of us don't want to be born the way we are, but you just have to accept you for who you are and get on with life. Trying to change yourself means you're too put up with your own personal means rather than the big picture.
GA did try and it didn't work.
Your opinion is no surprise about just accepting it and getting on with your life ie; pretending to be something you're not.
It's kind of like how you when you posted gay porn raised questions for me about why the hell you'd be looking at male porn in the first place if you have a girlfriend, and obviously bothered to save it on your computer to post here.
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Your opinion is no surprise about just accepting it and getting on with your life ie; pretending to be something you're not.
But changing your sex *is* pretending to be something you're not. He was born a male and should accept who he is. Trying to be female won't make a difference for him, apart from fufill his own selfish needs. Personally I don't identify with a lot of males myself, but I feel no need to change sex because of that.
The same thing could be said for a lot of things - AS for example. A lot of us have it, but live with it - trying to fight it or change it won't do anything.
It's kind of like how you when you posted gay porn raised questions for me about why the hell you'd be looking at male porn in the first place if you have a girlfriend, and obviously bothered to save it on your computer to post here.
Because I wanted to show my point in a direct and shocking manner. I feel no need to defend my sexuality on this matter because I'm not insecure about it, as in wearing big t-shirts saying "I'M STRAIGHT!" similar to how GA is all "I'M FEMALE!". If I want to use gay porn to illustrate a point, I will. :orly:
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I will never be able to convince people like Phlexor and Shleed. But this doesn't mean their opinions are invalid. What they've posted here I've already thought about at length many times. And discussed them with my psychologist many times. It's really circular. If I really only just insecure about who I am I wouldn't have pointed myself in the transgender direction. There are many other "delusions" that could've presented itself to help me overcome my "insecurity", such as narcissism, or borderline personality.
*shrugs* As I said, I won't be able to convince anyone who isn't already open minded to trans issues. There is no analogies, there is no explanations, nothing that would put it in a frame that they could understand. And I understand why they don't understand. It's a complex, confusing issue. But one that has presented itself throughout history, and throughout the animal kingdom.
If I were so insecure about my gender identity, don't you think I'd have corrected all these "he" pronouns you're all using? But, as you feel no need to defend your sexuality Shleed, I too feel no need to defend my gender identity.
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Why should GA accept being a male, if deep down there was always a feeling that 'he' was meant to be a she?
Because he was born as he was. Most of us don't want to be born the way we are, but you just have to accept you for who you are and get on with life. Trying to change yourself means you're too put up with your own personal means rather than the big picture.
GA did try and it didn't work.
Your opinion is no surprise about just accepting it and getting on with your life ie; pretending to be something you're not.
It's kind of like how you when you posted gay porn raised questions for me about why the hell you'd be looking at male porn in the first place if you have a girlfriend, and obviously bothered to save it on your computer to post here.
GA is pretending to be a female, when he is clearly a male. If he was born with female genitalia, then he wouldn't be pretending to be female. Trying to be something is as much bullshit as the concept of gender. You are who you are, regardless of what sex you happen to be.
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You are who you are, regardless of what sex you happen to be.
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From a practical point of view, trying to change gender/sex has no real benefit for a lot of things. It only shows insecurity and selfishness, that you care so much about what you are that you have to change it, rather than accept who you are. I normally don't care for this sort of thing, but GA did it despite the risk of wrecking his marriage for his own seflish gain, which ultimately means nothing but to prove that he's very insecure. On top of that, he expects everyone to embrace that he went from man-child to slightly less male man-child when he himself cannot accept who he truly is.
That's why I told him to fuck off.
Ultimately, if you aren't happy with what you are, you won't be able to make those around you happy, either. And just as importantly, we are all selfish, first and foremost. You, me, GA, everyone.
You are one of the last persons I'd expect to attack GA from a seemingly altruistic point of view and I don't buy it. You are trying to provoke, as simple as that.
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Ultimately, if you aren't happy with what you are, you won't be able to make those around you happy, either. And just as importantly, we are all selfish, first and foremost. You, me, GA, everyone.
I admit that I am selfish, however I won't ruin a relationship just to get my own way. Emma loves me for who I am, changing my sex would disturb her as she's not particularly into that thing. In other words, If I change sex then I'm subtley forcing her to accept something that she doesn't want.
You are one of the last persons I'd expect to attack GA from a seemingly altruistic point of view and I don't buy it. You are trying to provoke, as simple as that.
I am only telling him what I honestly think. Trying to change yourself to become happy usually is a neverending upward spiral that to me is more difficult in the long run than accept for who you are.
In my opinion, wasting money to change your appearance is pretty much silly. That money could be spent on far more useful and functional things.
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I'm still wondering how the hell GA would afford much more than GA is currently doing.
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Your opinion is no surprise about just accepting it and getting on with your life ie; pretending to be something you're not.
But changing your sex *is* pretending to be something you're not. He was born a male and should accept who he is. Trying to be female won't make a difference for him, apart from fufill his own selfish needs. Personally I don't identify with a lot of males myself, but I feel no need to change sex because of that.
The same thing could be said for a lot of things - AS for example. A lot of us have it, but live with it - trying to fight it or change it won't do anything.
There always have been people identifying with the other sex more than their own gender.
Now there is the surgical skill and hormone knowledge to come a long way in making that identification more real.
Can't see what the problem is.
It's not like GA is going for the appearance of the most stunning female model in the world. Wanting all the attention in the world. She just wants a female body because she identifies herself with females.
You don't identify with a lot of males, so be it. You don't identify that strong with females that you think you should be one either. You find your own way and are ok with that.
Yes, it must be extremely hard for Ren. Will be hard for GA too, but, GA is the one in control here. And Ren isn't. That is theirs to deal with. And yes, it would probably have been convenient had GA realised sooner. But how is hindsight wisdom going to help. Doesn't change a thing in the present.
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The problem isn't that they were born as the "wrong" gender. I know a person who was pretty masculine but then "changed" gender through surgery. Now "she" is looking for girls(!)
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The problem isn't that they were born as the "wrong" gender. I know a person who was pretty masculine but then "changed" gender through surgery. Now "she" is looking for girls(!)
Every She is allowed to be a lesbian.
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The problem isn't that they were born as the "wrong" gender. I know a person who was pretty masculine but then "changed" gender through surgery. Now "she" is looking for girls(!)
Every She is allowed to be a lesbian.
Of course. I just find it peculiar that a male would like to be surgically changed into a female to become it.
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The problem isn't that they were born as the "wrong" gender. I know a person who was pretty masculine but then "changed" gender through surgery. Now "she" is looking for girls(!)
Every She is allowed to be a lesbian.
Of course. I just find it peculiar that a male would like to be surgically changed into a female to become it.
His wish probably was not becoming a lesbian, but becoming female.
And you´ll never know what hormones will do until you experience them.
Funny stuff, hormones.
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The problem isn't that they were born as the "wrong" gender. I know a person who was pretty masculine but then "changed" gender through surgery. Now "she" is looking for girls(!)
Every She is allowed to be a lesbian.
Of course. I just find it peculiar that a male would like to be surgically changed into a female to become it.
His wish probably was not becoming a lesbian, but becoming female.
And you´ll never know what hormones will do until you experience them.
Funny stuff, hormones.
That's exactly what I find peculiar. I'm pretty sure his original wish was not to become lesbian.
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The problem isn't that they were born as the "wrong" gender. I know a person who was pretty masculine but then "changed" gender through surgery. Now "she" is looking for girls(!)
Every She is allowed to be a lesbian.
Of course. I just find it peculiar that a male would like to be surgically changed into a female to become it.
His wish probably was not becoming a lesbian, but becoming female.
And you´ll never know what hormones will do until you experience them.
Funny stuff, hormones.
That's exactly what I find peculiar. I'm pretty sure his original wish was not to become lesbian.
I wanted to be a boy till my hormones kicked in at age 11. Then those silly hormones kicked in, and I wanted to be female enough to get kids. Still didn't like the idea of getting breasts and all. Reallly a genderbender. After I got kids, another big hormonal shower, I became more and more female. Feeling more like a woman than I ever did before in life.
Hormones are weird stuff.
Think my sexual orientation changed more towards men than before too. Still not straight.
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Last year s/he fucked guys. Had some strange ideas about that too though. Only fucked with straight guys, no bisexuals or gays. They weren't "to be trusted". And this I've heard from many transvestites and transsexuals: they just want to fuck straight guys.
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Last year s/he fucked guys. Had some strange ideas about that too though. Only fucked with straight guys, no bisexuals or gays. They weren't "to be trusted". And this I've heard from many transvestites and transsexuals: they just want to fuck straight guys.
Now, that is weird indeed.
As weird as some men only wanting to have sex with virgins.
Makes no sense at all.
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Now, that is weird indeed.
As weird as some men only wanting to have sex with virgins.
Makes no sense at all.
the madonna-whore dictotymy- good girls won't know how bad their new lover is in the sack!
Last year s/he fucked guys. Had some strange ideas about that too though. Only fucked with straight guys, no bisexuals or gays. They weren't "to be trusted". And this I've heard from many transvestites and transsexuals: they just want to fuck straight guys.
GA, you mean?
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GA, you mean?
No, transvestite and transsexual acquantancies here in Sweden.
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hormones often change the person's sexuality after a sex change
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Ultimately, if you aren't happy with what you are, you won't be able to make those around you happy, either. And just as importantly, we are all selfish, first and foremost. You, me, GA, everyone.
I admit that I am selfish, however I won't ruin a relationship just to get my own way. Emma loves me for who I am, changing my sex would disturb her as she's not particularly into that thing. In other words, If I change sex then I'm subtley forcing her to accept something that she doesn't want.
I very much doubt GA would ruin his marriage just to get things his way. I also suspect he didn't knowingly deceive her or anything--it's just something that grew over time and was more and more difficult to ignore. Hell, the setting itself, marriage, might have set it off.
That you wouldn't do something like it only tells us that you don't know what he is going through but are willing to judge him anyway. It is conceivable that things become less black and white in a few years' time.
(Incidentally I don't know what it's like, either, but I'm not as uick to judge as you are.)
You are one of the last persons I'd expect to attack GA from a seemingly altruistic point of view and I don't buy it. You are trying to provoke, as simple as that.
I am only telling him what I honestly think. Trying to change yourself to become happy usually is a neverending upward spiral that to me is more difficult in the long run than accept for who you are.
In my opinion, wasting money to change your appearance is pretty much silly. That money could be spent on far more useful and functional things.
In your opinion.
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Ultimately, if you aren't happy with what you are, you won't be able to make those around you happy, either. And just as importantly, we are all selfish, first and foremost. You, me, GA, everyone.
