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Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: Parts on March 03, 2009, 09:58:00 PM

Title: Stimulus
Post by: Parts on March 03, 2009, 09:58:00 PM
Does anybody think it will help? I think throwing money in the proportions that they are are useless.  None of it will help things have to get better on there own.   All this money going to people who just pissed away what they had.   We need new companies not the shitty one's that already proven they are idiots.  AIG want 30 billion MORE wtf I can't even conceive of that much money and they will only want more.  It will be never ending an who is going to pay for it us no matter and they will always want more.  When does it end.  All this spending is just going to make things worse we need new ideas and companies run in not the same old way
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: DirtDawg on March 03, 2009, 10:50:59 PM
...  AIG want 30 billion MORE wtf I can't even conceive of that much money and they will only want more. 

...

Here's an interesting email that has been circulating recently:




How many zeros in a billion?
 

This is too true to be funny.
The next time you hear a politician use the
Word 'billion' in such a casual manner, think about
whether or not you want the 'politicians' spending
YOUR tax money, today.

A billion is a difficult number to comprehend,
but one advertising agency did a good job of
putting that figure into some perspective in
one of it's releases.

A.
A billion seconds ago it was 1959.

B.
A billion minutes ago Jesus was alive.

C.
A billion hours ago our ancestors were
living in the Stone Age.

D.
A billion days ago no-one walked on the earth on two feet.

E.
A billion dollars ago was only
8 hours and 20 minutes,
at the rate our government
is spending it.


While this thought is still fresh in our brain...
let's take a look at New Orleans .
It's amazing what you can learn with some simple division.

Louisiana Senator,
Mary Landrieu (D)
is presently asking Congress for
250 BILLION DOLLARS
to rebuild New Orleans .. Interesting number...
what does it mean?

A.
Well.... if you are one of the 484,674 residents of New Orleans   
(every man, woman, and child)
you each get $516,528.

B.
Or... if you have one of the 188,251 homes in
New Orleans , your home gets $1,329,787..

C.
Or... if you are a family of four...
your family gets $2,066,012.

Washington , D. C.

HELLO!
Are all your calculators broken??

Building Permit Tax
CDL License Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax (Fed)
Federal Unemployment Tax (FU TA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel Pe rmit Tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax
Inventory Tax
IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Luxury Tax
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Service charge taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Tax (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicl e Tax
School Tax   
State Income Tax   
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone Federal Excise Tax
Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Tax
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax   
Telephone State and Local Tax
Telephone Usage Charge Tax
Utility Tax
Vehicle License Registration T ax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
(And to think, we left British Rule to avoid so many taxes)

STILL THINK THIS IS MEANT TO BE FUNNY?

Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago...
and our nation was the most prosperous in the world.

We had absolutely no national debt...
We had the largest middle class in the world...
and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

What happened?
Can you spell 'politicians!'



What the hell happened?????






Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Callaway on March 03, 2009, 11:31:04 PM
No, I don't think that it will work at all.  Continuing to live beyond our means as a nation is as insane as it would be for a family.

I think that they are idiots to be spending our money this way and that everyone who voted for this insane "stimulus" package should all be fired. 

Unfortunately, it will be too late by then for it to really do us any good.

Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: ProfessorFarnsworth on March 04, 2009, 12:37:13 AM
I'm afraid the situation is too vast and growing too fast for any stimulus or bailout to work. Not to mention all these packages are not backed by real money, it's all actually just more debt being used as money because the treasury is in the red already. They have this idea that by adding debt into the right investment projects, they might gain a profitable return over time to pay the debts off. While this would work if the debt wasn't accelerating in growth, I'm afraid this debt situation is simply accelerating out of control for that to work, and any return will not be sufficient to negate or overweigh it. If anything this will worsen the situation by accumulating more national debt with a ever growing demand for more bailouts with higher sums every time. This will eventually lead to an collapse of the U.S economy, followed by the global economy long term (hell the global economy could collapse or enter depression territory within a year according to current trends).
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Dexter Morgan on March 04, 2009, 12:59:31 AM
Quote
What happened?
Two World Wars and a Cold War.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Phlexor on March 04, 2009, 09:38:52 AM
It'll work. Now give me my monies.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: odeon on March 07, 2009, 01:07:11 PM
It can't work. It's the same as throwing the money away.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: DirtDawg on March 07, 2009, 03:26:30 PM
It can't work. It's the same as throwing the money away.