I admit that I am selfish, however I won't ruin a relationship just to get my own way. Emma loves me for who I am, changing my sex would disturb her as she's not particularly into that thing. In other words, If I change sex then I'm subtley forcing her to accept something that she doesn't want.
I very much doubt GA would ruin his marriage just to get things his way. I also suspect he didn't knowingly deceive her or anything--it's just something that grew over time and was more and more difficult to ignore. Hell, the setting itself, marriage, might have set it off.
That you wouldn't do something like it only tells us that you don't know what he is going through but are willing to judge him anyway. It is conceivable that things become less black and white in a few years' time.
(Incidentally I don't know what it's like, either, but I'm not as uick to judge as you are.)
Some of the things GA has done in his marriage (that I've heard of) have been rather douchey, but the sex change thing is IMO an issue of unfortunate self-realization.
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Ultimately, if you aren't happy with what you are, you won't be able to make those around you happy, either. And just as importantly, we are all selfish, first and foremost. You, me, GA, everyone.
I admit that I am selfish, however I won't ruin a relationship just to get my own way. Emma loves me for who I am, changing my sex would disturb her as she's not particularly into that thing. In other words, If I change sex then I'm subtley forcing her to accept something that she doesn't want.
I very much doubt GA would ruin his marriage just to get things his way. I also suspect he didn't knowingly deceive her or anything--it's just something that grew over time and was more and more difficult to ignore. Hell, the setting itself, marriage, might have set it off.
That you wouldn't do something like it only tells us that you don't know what he is going through but are willing to judge him anyway. It is conceivable that things become less black and white in a few years' time.
(Incidentally I don't know what it's like, either, but I'm not as uick to judge as you are.)
Some of the things GA has done in his marriage (that I've heard of) have been rather douchey, but the sex change thing is IMO an issue of unfortunate self-realization.
That's what I think, too.
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how have reactions to your being trans been irl btw? do you get comments off people when you go out or are you not openly trans in public?
I'm now more out in public. Not to everyone mind you. But a few key select people. And their reactions are generally positive and supportive. I haven't gotten any negative responses beyond maybe one or two people just brushing it aside.
I guess it's hard to be negative in person...Well at least for tactful non-autistic people :asthing: :P
I'm panromantic, heteroattracted asexual (if you go by my current body, homoattracted if you use my gender). But it's also possible that I'm only asexual because of body dysphoria. It's not the right body so I can't fathom having sex with it.
But even then...I don't think sex would ever be a big deal to me.
As a girl I'm gay and I doubt that will change, but I am open to the possibility of also being attracted to some men. I don't know how likely that is, but hopes it's not likely. But I'm still open minded.
I wondered the same thing since you came out as trans. It surprises me that you don't know, either, though I suppose you have know way of knowing until you actually have made the change to the degree of completion that you want to.
What do you mean?
I guess I was surprised that you didn't feel more certain about how your being asexual relates to your being trans, but then realized you coudln't be 100% sure until you changed your body to whatever degree of completion you're aiming for (I forget what that is and can't be arsed to look it up- I thought for awhile you weren't even going on hormones, but that's changed now, so I decided not to make assumptions).
Whilst I can have a (non-sexual) relationship with anyone of any gender, I'm normally attracted only to girls, or female-type people. Except recently, I've been able to "appreciate" how some guys appear. So..that's different.
I admit that I am selfish, however I won't ruin a relationship just to get my own way. Emma loves me for who I am, changing my sex would disturb her as she's not particularly into that thing. In other words, If I change sex then I'm subtley forcing her to accept something that she doesn't want.
If she loves you for who you are then it wouldn't matter if you changed sex. You'd still be you. And if you did want to change and you knew she couldn't handle it so you decide not to, isn't she subtly forcing you to accept something you don't want?
In my opinion, wasting money to change your appearance is pretty much silly. That money could be spent on far more useful and functional things.
Have you ever had a haircut? Bought some fancy new clothes?
I'm still wondering how the hell GA would afford much more than GA is currently doing.
What do you mean?
But changing your sex *is* pretending to be something you're not. He was born a male and should accept who he is. Trying to be female won't make a difference for him, apart from fufill his own selfish needs. Personally I don't identify with a lot of males myself, but I feel no need to change sex because of that.
The same thing could be said for a lot of things - AS for example. A lot of us have it, but live with it - trying to fight it or change it won't do anything.
You're argument is flawed. If we shouldn't try to fight AS, then why should I fight GID? I have a desire, innate, in built, to be female. To be treated as female. Should I just accept this, who I am? Or should I fight it? And who except what I was born with?
Yes, it must be extremely hard for Ren. Will be hard for GA too, but, GA is the one in control here. And Ren isn't. That is theirs to deal with. And yes, it would probably have been convenient had GA realised sooner. But how is hindsight wisdom going to help. Doesn't change a thing in the present.
It was the hardest decision I've ever had to make. And yes I'm the cause of massive instability in renaeden's life. I feel like shit. Like the worst person.
But how can I expect her to love me, if I don't? How can I expect anyone to love me, if I don't love myself?
The problem isn't that they were born as the "wrong" gender. I know a person who was pretty masculine but then "changed" gender through surgery. Now "she" is looking for girls(!)
Every She is allowed to be a lesbian.
Of course. I just find it peculiar that a male would like to be surgically changed into a female to become it.
Transgenderism/Transsexualism has nothing to do with sexuality.
Some of the things GA has done in his marriage (that I've heard of) have been rather douchey, but the sex change thing is IMO an issue of unfortunate self-realization.
Such as?
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Good luck too you so much elective surgery would drive me nuts
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Good luck too you so much elective surgery would drive me nuts
That's a long way off. I'll stick to hormones for now ;)
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Good luck too you so much elective surgery would drive me nuts
That's a long way off. I'll stick to hormones for now ;)
I would dwell on it constantly you must have better will power than I
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Good luck too you so much elective surgery would drive me nuts
That's a long way off. I'll stick to hormones for now ;)
I would dwell on it constantly you must have better will power than I
Well I haven't made that decision concrete. To me it's still a nebulous thing several years from now. And the only reason I want to do it is to change the gender marker on my birth certificate. If I could do that with out SRS I probably wouldn't bother. It's not like I need the plumbing; I don't have sex. I have no special enmity toward my male plumbing *shrugs*
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I never think about my birth certificate.
You were born with male genitalia lol. You would have to go back in time and change your sex right there to make your actual birth certificate (the one that was made at the time you were actually born) say that you are a female. I guess they would make you a new birth certificate that says your "gender" is female when you could officially be declared due to your sex change. That still isn't your real birth certificate, it is the one they would be making for you after the fact to accommodate for your sex change. You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
You are taking hormones and considering surgery because of your birth certificate? Seriously.
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The problem isn't that they were born as the "wrong" gender. I know a person who was pretty masculine but then "changed" gender through surgery. Now "she" is looking for girls(!)
Every She is allowed to be a lesbian.
Of course. I just find it peculiar that a male would like to be surgically changed into a female to become it.
I find it peculiar that people would want to play with shit when they fuck.
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:orly:
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Last year s/he fucked guys. Had some strange ideas about that too though. Only fucked with straight guys, no bisexuals or gays. They weren't "to be trusted". And this I've heard from many transvestites and transsexuals: they just want to fuck straight guys.
Now, that is weird indeed.
As weird as some men only wanting to have sex with virgins.
Makes no sense at all.
I think the obsession with straight guys is somehow being the guy who 'turned them' into being gay.
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I never think about my birth certificate.
I imagine few people would. I figure Norrie, in Sydney, is constantly thinking about it.
You were born with male genitalia lol.
Oh yes. Haha. Quite funny. A universal joke if you will. :-\
You would have to go back in time and change your sex right there to make your actual birth certificate (the one that was made at the time you were actually born) say that you are a female. I guess they would make you a new birth certificate that says your "gender" is female when you could officially be declared due to your sex change. That still isn't your real birth certificate, it is the one they would be making for you after the fact to accommodate for your sex change.
I aim to change my officially registered sex/gender on my officially registered birth certificate.
Either via this (http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/CA2574F700805DE7/page/Births-Sex+affirmation?OpenDocument&1=10-Births~&2=60-Sex+affirmation~&3=~) or this (http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/G/gender_reassignment.aspx?uid=1118-4864-8878-1395).
You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
No. I do not see it that way.
You are taking hormones and considering surgery because of your birth certificate? Seriously.
No.
I am considering surgery primarily for the birth certificate, it is important that I legally been seen as female. But it's not the only reason I would consider surgery.
And I'm taking hormones to have as close to a physical female body as is medically possible.
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Some of the things GA has done in his marriage (that I've heard of) have been rather douchey, but the sex change thing is IMO an issue of unfortunate self-realization.
I can't comment specifically, but it would make sense if someone was struggling with an inner frustration about their gender (or something equally as significant) to take that out in other ways. I'm sure we've all done it.
Also, GA had thought those feelings had been pushed down. Struggling with inner demons, probably feeling unable to broach the subject with Ren until 'he' felt sure that it was unavoidable would be another strain. That would cause a lot of frustration and anxiety, which of course impacts on close relationships, regardless of the issue.
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Transgenderism/Transsexualism has nothing to do with sexuality.
If you don't identify yourself with a sexual gender, why is your gender an issue at all? I sometimes wish I had a bigger cock, but that's because I identify myself as a male. If I identified myself as a female, that would be of no importance whatsoever.
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Transgenderism/Transsexualism has nothing to do with sexuality.
If you don't identify yourself with a sexual gender, why is your gender an issue at all? I sometimes wish I had a bigger cock, but that's because I identify myself as a male. If I identified myself as a female, that would be of no importance whatsoever.
Um...HUH!?
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Why want a gender change, if you don't identify yourself with that gender's gender specific sexuality in the first place?
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Why want a gender change, if you don't identify yourself with that gender's gender specific sexuality in the first place?
Genders don't have specific sexualities.
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Why want a gender change, if you don't identify yourself with that gender's gender specific sexuality in the first place?
Genders don't have specific sexualities.
Statistically they have. Most males want to have sex with females and vice versa.
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Why want a gender change, if you don't identify yourself with that gender's gender specific sexuality in the first place?
Genders don't have specific sexualities.
Statistically they have. Most males want to have sex with females and vice versa.
Irrelevant.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports
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Why want a gender change, if you don't identify yourself with that gender's gender specific sexuality in the first place?
Genders don't have specific sexualities.
Statistically they have. Most males want to have sex with females and vice versa.
Why is sex now in the subject? I thought GA had always been asexual (although this might be because of the suppressed female issues, so not sexually interested in what was forced on 'him' by society as a male ie; 'he' never entertained sexual encounters because society deemed that it must be with women)
From what GA has said, the crux of the issue is 'he' always felt that inside 'he' was a girl....but born with the wrong body.