I wonder if anyone has yet to compare the whisking away of a few million dollars as compared to the burning of a few million dollars.

Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Phlexor on March 08, 2009, 07:42:25 AM
It can't work. It's the same as throwing the money away.

As long as they are throwing it my way.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: McGiver on March 08, 2009, 01:41:36 PM
it will help the rich continue to get richer
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: odeon on March 08, 2009, 05:40:35 PM
Yes, probably. But even in a best-case scenario, it will only delay the inevitable.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Christopher McCandless on March 08, 2009, 08:27:27 PM
It can't work. It's the same as throwing the money away.
It worked fine in Japan many years ago.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: odeon on March 09, 2009, 01:17:46 AM
That was very different. The rest of the world was not in recession.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Christopher McCandless on March 09, 2009, 06:31:49 AM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Parts on March 09, 2009, 09:45:07 AM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Bailing out big banks and automakers is slightly different than big public works projects I know there are some but most of the money isn't going to them
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Christopher McCandless on March 09, 2009, 11:56:24 AM
They have to bail them out - not bailing them out is even worse. What should have happened is someone regulating them properly in the first place.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Parts on March 09, 2009, 12:01:56 PM
But then again who am I to complain got my first call today about the new subsidies they are giving out for retrofit insulation setting an appointment with the guy for Friday
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Christopher McCandless on March 09, 2009, 12:03:16 PM
But then again who am I to complain got my first call today about the new subsidies they are giving out for retrofit insulation setting an appointment with the guy for Friday
Lol.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: odeon on March 09, 2009, 12:07:24 PM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Don't be so sure. There's no point in lending if it's fantasy money to begin with.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: odeon on March 09, 2009, 12:08:46 PM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Bailing out big banks and automakers is slightly different than big public works projects I know there are some but most of the money isn't going to them

Maybe there isn't room for all those automakers.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: ProfessorFarnsworth on March 09, 2009, 09:57:25 PM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Don't be so sure. There's no point in lending if it's fantasy money to begin with.

And that is the key issue. There's simply too many loans already out there, with a considerable amount of it defaulting due to people living beyond their means. Big businesses have also over-expanded their franchise without real money backing it up; and since they rely on profitable returns of their investments pay it off and that isn't happening, they risk going insolvent and then they fail.

Basically to sum it up, this whole crisis started when a few banks failed to meet their obligations to pay back a massive debt tab to larger banks, and due to this, everyone decides to check their tabs, and they go "OH SHIT!" realizing how astronomically large the tab is, and cease lending almost immediately to try and repay their debt obligations to others, and rebuild their capital. Big business then who relied on the bank loans, suddenly find themselves with no credit to sustain their risky (if not dodgy) investments, and immediately start to cry poor as they have little real money to back up their overinflated enterprise. So big businesses then try to effectively downsize themselves to lose any non-essential baggage while maintain enough profit to sustain their business.

However being greedy pigs the corporates are, the executives don't want to sacrifice their own vast payments schemes, so they downsize by simply laying off employees or reduce their expenditure in any other way possible (such as reduced pay, reduced working hours, hiring scabs or outsourcing, find cheaper ways to achieve things, compromise safety, etc). If they did sacrifice their vast payments, it could actually be a viable solution. Because that would free up hundreds of millions of dollars (maybe billions) annually; and that's enough to invest real money into new projects and repay any of their debt obligations over time, to hopefully dig themselves out of their mess. If they cry unfair, well I ask them this, "If you are a dumbshit for running a risky business with fake money, and want to ever earn your paycheck back; why don't you bail yourselves out with your executive pay and funds? You have the money to do something, not to mention once your business recovers, you'll still be in charge and be able to get your overinflated paychecks back eventually."