The sexual thing is secondary and seperate to that, as far as I can tell (I'm just spewing out my own thoughts here).
After all, wanting to be a girl at pre pubescent stage has NOTHING to do with sex, but EVERYTHING to do with what you feel inside.
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sexuality has nothing to do with being transgendered. i would still be trans even if i was attracted to men.
You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
[/quote]
gender is not the same as gender role. I don't particularly fit either gender role
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It could be the crowd you are getting attention from. In your new circle of friends, you could be higher up the pecking order compared to the general population. Plus there is the medical attention from doctors and shrinks.
I'm a bit baffled as to why Phlexor made the comment about attention seeking.
Well that's the thing, he seems to be enjoying it. No one in his position wants to wake up 10 years after its all over and feel exactly the same they did before they got into and realised that it fixed nothing.
GA aside, that is exactly why people get counselled through this process Phlexor, to explore the history and motivations of the person.
I've read some of GA's other links to his story and I think it's his business to go into, but in essence, this has been a long journey that started as a child.
I don't think GA is unrealistic to think that just changing gender is going to take life's problems away. But the enjoyment of finally realising a dream should be celebrated at every opportunity.
Anyone that has seen enough doctors and shrinks knows that 90% of them (made up figure) are idiots and morons. Hell a lot of them are doing it for the money even. Who'd want to go though all that with the possibility of a doctor like that in the chain. This sort of thing is a huge life change that isn't easily reversible if at all.
Sturgeon's Law: 90 percent of EVERYTHING is crap.
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If she loves you for who you are then it wouldn't matter if you changed sex. You'd still be you. And if you did want to change and you knew she couldn't handle it so you decide not to, isn't she subtly forcing you to accept something you don't want?
I'd rather accept myself than force a set of fake tits into her face. By the way you're saying it, we're both subtly forcing one another, yes? :orly:
She allows me to do whatever I want, but she's not into transexuals. The same goes for me, if she had a sex change then I'd be put off by her. Love goes on all levels, including physical attractiveness.
Have you ever had a haircut? Bought some fancy new clothes?
No, tried in the past but I realised I was just pissing money away on useless shit. I'm a function over form person. Aesthetics has little importance to me.
You're argument is flawed. If we shouldn't try to fight AS, then why should I fight GID? I have a desire, innate, in built, to be female. To be treated as female. Should I just accept this, who I am? Or should I fight it? And who except what I was born with?
It hints that you are insecure to the point of wanting to change sex. Does becoming female have actual benefits apart from your own vanity? I doubt it.
You're trying to say it's hardwired into you. I think it's purely psychological.
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She allows me to do whatever I want, but she's not into transexuals. The same goes for me, if she had a sex change then I'd be put off by her. Love goes on all levels, including physical attractiveness.
What if God forbid she was in an accident, and in a wheelchair, what if that put you off? Would you just get rid of her because she no longer met your 'ideal' of physical attractiveness?
The real concept of love is about being with someone through thick and thin. GA discussed this issue, as hard as it was, with Renaeden. As devastating as it must have been and will be for her and how that impacts on her own life, is a seperate issue from this thread and their own personal business if they do not want to discuss it.
But the original meaning of the word love, which has been fucked over so many times in the bible and by people in general, was 'steadfast'. Which means you will stand by someone no matter what, if you truly love them in the meaning of the word in the truest sense. Now that doesn't mean that they walk all over you, but what it does mean is you enable them to have their own experience of life, without smothering their own sense of self by what you 'wish' they were.
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What if God forbid she was in an accident, and in a wheelchair, what if that put you off? Would you just get rid of her because she no longer met your 'ideal' of physical attractiveness?
You're missing the point. If she changed sex, she would be male. I'm not into males, so I'd be put off. An accident does not change sex or anything to do with our relationship.
Part of love is all about respecting one another's viewpoints, not forcing it on one another.
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*shrugs*
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I never think about my birth certificate.
You were born with male genitalia lol. You would have to go back in time and change your sex right there to make your actual birth certificate (the one that was made at the time you were actually born) say that you are a female. I guess they would make you a new birth certificate that says your "gender" is female when you could officially be declared due to your sex change. That still isn't your real birth certificate, it is the one they would be making for you after the fact to accommodate for your sex change. You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
You are taking hormones and considering surgery because of your birth certificate? Seriously.
They edit your birth certificate when you're adopted, so why not for that?
Some of the things GA has done in his marriage (that I've heard of) have been rather douchey, but the sex change thing is IMO an issue of unfortunate self-realization.
I can't comment specifically, but it would make sense if someone was struggling with an inner frustration about their gender (or something equally as significant) to take that out in other ways. I'm sure we've all done it.
Also, GA had thought those feelings had been pushed down. Struggling with inner demons, probably feeling unable to broach the subject with Ren until 'he' felt sure that it was unavoidable would be another strain. That would cause a lot of frustration and anxiety, which of course impacts on close relationships, regardless of the issue.
*nod* Perhaps, but I won't rescind my statement. I think GA's innder turmoil over gender 'excuses' changing his/her sex even if his/her wife is a straight woman- the choice belongs to GA, transgenderism is something that runs quite deep and to ask GA to ignore something so intergral to GA's sense of self is, I think, taking the peanut gallery far beyond its limits- it's a deeply personal thing only GA can decide. (Similarly, the awful situation that places Ren in, as well as what it does to their marriage, is, I think, a hell of a thing to judge from the outside, especially if it's something you've not experienced yourself, which I have yet to hear any member say they have).
Being transgender does not, however, excuse being an inconsiderate douche in the name of (or under the guise of/with the excuse of) self-exploration, which, IMO, also occured.
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Being transgender does not, however, excuse being an inconsiderate douche in the name of (or under the guise of/with the excuse of) self-exploration, which, IMO, also occured.
Can you give me an example?
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sexuality has nothing to do with being transgendered. i would still be trans even if i was attracted to men.
You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
gender is not the same as gender role. I don't particularly fit either gender role
[/quote]Neither are even close to being real anyways. Your gender is a lie, just like the supposed role that fits your gender. They are both based on social perception.
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I never think about my birth certificate.
You were born with male genitalia lol. You would have to go back in time and change your sex right there to make your actual birth certificate (the one that was made at the time you were actually born) say that you are a female. I guess they would make you a new birth certificate that says your "gender" is female when you could officially be declared due to your sex change. That still isn't your real birth certificate, it is the one they would be making for you after the fact to accommodate for your sex change. You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
You are taking hormones and considering surgery because of your birth certificate? Seriously.
They edit your birth certificate when you're adopted, so why not for that?
Editing your birth certificate in the case of adoption is also a lie. Basically trying to reverse who your real parents are and change it to some people who adopted you and not your real birth parents. The legal purposes are another thing entirely, and are also complete bullshit.
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[
You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
No. I do not see it that way.
You are taking hormones and considering surgery because of your birth certificate? Seriously.
No.
I am considering surgery primarily for the birth certificate, it is important that I legally been seen as female. But it's not the only reason I would consider surgery.
And I'm taking hormones to have as close to a physical female body as is medically possible.
What do you hope to gain from being considered a female legally? Why is it important, other than it affecting how others see you... which is all perception.
If you don't see it that way, then it is all perception. Perception is how you see things. Whether you see gender the same way as I do or not, it is all due to your perception. Gender does not even exist in my eyes. Sex exists because it is how most animals (including humans) procreate. If we were all like the alien in Enemy Mine, then we could just impregnate ourselves and sex would not matter (as we would all be fully functioning hermaphrodites technically).
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Perception. Yes.
How people perceive and therefore interact with me. And how I perceive myself.
*shrugs*
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People in general are nicer to women than to men, so are you saying you are a big cry baby and want people to be nicer to you?
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Perception. Yes.
How people perceive and therefore interact with me. And how I perceive myself.
*shrugs*
Sucks to be you then.
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I never think about my birth certificate.
You were born with male genitalia lol. You would have to go back in time and change your sex right there to make your actual birth certificate (the one that was made at the time you were actually born) say that you are a female. I guess they would make you a new birth certificate that says your "gender" is female when you could officially be declared due to your sex change. That still isn't your real birth certificate, it is the one they would be making for you after the fact to accommodate for your sex change. You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
You are taking hormones and considering surgery because of your birth certificate? Seriously.
They edit your birth certificate when you're adopted, so why not for that?
Editing your birth certificate in the case of adoption is also a lie. Basically trying to reverse who your real parents are and change it to some people who adopted you and not your real birth parents. The legal purposes are another thing entirely, and are also complete bullshit.
Besides, wouldn't the government still keep the original copy of the birth certificate, and simply file revised copies along side it?
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I never think about my birth certificate.
You were born with male genitalia lol. You would have to go back in time and change your sex right there to make your actual birth certificate (the one that was made at the time you were actually born) say that you are a female. I guess they would make you a new birth certificate that says your "gender" is female when you could officially be declared due to your sex change. That still isn't your real birth certificate, it is the one they would be making for you after the fact to accommodate for your sex change. You are trying to make your sex match what you see as your gender role (because gender is all about perception socially, right?).
You are taking hormones and considering surgery because of your birth certificate? Seriously.
They edit your birth certificate when you're adopted, so why not for that?
Editing your birth certificate in the case of adoption is also a lie. Basically trying to reverse who your real parents are and change it to some people who adopted you and not your real birth parents. The legal purposes are another thing entirely, and are also complete bullshit.
Besides, wouldn't the government still keep the original copy of the birth certificate, and simply file revised copies along side it?
They usually keep stuff like that, at least here in the US I would think they do. I doubt they would destroy his original birth certificate just to make him feel better about himself.
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if someone is adopted, then their adopted parents are their real parents, regardless of birth. Same goes for gender, regardless of sex at birth
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Besides, wouldn't the government still keep the original copy of the birth certificate, and simply file revised copies along side it?
They usually keep stuff like that, at least here in the US I would think they do. I doubt they would destroy his original birth certificate just to make him feel better about himself.
That's what I thought. Such documentation would be essentially useful for any future criminal investigations like identity fraud, terrorism, etc involving that person. It's also important for certain legal situations too. So I doubt they'd destroy/edit the original, they would just create a revised copy.
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if someone is adopted, then their adopted parents are their real parents, regardless of birth. Same goes for gender, regardless of sex at birth
Genetically, they are not their real parents. Biological parents are what matters as far as DNA goes. As far as them being the people that raised the adopted child, then yes the adopted parents are "real" in the sense that they took care of and raised the child. You are really delusional lol. Gender has nothing to do with sex, other than what people think of you.
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I don't think Soph was talking about DNA.
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People in general are nicer to women than to men, so are you saying you are a big cry baby and want people to be nicer to you?
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. ::)
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I wasn't talking about DNA, no. Obviously their genetic parents are elsewhere, in the same wat that GA is technically male. But if you're raised by Person X, then Persin X uis your parent. I have people in my family who are technically not related to me. I still consider them family tho because they were raised by my family and we grew up together.Gender is the same imo. If you'reliving as a woman and identify as a woman,then you're a woman.
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I'm amazed how vehement some people can be on how someone wants to look and feel underneath his/her clothes.
What is the problem?
Is the thought that you might fall for someone who has an inverted penis for a vagina scary?
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I'm amazed how vehement some people can be on how someone wants to look and feel underneath his/her clothes.
What is the problem?
Is the thought that you might fall for someone who has an inverted penis for a vagina scary?
Yes, I'm a bit baffled why it's so hard to understand the concept.
I understand people's comments about the relationship side of things, but seriously if you read GA's blog on the feelings that have been there since childhood, it's not like this is a new thing.
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I'm amazed how vehement some people can be on how someone wants to look and feel underneath his/her clothes.
What is the problem?
Is the thought that you might fall for someone who has an inverted penis for a vagina scary?
Yes, I'm a bit baffled why it's so hard to understand the concept.
I understand people's comments about the relationship side of things, but seriously if you read GA's blog on the feelings that have been there since childhood, it's not like this is a new thing.
No, and it is not something that is contagious either. So no need to fear.
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People in general are nicer to women than to men, so are you saying you are a big cry baby and want people to be nicer to you?
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. ::)
You can roll your eyes all you want, but that's exactly what you are saying.
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I'm amazed how vehement some people can be on how someone wants to look and feel underneath his/her clothes.
What is the problem?
Is the thought that you might fall for someone who has an inverted penis for a vagina scary?
No, I just think you should accept the gender you got. It's not like being colour-blind or deaf or something.
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People in general are nicer to women than to men, so are you saying you are a big cry baby and want people to be nicer to you?
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. ::)
You can roll your eyes all you want, but that's exactly what you are saying.
Oh Wow,
And Soph must be wanting to be male, because statistically men still earn more than woman and still get a higher percentage of the prestigious jobs.
It all makes sense to me now.
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I'm amazed how vehement some people can be on how someone wants to look and feel underneath his/her clothes.
What is the problem?
Is the thought that you might fall for someone who has an inverted penis for a vagina scary?
No, I just think you should accept the gender you got. It's not like being colour-blind or deaf or something.
Amongst deaf people you'll find lots who don't want to be cured. And there are stories about colour-blind people refusing to get their vision for colour back too.
If a person has a mixed gender, a different one in psyche than in body, what then is the gender to be accepted?
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I'm amazed how vehement some people can be on how someone wants to look and feel underneath his/her clothes.
What is the problem?
Is the thought that you might fall for someone who has an inverted penis for a vagina scary?
No, I just think you should accept the gender you got. It's not like being colour-blind or deaf or something.
Stop. That means that you should accept 'normal hetero' sex and no shit play.
Why should GA accept what is the norm, when for so long the feelings have been there?
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People in general are nicer to women than to men, so are you saying you are a big cry baby and want people to be nicer to you?
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. ::)
You can roll your eyes all you want, but that's exactly what you are saying.
Oh Wow,
And Soph must be wanting to be male, because statistically men still earn more than woman and still get a higher percentage of the prestigious jobs.
It all makes sense to me now.
Do you even believe what you are saying there? I don't even know if soph has stated why she wants to be a male or even if I've listened. But GA has stated that he wants to be treated differently as a reason for changing gender, which is stupid.
Nobody can control what others do, so wishing that they would treat you differently and having to go though all that bullshit to get it is just retarded.
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People in general are nicer to women than to men, so are you saying you are a big cry baby and want people to be nicer to you?
Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. ::)
You can roll your eyes all you want, but that's exactly what you are saying.
Oh Wow,
And Soph must be wanting to be male, because statistically men still earn more than woman and still get a higher percentage of the prestigious jobs.
It all makes sense to me now.
Do you even believe what you are saying there? I don't even know if soph has stated why she wants to be a male or even if I've listened. But GA has stated that he wants to be treated differently as a reason for changing gender, which is stupid.
Nobody can control what others do, so wishing that they would treat you differently and having to go though all that bullshit to get it is just retarded.
No, of course I don't believe what I was saying there. I was being sarcastic.
You are right that no one of us has a way to control how others are going to treat us.
If that was the reason GA wanted to go through all this, I'm pretty sure a shrink would have called a halt to all the changing medications.
The only valid reason is that deep down, a person is not at home in the physical gender given at birth, because the experienced gender is different.
In the past, there was no further option than to just dress differently. Now there are options beyond that. And I cannot see what the problem is there.
There is strong psychological screening before someone is allowed to go through all this. It does amaze me that GA is put on hormones before having dressed and identified as a woman in every part of his life, over a year, that's what would have been required here I think. But every country has a protocol of its own. I don't know the ins and outs of Australia regulations.
Don't think that anywhere in the world where some ethics are applied in meds a sex change will be done lightly.
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Yes, I'm a bit baffled why it's so hard to understand the concept.
I don't understand such vanity at all, it's a weird concept to me.
Despite my physical flaws (being a fat cunt, hairy as fook, IMO not particularly attractive), I don't let them bog me down. I could easily change all of that, but accepting who I am gave me the most happiness. Instead of worrying about how I look, I'd rather worry about my education and other important things that we all have to do. I've no need to show off, I've no need to photoshop my face to an inch of itself. I just let the flaws show and leave it up to others to whether they accept/judge me. Even then, I wouldn't really care much anyway.
This is easier said than done though, but it's far more rewarding once you get there. To me, changing sex is not going to give the same happiness in the long run.
In the past, there was no further option than to just dress differently. Now there are options beyond that. And I cannot see what the problem is there.
The problem here is that you're basically forcing your partner to change their sexual orientation since you have changed sex. Why should people need to do that? If you're not into a particular sex, then it shouldn't be a crime for doing so.
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I'm amazed how vehement some people can be on how someone wants to look and feel underneath his/her clothes.
What is the problem?
Is the thought that you might fall for someone who has an inverted penis for a vagina scary?
No, I just think you should accept the gender you got. It's not like being colour-blind or deaf or something.
Stop. That means that you should accept 'normal hetero' sex and no shit play.
Why should GA accept what is the norm, when for so long the feelings have been there?
EMERIL BAYAM! :LOL:
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In the past, there was no further option than to just dress differently. Now there are options beyond that. And I cannot see what the problem is there.
The problem here is that you're basically forcing your partner to change their sexual orientation since you have changed sex. Why should people need to do that? If you're not into a particular sex, then it shouldn't be a crime for doing so.
Yes, the relation thing is a hard thing indeed. But all that is in hindsight. My guess is GA and Ren would have loved it if GA had realised before that trying to live as a man was not going to work, no matter how hard he tried.
That is a tough thing. And I don't envy them both. And I hope Ren gets out OK. Because it is horrible to see a partner change dramatically.
But apart from that. Even if it is hard, almost impossible, to think of GA without thinking of Ren too.
Thought more abstract. If a person, born physically male, with the notion to be female, wants to change the physical appearance, where is the problem for others?
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It is a bit of a fucked up journey, especially if you don't make a very good looking female. The fact remains though, we all have to do what makes each of us happy, individually. As long as its not killing anyone or taking away anyone else's freedom... whats it gonna hurt?
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The only valid reason is that deep down, a person is not at home in the physical gender given at birth, because the experienced gender is different.
True enough. I have feelings that have no logic to them. I do my best to apply some logical and/or sensible reasoning to them. It's how I think.
I have these crossgendered feelings, and I figure because I want people to treat me as a girl? Why? Why do I want people to treat me as a girl? Because I am a girl. But I'm physically male. Why do I have these crossgendered feelings?
It's all very circular. All I know, for sure, is that transitioning has made me more happier, more confident. It has raised my self esteem a bit. And I'm beginning to feel more...me?
You are right that no one of us has a way to control how others are going to treat us.
If that was the reason GA wanted to go through all this, I'm pretty sure a shrink would have called a halt to all the changing medications.
This is quite true. If my psychiatrist (who is basically "THE" guy to see in Perth about such things (though not the only psych)) thought I wasn't 100% he wouldn't have diagnosed me with Gender Identity Disorder. He would've suggested I seek counselling or something.
There is strong psychological screening before someone is allowed to go through all this. It does amaze me that GA is put on hormones before having dressed and identified as a woman in every part of his life, over a year, that's what would have been required here I think. But every country has a protocol of its own. I don't know the ins and outs of Australia regulations.
Don't think that anywhere in the world where some ethics are applied in meds a sex change will be done lightly.
RLT (Real Life Test) is no longer required before HRT. In any country that I know of. It's sometimes recommended, my psych recommended I experience being socialised with as a girl before I push forward, which I did with friends (which was his suggestion).
Australia doesn't have any set regulations of how you should go about it, but the generally accepted method is to see a psychiatrist for several sessions to be assessed and get some counselling. He/She then will approve you for HRT, possibly give you some names of trans-friendly endocrinologists whom you need to get a referral to from your GP. The psych will give you a letter to take along to the endo, along with your referral from the GP. The endo assesses you, requests a blood test, gives you a physical blah blah blah, and if you're healthy and the bloods check out away you go.
I also see a psychologist who is familiar with gender issues and autism, for my counselling and stuff.
It's a long process, it took me about a year or so to get to the endocrinologist.
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It is a bit of a fucked up journey, especially if you don't make a very good looking female. The fact remains though, we all have to do what makes each of us happy, individually. As long as its not killing anyone or taking away anyone else's freedom... whats it gonna hurt?
Happiness comes from within. If you aren't content with what you were born with, chances are that you won't be content if you change. Money, power, etc... do not make people happy. It isn't what you do that makes you happy, it is your outlook on life that does.
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I don't think Soph was talking about DNA.
That is all that matters. People can't hide from their DNA. Fooling yourself into thinking that you are something that you are not is the opposite of reality.
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I wasn't talking about DNA, no. Obviously their genetic parents are elsewhere, in the same wat that GA is technically male. But if you're raised by Person X, then Persin X uis your parent. I have people in my family who are technically not related to me. I still consider them family tho because they were raised by my family and we grew up together.Gender is the same imo. If you'reliving as a woman and identify as a woman,then you're a woman.
The people that raise you do the parenting, but they aren't your biological parents.
You can live as a robot and identify yourself as a robot, does not mean that you are a robot though.
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and you can tell me I'm not X,Y or Z and I can not give a shit what you think :zoinks:
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I don't think Soph was talking about DNA.