Unfortunately for small businesses on the other hand, there's little they can do except hope for public support (such as a local level of protectionism I guess, you know, buy local goods) or that banks might see them as lower risk, and thus will loan exclusively to them under strict conditions (either that or government should grant special subsidies, eligible tax breaks and support a small business trading market system exclusive for small businesses, so they support each other supply wise, providing if that doesn't exist already).

But even if you could solve those issues somehow, the situation gets worse; if what I hear is correct, the amount of total (official and estimated unofficial) debt/risk based on derivatives, credit default swaps, etc is around 530 trillion dollars, with the maximum estimate exceeding 1 quadrillion. Considering that world GDP is $54.62 trillion, well... the total debt/risk is approximately 10 to 20 times over that amount. Even if about 1% of those debt/risk were to fail, it would destroy the global economy easily, and that would cause eventual riots, wars and famine.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: odeon on March 10, 2009, 01:22:28 AM
That's pretty much it, yes, put in so many words.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Christopher McCandless on March 10, 2009, 02:16:48 PM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Don't be so sure. There's no point in lending if it's fantasy money to begin with.
Is there such a thing these days as non-fantasy money?
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: odeon on March 10, 2009, 03:27:37 PM
I'm sure you can tell us. ::)
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: ProfessorFarnsworth on March 10, 2009, 07:43:10 PM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Don't be so sure. There's no point in lending if it's fantasy money to begin with.
Is there such a thing these days as non-fantasy money?

Money that is backed by actual gold or by other commodities, it still exists. Credit is nothing more than an I.O.U + Interest really, hence fantasy money because it doesn't exist until the debtor pays the loan back, with real money that is backed by commodities.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: jman on March 10, 2009, 08:31:27 PM
The only thing I want out of a 'stimulus' package is a nice hot readhead sucking my dick  :wanker:

but seriously both stimulus packages are a joke, especially the first one passed under Bush.

From what I understand the gov't tried a similar approach during the Great Depression and it didn't work.

They should let the market correct itself instead wasting tax money by interfering, they're only making things worse in the long run IMHO.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Christopher McCandless on March 10, 2009, 08:45:00 PM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Don't be so sure. There's no point in lending if it's fantasy money to begin with.
Is there such a thing these days as non-fantasy money?

Money that is backed by actual gold or by other commodities, it still exists. Credit is nothing more than an I.O.U + Interest really, hence fantasy money because it doesn't exist until the debtor pays the loan back, with real money that is backed by commodities.
Well if you believe in it, by all means by it. Equally, its as much as a gamble as currency.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Callaway on March 11, 2009, 01:16:08 PM
The only thing I want out of a 'stimulus' package is a nice hot readhead sucking my dick  :wanker:

but seriously both stimulus packages are a joke, especially the first one passed under Bush.

From what I understand the gov't tried a similar approach during the Great Depression and it didn't work.

They should let the market correct itself instead wasting tax money by interfering, they're only making things worse in the long run IMHO.

What they did in the Great Depression was different, since they started lots of public works projects that directly gave unemployed people jobs such as building roads through mountains or building the Hoover Dam.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Parts on March 11, 2009, 01:35:27 PM
The only thing I want out of a 'stimulus' package is a nice hot readhead sucking my dick  :wanker:

but seriously both stimulus packages are a joke, especially the first one passed under Bush.

From what I understand the gov't tried a similar approach during the Great Depression and it didn't work.

They should let the market correct itself instead wasting tax money by interfering, they're only making things worse in the long run IMHO.

What they did in the Great Depression was different, since they started lots of public works projects that directly gave unemployed people jobs such as building roads through mountains or building the Hoover Dam.


The CCC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: driftingblizzard on March 17, 2009, 01:22:21 PM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Don't be so sure. There's no point in lending if it's fantasy money to begin with.
Is there such a thing these days as non-fantasy money?

Money that is backed by actual gold or by other commodities, it still exists. Credit is nothing more than an I.O.U + Interest really, hence fantasy money because it doesn't exist until the debtor pays the loan back, with real money that is backed by commodities.