That is all that matters. People can't hide from their DNA. Fooling yourself into thinking that you are something that you are not is the opposite of reality.
:agreed:
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I don't think Soph was talking about DNA.
That is all that matters. People can't hide from their DNA. Fooling yourself into thinking that you are something that you are not is the opposite of reality.
:agreed:
X2
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and you can tell me I'm not X,Y or Z and I can not give a shit what you think :zoinks:
That is what perception is all about. As long as it doesn't get to you and you remain happy and content, you should be fine.
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I don't think Soph was talking about DNA.
That is all that matters. People can't hide from their DNA. Fooling yourself into thinking that you are something that you are not is the opposite of reality.
It's not about hiding from your DNA. I believe it's about interpreting the data that is there differently.
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The people that raise you do the parenting, but they aren't your biological parents.
What's the difference, from a practical point of view, if the adoptive parents did it basically from day one?
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and you can tell me I'm not X,Y or Z and I can not give a shit what you think :zoinks:
That is what perception is all about. As long as it doesn't get to you and you remain happy and content, you should be fine.
you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
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This thread is waxing all abstract and philosophic, or maybe it's just Alex doing that.
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Editing your birth certificate in the case of adoption is also a lie. Basically trying to reverse who your real parents are and change it to some people who adopted you and not your real birth parents. The legal purposes are another thing entirely, and are also complete bullshit.
Lol, well, if we're going to start talking about questions of morals, ethics, and what's right, why the hell are we talking about a legal document (or any part of the legal/governmental system)?
Besides, wouldn't the government still keep the original copy of the birth certificate, and simply file revised copies along side it?
They usually keep stuff like that, at least here in the US I would think they do. I doubt they would destroy his original birth certificate just to make him feel better about himself.
I want to find my original one and frame it. (If I could have it reinstated that would also be super cool, though I doubt it would actually happen.)
The problem here is that you're basically forcing your partner to change their sexual orientation since you have changed sex. Why should people need to do that? If you're not into a particular sex, then it shouldn't be a crime for doing so.
When the hell did this turn into GA forcing Ren to be a lesbian? I thought he was forcing her to make an extremely difficult choice (essentially, to live, no matter what, in some far-less-than-ideal scenario).
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and you can tell me I'm not X,Y or Z and I can not give a shit what you think :zoinks:
That is what perception is all about. As long as it doesn't get to you and you remain happy and content, you should be fine.
you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
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I don't think Soph was talking about DNA.
That is all that matters. People can't hide from their DNA. Fooling yourself into thinking that you are something that you are not is the opposite of reality.
It's not about hiding from your DNA. I believe it's about interpreting the data that is there differently.
Changing the parents on your birth certificate would not only be rejecting the birth parents (DNA), but also crediting the people that raise/raised you. I think it is great to credit the people that chose to adopt and raise a child, but doing so on the birth certificate is a lie. It isn't like the child came out of the adoptive mother. The birth certificate is about your BIRTH, not who raises you.
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The people that raise you do the parenting, but they aren't your biological parents.
What's the difference, from a practical point of view, if the adoptive parents did it basically from day one?
They had no role in giving birth or actually making the baby. This isn't a parents that raised me certificate, or a gender I changed to certificate. It is about birth and what the status of a person was at that time. This isn't a difficult concept.
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Editing your birth certificate in the case of adoption is also a lie. Basically trying to reverse who your real parents are and change it to some people who adopted you and not your real birth parents. The legal purposes are another thing entirely, and are also complete bullshit.
Lol, well, if we're going to start talking about questions of morals, ethics, and what's right, why the hell are we talking about a legal document (or any part of the legal/governmental system)?
Besides, wouldn't the government still keep the original copy of the birth certificate, and simply file revised copies along side it?
They usually keep stuff like that, at least here in the US I would think they do. I doubt they would destroy his original birth certificate just to make him feel better about himself.
I want to find my original one and frame it. (If I could have it reinstated that would also be super cool, though I doubt it would actually happen.)
The problem here is that you're basically forcing your partner to change their sexual orientation since you have changed sex. Why should people need to do that? If you're not into a particular sex, then it shouldn't be a crime for doing so.
When the hell did this turn into GA forcing Ren to be a lesbian? I thought he was forcing her to make an extremely difficult choice (essentially, to live, no matter what, in some far-less-than-ideal scenario).
I don't pretend that the legal system is right, at least not in my eyes. We only started talking about birth certificates because GA stated that changing his was important.
What was it that makes you so proud about your original birth certificate that you would want to frame it?
GA is just forcing Ren to deal with his sex change. If she is pansexual, it won't matter. She married him as a man, not a woman, so it might cause problems. I don't like the idea of marrying under false pretenses. He is obviously not going to be the man she married.
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I don't pretend that the legal system is right, at least not in my eyes. We only started talking about birth certificates because GA stated that changing his was important.
What was it that makes you so proud about your original birth certificate that you would want to frame it?
GA is just forcing Ren to deal with his sex change. If she is pansexual, it won't matter. She married him as a man, not a woman, so it might cause problems. I don't like the idea of marrying under false pretenses. He is obviously not going to be the man she married.
Not pride, exactly. My bio dad is certainly preferable to the father whose name is on my birth certificate.
Yes, GA is indeed putting ren into a situation where she is forced to deal with his sex change one way or another. He's not forcing her to be pansexual or a lesbian or bisexual or whatever the hell would be applicable, though, which is *my* point.
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and you can tell me I'm not X,Y or Z and I can not give a shit what you think :zoinks:
That is what perception is all about. As long as it doesn't get to you and you remain happy and content, you should be fine.
you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
Wow, you know an awful lot about me and my life, for an entirely different person
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
That makes sense...I think.
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
If you were born a man you were "meant" to be a man. It's the self-image that needs to be corrected, if anything.
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I'd rather fuck around with my body a little to align it to my gender than the opposite (fuck around with my brain to make it fit my body)
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Your gender is not a disease of any kind. It's like AS. It's not a disease either, but some Aspies try to adapt to fit the perception of the NT mindset.
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The people that raise you do the parenting, but they aren't your biological parents.
What's the difference, from a practical point of view, if the adoptive parents did it basically from day one?
They had no role in giving birth or actually making the baby. This isn't a parents that raised me certificate, or a gender I changed to certificate. It is about birth and what the status of a person was at that time. This isn't a difficult concept.
And yet you completely missed my point, which had *nothing* to do with a piece of paper stating dull facts about your birth.
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
If you were born a man you were "meant" to be a man. It's the self-image that needs to be corrected, if anything.
That may not always be the case. For example: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
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Alot of people are actually intersex is one way or another. And in a lot of cases the person has no idea about it till they get tests done for something else and it shows up. What I mean is it's notas simple as "if you're born looking like a boy then you're male, fullstop." Obviously, that's the case with the majority, but there's a very significant minority where that isn't the case. And when you consider that we all start off the same way anyway (whether we develop to be M or F), it's not that surprising there are so many who don't fit into categories they're assigned
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That sounds logical to me.
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omg I said "alot" :zombiefuck:
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
If you were born a man you were "meant" to be a man. It's the self-image that needs to be corrected, if anything.
That may not always be the case. For example: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
That's a very interesting article, Odeon. Thanks for the link.
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Alot of people are actually intersex is one way or another. And in a lot of cases the person has no idea about it till they get tests done for something else and it shows up. What I mean is it's notas simple as "if you're born looking like a boy then you're male, fullstop." Obviously, that's the case with the majority, but there's a very significant minority where that isn't the case. And when you consider that we all start off the same way anyway (whether we develop to be M or F), it's not that surprising there are so many who don't fit into categories they're assigned
:agreed:
Like Caster Semenya, for example.
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What do you call a half Mexican, half German??
A BienerSchnitzel!!!
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my psych recommended I experience being socialised with as a girl before I push forward, which I did with friends (which was his suggestion).
How did you socialise as a girl?
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my psych recommended I experience being socialised with as a girl before I push forward, which I did with friends (which was his suggestion).
How did you socialise as a girl?
I do not know... My friends treated me as a girl, used female pronouns, female name, and what not. Beyond that I don't know what is different, but it is.
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my psych recommended I experience being socialised with as a girl before I push forward, which I did with friends (which was his suggestion).
How did you socialise as a girl?
I do not know... My friends treated me as a girl, used female pronouns, female name, and what not. Beyond that I don't know what is different, but it is.
Were these your new gender confused friends?
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my psych recommended I experience being socialised with as a girl before I push forward, which I did with friends (which was his suggestion).
How did you socialise as a girl?
I do not know... My friends treated me as a girl, used female pronouns, female name, and what not. Beyond that I don't know what is different, but it is.
Were these your new gender confused friends?
Not exclusively, no.
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What;s difficult about it is that it's hard to socialise as a woman if you're biologically male (or man if you're female), but then you need to be able to do that before you can get the hormones/surgery etc which would help you pass better. I mean the whole "living as a woman" thing needs to be passed before you're allowed the treatment that would make this easier. I can never expect to pass as an adult male without at least taking testosterone. But to do that, you need to be "living as a man" anyway. Life would be a lot easier if it iwas more socially acceptable to be neither male/female or masculine/feminine. Would make my life a lot easier anyway :laugh:
And I can only imagine it's a lot harder for MTFs
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I don't pretend that the legal system is right, at least not in my eyes. We only started talking about birth certificates because GA stated that changing his was important.
What was it that makes you so proud about your original birth certificate that you would want to frame it?
GA is just forcing Ren to deal with his sex change. If she is pansexual, it won't matter. She married him as a man, not a woman, so it might cause problems. I don't like the idea of marrying under false pretenses. He is obviously not going to be the man she married.
Not pride, exactly. My bio dad is certainly preferable to the father whose name is on my birth certificate.
Yes, GA is indeed putting ren into a situation where she is forced to deal with his sex change one way or another. He's not forcing her to be pansexual or a lesbian or bisexual or whatever the hell would be applicable, though, which is *my* point.
There really isn't any forcing, as she can just leave him and/or get a divorce. Not like there is literally a gun being held to her head. She can just leave his ass if she doesn't want to deal with it.
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
Your physical identity is all based on how you perceive yourself lol. The entire concept of gender is created by human society and so are the gender roles.
They just want to "pass" as the other gender. They want to be seen and identified by other humans as a man or woman, when they were born as the opposite sex (but want to be identified with the gender opposite of what is normally associated with their sex). This is all perception, how they perceive themselves and how other people perceive them. They want to be seen, identified, etc as something that they are not. That is why they are delusional.
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
If you were born a man you were "meant" to be a man. It's the self-image that needs to be corrected, if anything.
It is the fact that people think there is something wrong with being a man (genetically) and having traits and other things attributed to them that are normally associated with being a female. If you perceive this to be a negative thing that has to be fixed, and lack contentment and happiness over this, then you are just hurting yourself. You are going along with society and the notion that your "gender" (which is created by society in the first place) has to match your sex. Making one match the other isn't going to bring you happiness necessarily, just maybe a small amount of social normalcy.
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You really make a lot of assumptions and generalisations
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You really make a lot of assumptions and generalisations
You are really sensitive.
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I don't pretend that the legal system is right, at least not in my eyes. We only started talking about birth certificates because GA stated that changing his was important.
What was it that makes you so proud about your original birth certificate that you would want to frame it?
GA is just forcing Ren to deal with his sex change. If she is pansexual, it won't matter. She married him as a man, not a woman, so it might cause problems. I don't like the idea of marrying under false pretenses. He is obviously not going to be the man she married.
Not pride, exactly. My bio dad is certainly preferable to the father whose name is on my birth certificate.
Yes, GA is indeed putting ren into a situation where she is forced to deal with his sex change one way or another. He's not forcing her to be pansexual or a lesbian or bisexual or whatever the hell would be applicable, though, which is *my* point.
There really isn't any forcing, as she can just leave him and/or get a divorce. Not like there is literally a gun being held to her head. She can just leave his ass if she doesn't want to deal with it.
*nod* exactly.
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my psych recommended I experience being socialised with as a girl before I push forward, which I did with friends (which was his suggestion).
How did you socialise as a girl?
You just never stop talking :zoinks:
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my psych recommended I experience being socialised with as a girl before I push forward, which I did with friends (which was his suggestion).
How did you socialise as a girl?
You just never stop talking :zoinks:
I'm good at that :P`
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What;s difficult about it is that it's hard to socialise as a woman if you're biologically male (or man if you're female), but then you need to be able to do that before you can get the hormones/surgery etc which would help you pass better. I mean the whole "living as a woman" thing needs to be passed before you're allowed the treatment that would make this easier. I can never expect to pass as an adult male without at least taking testosterone. But to do that, you need to be "living as a man" anyway. Life would be a lot easier if it iwas more socially acceptable to be neither male/female or masculine/feminine. Would make my life a lot easier anyway :laugh:
And I can only imagine it's a lot harder for MTFs
Most places don't do a "Real Life Test". My psych wanted me to be sure by experiencing what it would be like, even in part to some small extent, to be treated as a girl. It was his suggestion that I ask my friends (I do believe he specifically mentioned my "gender confused friends" as Phlexor so 'eloquently' put it). Some places/people let you go straight on to hormones without any of that real life stuff first. Letting hormones do their thing first... For some people it's close to impossible to leave as their target gender without some sort medical intervention.
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What;s difficult about it is that it's hard to socialise as a woman if you're biologically male (or man if you're female), but then you need to be able to do that before you can get the hormones/surgery etc which would help you pass better. I mean the whole "living as a woman" thing needs to be passed before you're allowed the treatment that would make this easier. I can never expect to pass as an adult male without at least taking testosterone. But to do that, you need to be "living as a man" anyway. Life would be a lot easier if it iwas more socially acceptable to be neither male/female or masculine/feminine. Would make my life a lot easier anyway :laugh:
And I can only imagine it's a lot harder for MTFs
Most places don't do a "Real Life Test". My psych wanted me to be sure by experiencing what it would be like, even in part to some small extent, to be treated as a girl. It was his suggestion that I ask my friends (I do believe he specifically mentioned my "gender confused friends" as Phlexor so 'eloquently' put it). Some places/people let you go straight on to hormones without any of that real life stuff first. Letting hormones do their thing first... For some people it's close to impossible to leave as their target gender without some sort medical intervention.
I'm not here to make you feel good about it. That's not going to help you. In real life there are always going to be people giving you shit about it. Get used to it as it's going to part of your life from now on.
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What;s difficult about it is that it's hard to socialise as a woman if you're biologically male (or man if you're female), but then you need to be able to do that before you can get the hormones/surgery etc which would help you pass better. I mean the whole "living as a woman" thing needs to be passed before you're allowed the treatment that would make this easier. I can never expect to pass as an adult male without at least taking testosterone. But to do that, you need to be "living as a man" anyway. Life would be a lot easier if it iwas more socially acceptable to be neither male/female or masculine/feminine. Would make my life a lot easier anyway :laugh:
And I can only imagine it's a lot harder for MTFs
Most places don't do a "Real Life Test". My psych wanted me to be sure by experiencing what it would be like, even in part to some small extent, to be treated as a girl. It was his suggestion that I ask my friends (I do believe he specifically mentioned my "gender confused friends" as Phlexor so 'eloquently' put it). Some places/people let you go straight on to hormones without any of that real life stuff first. Letting hormones do their thing first... For some people it's close to impossible to leave as their target gender without some sort medical intervention.
I'm not here to make you feel good about it. That's not going to help you. In real life there are always going to be people giving you shit about it. Get used to it as it's going to part of your life from now on.
I'm still allowed to respond to such things.
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What;s difficult about it is that it's hard to socialise as a woman if you're biologically male (or man if you're female), but then you need to be able to do that before you can get the hormones/surgery etc which would help you pass better. I mean the whole "living as a woman" thing needs to be passed before you're allowed the treatment that would make this easier. I can never expect to pass as an adult male without at least taking testosterone. But to do that, you need to be "living as a man" anyway. Life would be a lot easier if it iwas more socially acceptable to be neither male/female or masculine/feminine. Would make my life a lot easier anyway :laugh:
And I can only imagine it's a lot harder for MTFs
Most places don't do a "Real Life Test". My psych wanted me to be sure by experiencing what it would be like, even in part to some small extent, to be treated as a girl. It was his suggestion that I ask my friends (I do believe he specifically mentioned my "gender confused friends" as Phlexor so 'eloquently' put it). Some places/people let you go straight on to hormones without any of that real life stuff first. Letting hormones do their thing first... For some people it's close to impossible to leave as their target gender without some sort medical intervention.
I'm not here to make you feel good about it. That's not going to help you. In real life there are always going to be people giving you shit about it. Get used to it as it's going to part of your life from now on.
I'm still allowed to respond to such things.
Sure, but be a smart ass in real life and it could be painful. That's not a threat from me, that's just reality for you. Unless you have the balls to back it up (no pun intended).
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I've survived 26yrs being a smart arse. I'm sure I can continue as is just fine. Thanks for your concern.
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You really make a lot of assumptions and generalisations
You are really sensitive.
how so?
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
If you were born a man you were "meant" to be a man. It's the self-image that needs to be corrected, if anything.
It is the fact that people think there is something wrong with being a man (genetically) and having traits and other things attributed to them that are normally associated with being a female. If you perceive this to be a negative thing that has to be fixed, and lack contentment and happiness over this, then you are just hurting yourself. You are going along with society and the notion that your "gender" (which is created by society in the first place) has to match your sex. Making one match the other isn't going to bring you happiness necessarily, just maybe a small amount of social normalcy.
Yes, like AS. 90% of our "problems" stem from the NTs' unwillingness to simply accept us as we are.
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you seem to be under the impression that trans people choose hormones and/or surgery because of other people's perception of them/
That is all gender is about, perception, so yes they do.
I thought it would be more for attaining physical identity compatible to the psychological self-image of their gender in most cases. Basically the mind thinks it is a specific gender intrinsically, but is alienated by it's own physical form not matching it's mental profile. :-\
If you were born a man you were "meant" to be a man. It's the self-image that needs to be corrected, if anything.
It is the fact that people think there is something wrong with being a man (genetically) and having traits and other things attributed to them that are normally associated with being a female. If you perceive this to be a negative thing that has to be fixed, and lack contentment and happiness over this, then you are just hurting yourself. You are going along with society and the notion that your "gender" (which is created by society in the first place) has to match your sex. Making one match the other isn't going to bring you happiness necessarily, just maybe a small amount of social normalcy.
Yes, like AS. 90% of our "problems" stem from the NTs' unwillingness to simply accept us as we are.
Er, no, IMHO. Most of our problems stem from the disorder itself. You don't have to like it any more than a blind would have to like being forced to manage without eyesight, but to get by you do need to be aware of your problems so you can compensate.
Blaming your problems on the vast majority of those around is not brave, IMO.
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Er, no, IMHO. Most of our problems stem from the disorder itself. You don't have to like it any more than a blind would have to like being forced to manage without eyesight, but to get by you do need to be aware of your problems so you can compensate.
Blaming your problems on the vast majority of those around is not brave, IMO.
It's not a disorder at all, it's society that made it a "disorder".
Just to take one example: for the NTs it's perfectly OK to make up lies, just to be "sociable". It's even expected on many or most occasions, while I myself only lie if I really have to or to keep someone from knowing something dreadful that won't help them anyway. I will never accept it being OK to lie like NTs do, just because they're a majority. It's only "normal" statistically, nothing else.
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Yes there are social issues that come about because society works according to NT brains not Aspie brains. But that's not NT's fault, they are the majority.
There are also a host of other, non-social issues that some Aspies (and other's don't) that have nothing to do with NTs.
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Yes there are social issues that come about because society works according to NT brains not Aspie brains. But that's not NT's fault, they are the majority.
There are also a host of other, non-social issues that some Aspies (and other's don't) that have nothing to do with NTs.
So, if the majority are religious dumbfucks believing that Earth is flat, people with brains should accept that?
I don't give a fuck about what the majority thinks as long as they leave me alone.
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Yes there are social issues that come about because society works according to NT brains not Aspie brains. But that's not NT's fault, they are the majority.
There are also a host of other, non-social issues that some Aspies (and other's don't) that have nothing to do with NTs.
So, if the majority are religious dumbfucks believing that Earth is flat, people with brains should accept that?
I don't give a fuck about what the majority thinks as long as they leave me alone.
Those are not comparative examples.
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Yes there are social issues that come about because society works according to NT brains not Aspie brains. But that's not NT's fault, they are the majority.
There are also a host of other, non-social issues that some Aspies (and other's don't) that have nothing to do with NTs.
So, if the majority are religious dumbfucks believing that Earth is flat, people with brains should accept that?
I don't give a fuck about what the majority thinks as long as they leave me alone.
Those are not comparative examples.
Why not?
The majority are dumbfucks, btw. The general public think that Aspies are potential terrorists and school-shooters with no feelings for other human beings. Not that I get very warm feelings for them through these prejudices, though.
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Er, no, IMHO. Most of our problems stem from the disorder itself. You don't have to like it any more than a blind would have to like being forced to manage without eyesight, but to get by you do need to be aware of your problems so you can compensate.
Blaming your problems on the vast majority of those around is not brave, IMO.