Gold is nothing but dirt...
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: ProfessorFarnsworth on March 17, 2009, 05:15:38 PM
That was very different. The rest of the western world was not in recession.
Slightly different. If they can get lending working again most of the problems will eventually go away tbh. Public's works projects are a very good way of improving the infrastructure whilst stopping mass unemployment.

Don't be so sure. There's no point in lending if it's fantasy money to begin with.
Is there such a thing these days as non-fantasy money?

Money that is backed by actual gold or by other commodities, it still exists. Credit is nothing more than an I.O.U + Interest really, hence fantasy money because it doesn't exist until the debtor pays the loan back, with real money that is backed by commodities.

Gold is nothing but dirt...

At about $920 per ounce currently, it's very expensive dirt nonetheless. It's recognized as a global tender and the total sum of banknotes in current times, must be backed by gold reserves in government treasuries for it to be worth any real value. Let me put it this way, in a major financial crisis when it costs billions of dollars worth of banknotes to buy a loaf of bread due to hyperinflation, gold is useful to have for a tender to buy, sell or trade, even jewelery too. I know this because my relatives in Germany back in the Great Depression had to sell their jewelery for food to survive, as the banknotes were worthless.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: vodz on April 06, 2009, 06:36:48 AM
I just got a one-off stimuli of $950. Thank you government! :zoinks:
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: renaeden on April 06, 2009, 07:42:01 AM
I got that, too. :) What did you buy?

I bought a microwave (our old one quit working about a month ago), a single seat lounge chair and a new pair of shoes because my old ones are falling apart. I still have some money left. Might get my car serviced with it.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Phlexor on April 07, 2009, 02:41:32 AM
You wouldn't believe how much we got, around $3000.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: punkdrew on April 07, 2009, 11:33:38 PM
Yes, thank the gov't for what it never should have taken in the 1st place.

"If the Mob does it, it's extorsion. If the govt does it, it's legal."--Robert Anton Wilson, REALITY IS WHAT YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: vodz on April 08, 2009, 06:24:43 AM
I got that, too. :) What did you buy?

I bought a microwave (our old one quit working about a month ago), a single seat lounge chair and a new pair of shoes because my old ones are falling apart. I still have some money left. Might get my car serviced with it.

I'm saving up for a laptop, so for now it's sitting in my higher-interest account.

Noice avatar btw ;)
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: McGiver on April 08, 2009, 06:45:43 AM
one way for the taxpayers to get their money back from the banks is...
walk away from your home.

if you bought a home in the past five years then stop making payments.  it will take about a year fro the bank to get you out of the home.  meanwhile, you can save all that money you are currently paying for your mortgage.  and on the brightside, it only takes three years after a forclosure to qualify for an FHA loan.   and, in three to four years is about a good time to buy again, considering the recession should be over, people will just be getting back on their feet, and the housing market would have likely bottomed out and leveled off by then.


stimulate yourselves people.  screw the banks.


Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Christopher McCandless on April 09, 2009, 04:15:15 AM
one way for the taxpayers to get their money back from the banks is...
walk away from your home.

if you bought a home in the past five years then stop making payments.  it will take about a year fro the bank to get you out of the home.  meanwhile, you can save all that money you are currently paying for your mortgage.  and on the brightside, it only takes three years after a forclosure to qualify for an FHA loan.   and, in three to four years is about a good time to buy again, considering the recession should be over, people will just be getting back on their feet, and the housing market would have likely bottomed out and leveled off by then.


stimulate yourselves people.  screw the banks.



That is one hell of a gamble, my money is that eventually they will get around to tightening up who can get credit and with a shot credit rating you have little chance of getting any form of loan.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Small Penis on April 09, 2009, 05:57:40 AM
one way for the taxpayers to get their money back from the banks is...
walk away from your home.

if you bought a home in the past five years then stop making payments.  it will take about a year fro the bank to get you out of the home.  meanwhile, you can save all that money you are currently paying for your mortgage.  and on the brightside, it only takes three years after a forclosure to qualify for an FHA loan.   and, in three to four years is about a good time to buy again, considering the recession should be over, people will just be getting back on their feet, and the housing market would have likely bottomed out and leveled off by then.


stimulate yourselves people.  screw the banks.