It's not a disorder at all, it's society that made it a "disorder".
Just to take one example: for the NTs it's perfectly OK to make up lies, just to be "sociable". It's even expected on many or most occasions, while I myself only lie if I really have to or to keep someone from knowing something dreadful that won't help them anyway. I will never accept it being OK to lie like NTs do, just because they're a majority. It's only "normal" statistically, nothing else.
The fact is that because of the disorder (or rather, the group of disorders, and yes, so sorry, I do think it is a disorder), we miss a huge portion of the non-verbal communication taking place between the vast majority of the population. Quite a few of us have problems with language and communication--I see my son struggling with this every day, not because he is stupid but because he is autistic--and comorbids such as OCD and ADD are common, etc, etc, etc. Ignoring these facts is not going to help you, just as pretending that the blind's lack of eyesight is everyone else's problem, not his, will help the blind.
You can overcome your limitations only when being aware of them. Yes, the society can help, and yes, those around you can help, but it's not THEIR responsibility to find out about and compensate for those limitations to the extent possible, it's YOURS. They have their own problems; why should they care about yours? It's not a blame game and treating it as such will only serve to make your life more miserable than it has to be.
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Yes there are social issues that come about because society works according to NT brains not Aspie brains. But that's not NT's fault, they are the majority.
There are also a host of other, non-social issues that some Aspies (and other's don't) that have nothing to do with NTs.
So, if the majority are religious dumbfucks believing that Earth is flat, people with brains should accept that?
I don't give a fuck about what the majority thinks as long as they leave me alone.
So stop blaming them for your problems and you'll be fine. It's far more likely, statistically speaking, that you are wrong and they are right.
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AS is a disorder in itself. Being in a world that is not AS oriented makes it clearer and yes, partly does make the disability a disability.
Being blind is a disability in itself. Living in a visually oriented world does make it more clear. And does make it a disability partly.
Now, in a world full of blind people, it probably would not be a disability.
In a world full of people on the spectrum, it still would be I think. Because we all are so different.
When I read of autism friendly areas written by 'experts', I get nauseous. It would not be the environment I could be in. What is needed for one is abhorrent for another.
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Yes there are social issues that come about because society works according to NT brains not Aspie brains. But that's not NT's fault, they are the majority.
There are also a host of other, non-social issues that some Aspies (and other's don't) that have nothing to do with NTs.
So, if the majority are religious dumbfucks believing that Earth is flat, people with brains should accept that?
I don't give a fuck about what the majority thinks as long as they leave me alone.
Those are not comparative examples.
Why not?
The majority are dumbfucks, btw. The general public think that Aspies are potential terrorists and school-shooters with no feelings for other human beings. Not that I get very warm feelings for them through these prejudices, though.
Proof? Aren't you presenting yourself as the one with prejudices right now? Me, I suspect that the majority doesn't care.
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The fact is that because of the disorder (or rather, the group of disorders, and yes, so sorry, I do think it is a disorder), we miss a huge portion of the non-verbal communication taking place between the vast majority of the population. Quite a few of us have problems with language and communication--I see my son struggling with this every day, not because he is stupid but because he is autistic--and comorbids such as OCD and ADD are common, etc, etc, etc. Ignoring these facts is not going to help you, just as pretending that the blind's lack of eyesight is everyone else's problem, not his, will help the blind.
I myself never got any help from society more than my pension. It wasn't my shrink who learned me to interpret non-verbal communication, it was myself. My shrink only told me about my limitations. ::)
You can overcome your limitations only when being aware of them. Yes, the society can help, and yes, those around you can help, but it's not THEIR responsibility to find out about and compensate for those limitations to the extent possible, it's YOURS. They have their own problems; why should they care about yours? It's not a blame game and treating it as such will only serve to make your life more miserable than it has to be.
Like I said, I don't see any limitations. They could have given me a job that I managed to do from home instead of a pension, but they didn't. They were never interested when I tried to get one.
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Yes there are social issues that come about because society works according to NT brains not Aspie brains. But that's not NT's fault, they are the majority.
There are also a host of other, non-social issues that some Aspies (and other's don't) that have nothing to do with NTs.
So, if the majority are religious dumbfucks believing that Earth is flat, people with brains should accept that?
I don't give a fuck about what the majority thinks as long as they leave me alone.
Those are not comparative examples.
Why not?
The majority are dumbfucks, btw. The general public think that Aspies are potential terrorists and school-shooters with no feelings for other human beings. Not that I get very warm feelings for them through these prejudices, though.
Proof? Aren't you presenting yourself as the one with prejudices right now? Me, I suspect that the majority doesn't care.
This made me laugh so hard.
Lit, might be that you are one of the few experiencing that from the general public.
May tell more about how you present yourself than about society.
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Ask a random NT dumbfuck in the street. Will s/he be able to give a reasonably good explanation of what AS is? Most probably not.
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Yes there are social issues that come about because society works according to NT brains not Aspie brains. But that's not NT's fault, they are the majority.
There are also a host of other, non-social issues that some Aspies (and other's don't) that have nothing to do with NTs.
So, if the majority are religious dumbfucks believing that Earth is flat, people with brains should accept that?
I don't give a fuck about what the majority thinks as long as they leave me alone.
Those are not comparative examples.
Why not?
The majority are dumbfucks, btw. The general public think that Aspies are potential terrorists and school-shooters with no feelings for other human beings. Not that I get very warm feelings for them through these prejudices, though.
Perhaps, but you're an idiot. And you're a minority. So don't over-generalise.
Society (in part) is the way in which people interact in emotionally meaningful ways. It's not NT's or Society's fault that Aspies generally don't have emotional content in their communications. Nor is it Aspies' fault is they don't fit.
This is the world. It's no one group's fault and to claim otherwise is arrogant and ignorant.
And off topic.
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The fact is that because of the disorder (or rather, the group of disorders, and yes, so sorry, I do think it is a disorder), we miss a huge portion of the non-verbal communication taking place between the vast majority of the population. Quite a few of us have problems with language and communication--I see my son struggling with this every day, not because he is stupid but because he is autistic--and comorbids such as OCD and ADD are common, etc, etc, etc. Ignoring these facts is not going to help you, just as pretending that the blind's lack of eyesight is everyone else's problem, not his, will help the blind.
I myself never got any help from society more than my pension. It wasn't my shrink who learned me to interpret non-verbal communication, it was myself. My shrink only told me about my limitations. ::)
You can overcome your limitations only when being aware of them. Yes, the society can help, and yes, those around you can help, but it's not THEIR responsibility to find out about and compensate for those limitations to the extent possible, it's YOURS. They have their own problems; why should they care about yours? It's not a blame game and treating it as such will only serve to make your life more miserable than it has to be.
Like I said, I don't see any limitations. They could have given me a job that I managed to do from home instead of a pension, but they didn't. They were never interested when I tried to get one.
So, you are more angry with the Swedish wellfare system than with NT society in general.
In my country, they will keep motivating and trying to support a person with ASD to find a fitting job. Disability pension doesn't change that.
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Ask a random NT dumbfuck in the street. Will s/he be able to give a reasonably good explanation of what AS is? Most probably not.
Why should they have detailed knowledge of AS when it is a disorder affecting a small fraction of the population?
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Ask a random NT dumbfuck in the street. Will s/he be able to give a reasonably good explanation of what AS is? Most probably not.
No, they won't.
But most don't come up with Volkert van der Graaf or a schoolkilling.
They do have either the image of a severely autistic person, or of a computer wizzkid without social skills. The latter the most in my experience. Still flawed, but not as negative as you make it to be.
Lots of people do know someone with a kid on the spectrum too nowadays. That does make a bit of a difference in how they see things.
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The fact is that because of the disorder (or rather, the group of disorders, and yes, so sorry, I do think it is a disorder), we miss a huge portion of the non-verbal communication taking place between the vast majority of the population. Quite a few of us have problems with language and communication--I see my son struggling with this every day, not because he is stupid but because he is autistic--and comorbids such as OCD and ADD are common, etc, etc, etc. Ignoring these facts is not going to help you, just as pretending that the blind's lack of eyesight is everyone else's problem, not his, will help the blind.
I myself never got any help from society more than my pension. It wasn't my shrink who learned me to interpret non-verbal communication, it was myself. My shrink only told me about my limitations. ::)
You can overcome your limitations only when being aware of them. Yes, the society can help, and yes, those around you can help, but it's not THEIR responsibility to find out about and compensate for those limitations to the extent possible, it's YOURS. They have their own problems; why should they care about yours? It's not a blame game and treating it as such will only serve to make your life more miserable than it has to be.
Like I said, I don't see any limitations. They could have given me a job that I managed to do from home instead of a pension, but they didn't. They were never interested when I tried to get one.
So, you are more angry with the Swedish wellfare system than with NT society in general.
In my country, they will keep motivating and trying to support a person with ASD to find a fitting job. Disability pension doesn't change that.
No, I'm satisfied with my pension. The NT dumbfucks can work and pay for my living. They chose this society that made me marginalized in the first place. Soleiyu is perfectly right about that.
I just despise them of all my heart for thinking that they are in any way superior.
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Ask a random NT dumbfuck in the street. Will s/he be able to give a reasonably good explanation of what AS is? Most probably not.
Why should they have detailed knowledge of AS when it is a disorder affecting a small fraction of the population?
We are about as many in percentage as the Jews in Nazi Germany were. Do you think that the German in general had a good idea of what a Jew was in Nazi Germany?
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I dyed my hair recently...
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.05/2010-05-27%2011.19.19_edit0.jpg)
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.05/redgreen_2.jpg)
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.05/redgreen_3.jpg)
(http://GalileoAce.com/Uploaded/2010.05/redgreen_1.jpg)
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The fact is that because of the disorder (or rather, the group of disorders, and yes, so sorry, I do think it is a disorder), we miss a huge portion of the non-verbal communication taking place between the vast majority of the population. Quite a few of us have problems with language and communication--I see my son struggling with this every day, not because he is stupid but because he is autistic--and comorbids such as OCD and ADD are common, etc, etc, etc. Ignoring these facts is not going to help you, just as pretending that the blind's lack of eyesight is everyone else's problem, not his, will help the blind.
I myself never got any help from society more than my pension. It wasn't my shrink who learned me to interpret non-verbal communication, it was myself. My shrink only told me about my limitations. ::)
You can overcome your limitations only when being aware of them. Yes, the society can help, and yes, those around you can help, but it's not THEIR responsibility to find out about and compensate for those limitations to the extent possible, it's YOURS. They have their own problems; why should they care about yours? It's not a blame game and treating it as such will only serve to make your life more miserable than it has to be.
Like I said, I don't see any limitations. They could have given me a job that I managed to do from home instead of a pension, but they didn't. They were never interested when I tried to get one.
So, you are more angry with the Swedish wellfare system than with NT society in general.
In my country, they will keep motivating and trying to support a person with ASD to find a fitting job. Disability pension doesn't change that.
No, I'm satisfied with my pension. The NT dumbfucks can work and pay for my living. They chose this society that made me marginalized in the first place. Soleiyu is perfectly right about that.
I just despise them of all my heart for thinking that they are in any way superior.
Again, proof?
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Ask a random NT dumbfuck in the street. Will s/he be able to give a reasonably good explanation of what AS is? Most probably not.
Why should they have detailed knowledge of AS when it is a disorder affecting a small fraction of the population?
We are about as many in percentage as the Jews in Nazi Germany were. Do you think that the German in general had a good idea of what a Jew was in Nazi Germany?
And this argument is relevant because...? The Jews were a productive part of the German society until the Nazis forced them out.
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Again, proof?
Proof for what? That they think they're superior? Most NTs think that you are mentally retarded when you tell them that you have AS.
Ironically the few admitting that we are not are not the average dumbfucks in the street. My shrink admitted that I have higher intelligence than he has, for instances
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The fact is that because of the disorder (or rather, the group of disorders, and yes, so sorry, I do think it is a disorder), we miss a huge portion of the non-verbal communication taking place between the vast majority of the population. Quite a few of us have problems with language and communication--I see my son struggling with this every day, not because he is stupid but because he is autistic--and comorbids such as OCD and ADD are common, etc, etc, etc. Ignoring these facts is not going to help you, just as pretending that the blind's lack of eyesight is everyone else's problem, not his, will help the blind.
I myself never got any help from society more than my pension. It wasn't my shrink who learned me to interpret non-verbal communication, it was myself. My shrink only told me about my limitations. ::)
You can overcome your limitations only when being aware of them. Yes, the society can help, and yes, those around you can help, but it's not THEIR responsibility to find out about and compensate for those limitations to the extent possible, it's YOURS. They have their own problems; why should they care about yours? It's not a blame game and treating it as such will only serve to make your life more miserable than it has to be.
Like I said, I don't see any limitations. They could have given me a job that I managed to do from home instead of a pension, but they didn't. They were never interested when I tried to get one.
So, you are more angry with the Swedish wellfare system than with NT society in general.
In my country, they will keep motivating and trying to support a person with ASD to find a fitting job. Disability pension doesn't change that.
No, I'm satisfied with my pension. The NT dumbfucks can work and pay for my living. They chose this society that made me marginalized in the first place. Soleiyu is perfectly right about that.
I just despise them of all my heart for thinking that they are in any way superior.
You are contradicting yourself Lit.
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Ask a random NT dumbfuck in the street. Will s/he be able to give a reasonably good explanation of what AS is? Most probably not.
Why should they have detailed knowledge of AS when it is a disorder affecting a small fraction of the population?
We are about as many in percentage as the Jews in Nazi Germany were. Do you think that the German in general had a good idea of what a Jew was in Nazi Germany?
And this argument is relevant because...? The Jews were a productive part of the German society until the Nazis forced them out.
So many Aspies couldn't be very productive if given the right kind of jobs and left on our own?
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Nice hair colour GA.
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Nice hair colour GA.
Thank you
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Again, proof?
Proof for what? That they think they're superior? Most NTs think that you are mentally retarded when you tell them that you have AS.
Ironically the few admitting that we are not are not the average dumbfucks in the street. My shrink admitted that I have higher intelligence than he has, for instances
"Most?"
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Again, proof?
Proof for what? That they think they're superior? Most NTs think that you are mentally retarded when you tell them that you have AS.
Ironically the few admitting that we are not are not the average dumbfucks in the street. My shrink admitted that I have higher intelligence than he has, for instances
"Most?"
Most I ever met, even though they know I went to university and such and they did not.
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:yawn:
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Ask a random NT dumbfuck in the street. Will s/he be able to give a reasonably good explanation of what AS is? Most probably not.
Why should they have detailed knowledge of AS when it is a disorder affecting a small fraction of the population?
We are about as many in percentage as the Jews in Nazi Germany were. Do you think that the German in general had a good idea of what a Jew was in Nazi Germany?
And this argument is relevant because...? The Jews were a productive part of the German society until the Nazis forced them out.
So many Aspies couldn't be very productive if given the right kind of jobs and left on our own?
You are the one trying to compare the two, not me. The Jews are not different from atheists or Christians or Muslims, and there are autistic Jews.
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Again, proof?
Proof for what? That they think they're superior? Most NTs think that you are mentally retarded when you tell them that you have AS.
Ironically the few admitting that we are not are not the average dumbfucks in the street. My shrink admitted that I have higher intelligence than he has, for instances
"Most?"
Most I ever met, even though they know I went to university and such and they did not.
I'm sure that you conducted an objective investigation.
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Again, proof?
Proof for what? That they think they're superior? Most NTs think that you are mentally retarded when you tell them that you have AS.
Ironically the few admitting that we are not are not the average dumbfucks in the street. My shrink admitted that I have higher intelligence than he has, for instances
"Most?"
Most I ever met, even though they know I went to university and such and they did not.
I'm sure that you conducted an objective investigation.
:orly:
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If there's one thing we learned last century it's that biology does not equal destiny.
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I have three copies of my birth certificate: one long form, one short form, and one wallet sized(!). The most amusing thing on the long form was the question, "Is the residence (where we were living ca 1963) a farm?" The typist checked the YES box. This must have given my folks a laugh, since we lived ATT in Chevy Chase, less than 1 mi. from the MD/DC border. Yeah, it probably was a farm--in 1863.
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Most I ever met, even though they know I went to university and such and they did not.
Dude, assuming going to university makes you superior to people who didn't is about the same level of thinking as assuming a guy with a 12-inch dick would be every girl's fantasy and guaranteed to be great in bed.
Proof for what? That they think they're superior? Most NTs think that you are mentally retarded when you tell them that you have AS.
Ironically the few admitting that we are not are not the average dumbfucks in the street. My shrink admitted that I have higher intelligence than he has, for instances
Actually, most of them would prolly expect you to be a socially retarded computer whiz kid, like odeon said; at least if they'd heard of AS but not researched it much.
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:viking:
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Dude, assuming going to university makes you superior to people who didn't is about the same level of thinking as assuming a guy with a 12-inch dick would be every girl's fantasy and guaranteed to be great in bed.
Well, isn't it? ??? :zoinks:
Actually, most of them would prolly expect you to be a socially retarded computer whiz kid, like odeon said; at least if they'd heard of AS but not researched it much.
I'm a socially retarded explosives kid. :viking:
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Dude, assuming going to university makes you superior to people who didn't is about the same level of thinking as assuming a guy with a 12-inch dick would be every girl's fantasy and guaranteed to be great in bed.
Well, isn't it? ??? :zoinks:
Personally, I don't have fantasies about having a guy collapse one of my lungs from the inside, no. :laugh:
I fooled around exactly once with a guy who seemed to be hung like a horse. My first thought when I realized how big he was wasn't exactly "woohoo! THAT will be pleasant to be impaled on!"
I'm a socially retarded explosives kid. :viking:
I was just thinking the other day; I can't wait till it becomes a bit more seasonable to start playing with fireworks. :thumbup:
(I know you mean explosive in the blow-shit-up sense, but benign fire and explosions are fun too.)
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So, ye're playing with fireworks, wench? The Fourth of July, eh? :arrr:
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we have fireworks on bonfire night here. I love bonfire night :viking:
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Murderers on turtles are :viking:
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You really make a lot of assumptions and generalisations
You are really sensitive.
how so?
You are answering questions and taking things personally in a thread that was intended for someone else. This isn't "Discuss Soph".
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You really make a lot of assumptions and generalisations
You are really sensitive.
how so?
You are answering questions and taking things personally in a thread that was intended for someone else. This isn't "Discuss Soph".
Doesn't seem to be Discuss GalileoAce either...more like Discuss how NTs fuck over Aspies, or Discuss how wrong gender is/isn't/fuck you/no fuck you....
ad infinitum.
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Murderers on turtles are :viking:
:zoinks:
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You really make a lot of assumptions and generalisations
You are really sensitive.
how so?
You are answering questions and taking things personally in a thread that was intended for someone else. This isn't "Discuss Soph".
Doesn't seem to be Discuss GalileoAce either...more like Discuss how NTs fuck over Aspies, or Discuss how wrong gender is/isn't/fuck you/no fuck you....
ad infinitum.
Yeah, I stated the original intent of the thread. Threads on the internets often get derailed in a similar fashion. The NTs fucking over Aspies thing is prevalent here, of course.
The fact that you made yet another ask away thread is very attention-whorish. You already have one ask away thread, and this discussion could have easily have taken place there.
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Dude, assuming going to university makes you superior to people who didn't is about the same level of thinking as assuming a guy with a 12-inch dick would be every girl's fantasy and guaranteed to be great in bed.
And--gasp--what if you have a guy with a 12-inch dick who went to the uni?
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You really make a lot of assumptions and generalisations
You are really sensitive.
how so?
You are answering questions and taking things personally in a thread that was intended for someone else. This isn't "Discuss Soph".
Doesn't seem to be Discuss GalileoAce either...more like Discuss how NTs fuck over Aspies, or Discuss how wrong gender is/isn't/fuck you/no fuck you....
ad infinitum.
Yeah, I stated the original intent of the thread. Threads on the internets often get derailed in a similar fashion. The NTs fucking over Aspies thing is prevalent here, of course.
The fact that you made yet another ask away thread is very attention-whorish. You already have one ask away thread, and this discussion could have easily have taken place there.
This isn't an ask away thread.
I've never claimed not to be an attention whore.
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Dude, assuming going to university makes you superior to people who didn't is about the same level of thinking as assuming a guy with a 12-inch dick would be every girl's fantasy and guaranteed to be great in bed.
And--gasp--what if you have a guy with a 12-inch dick who went to the uni?
Then she is :viking:
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So, ye're playing with fireworks, wench? The Fourth of July, eh? :arrr:
*nod* Nothing like good food, good friends, and good EXPLOSIVES!
Dude, assuming going to university makes you superior to people who didn't is about the same level of thinking as assuming a guy with a 12-inch dick would be every girl's fantasy and guaranteed to be great in bed.
And--gasp--what if you have a guy with a 12-inch dick who went to the uni?
So, a guy with a scary penis who's broke, has infine loan debt, and prolly lives at home, unemployed, with his mommy, who does his laundry?
I'm kinda over that whole scene.
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that sounds like me
minus the 12 inch penis
(mine is 13)
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that sounds like me
minus the 12 inch penis
(mine is 13)
millimetres? :P