That is one hell of a gamble, my money is that eventually they will get around to tightening up who can get credit and with a shot credit rating you have little chance of getting any form of loan.
wanna lick my nut sack tonight?
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: McGiver on April 21, 2009, 06:52:18 AM
one way for the taxpayers to get their money back from the banks is...
walk away from your home.

if you bought a home in the past five years then stop making payments.  it will take about a year fro the bank to get you out of the home.  meanwhile, you can save all that money you are currently paying for your mortgage.  and on the brightside, it only takes three years after a forclosure to qualify for an FHA loan.   and, in three to four years is about a good time to buy again, considering the recession should be over, people will just be getting back on their feet, and the housing market would have likely bottomed out and leveled off by then.


stimulate yourselves people.  screw the banks.



That is one hell of a gamble, my money is that eventually they will get around to tightening up who can get credit and with a shot credit rating you have little chance of getting any form of loan.
i doubt that.

big business relies on credit flowing to the poor so they can charge you much for less.

either credit needs to flow, or the common worker needs better wages.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: TheoK on April 21, 2009, 06:57:59 AM
You can't buy houses and land here like you could before. My parents have a garden that is 3/4 of an acre. When my granddad bought it in 1959, it cost about $800 in the currency back then. Today, with the bigger house and the higher estate prices it'd cost about $200000...
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Callaway on April 22, 2009, 01:41:22 AM
one way for the taxpayers to get their money back from the banks is...
walk away from your home.

if you bought a home in the past five years then stop making payments.  it will take about a year fro the bank to get you out of the home.  meanwhile, you can save all that money you are currently paying for your mortgage.  and on the brightside, it only takes three years after a forclosure to qualify for an FHA loan.   and, in three to four years is about a good time to buy again, considering the recession should be over, people will just be getting back on their feet, and the housing market would have likely bottomed out and leveled off by then.


stimulate yourselves people.  screw the banks.



That is one hell of a gamble, my money is that eventually they will get around to tightening up who can get credit and with a shot credit rating you have little chance of getting any form of loan.
i doubt that.

big business relies on credit flowing to the poor so they can charge you much for less.

either credit needs to flow, or the common worker needs better wages.

Good point.  Plus if a poor person can't even get credit but wants to buy new things anyway, they're screwed big time.  They have those rent-to-own stores that completely gouge people with the prices they wind up paying for the stuff they get.  If it were interest they were paying as opposed to "rent-to-own" prices, it would be usurious.  And of course if they can't afford to keep up paying those inflated prices, their stuff gets reposessed.
Title: Re: Stimulus
Post by: Parts on April 22, 2009, 10:55:16 PM
one way for the taxpayers to get their money back from the banks is...
walk away from your home.

if you bought a home in the past five years then stop making payments.  it will take about a year fro the bank to get you out of the home.  meanwhile, you can save all that money you are currently paying for your mortgage.  and on the brightside, it only takes three years after a forclosure to qualify for an FHA loan.   and, in three to four years is about a good time to buy again, considering the recession should be over, people will just be getting back on their feet, and the housing market would have likely bottomed out and leveled off by then.


stimulate yourselves people.  screw the banks.



That is one hell of a gamble, my money is that eventually they will get around to tightening up who can get credit and with a shot credit rating you have little chance of getting any form of loan.
i doubt that.

big business relies on credit flowing to the poor so they can charge you much for less.

either credit needs to flow, or the common worker needs better wages.

Good point.  Plus if a poor person can't even get credit but wants to buy new things anyway, they're screwed big time.  They have those rent-to-own stores that completely gouge people with the prices they wind up paying for the stuff they get.  If it were interest they were paying as opposed to "rent-to-own" prices, it would be usurious.  And of course if they can't afford to keep up paying those inflated prices, their stuff gets reposessed.

Read some of the stuff here about them http://rent-a-center.pissedconsumer.com/