INTENSITY²
Politics, Mature and taboo => Political Pundits => Topic started by: RobertN on July 22, 2006, 11:15:38 AM
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Time for some real politics. Personally, I think the Israelis are shits. They should pull out and repair all the damage they have done to Lebanon including pay compensation to civilian families whom have suffered casalties as a result of the airstrikes. They should also pay other foreign powers who used up considerable amounts of their own resources evacuating people from Lebanon.
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i really cannot be arsed to form an opinion on this.
i believe, as an american, that we have stuck our noses in way too many places that it doesn't belong. exerting our will on the rest of the world is wrong.
let them figure out their own mess.
according to the bible, however, these are the end of times. Pat Robertson told me that.
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Ultimately the Israelis had to do what they did: Too many countries had already captured Israeli soldiers to bargain with them (I've read it has happened several times in the past, Israel had to show that they weren't going to take any shit anymore.
I've heard an Israeli diplomat official (of some sort) quoted as saying he'd prefer the world to hate Israel for staying alive rather than honor them after they were all wiped out. I can't fault em for that
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I think this situation is pretty fucked-up, as if the Israel military started on Lebanon while they were stoned.
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The situation shows a typical Israeli overreaction to the capture of one soldier. How arrogant of them to wipe out whole families and make life awkward and scary for millions as a result of one Israeli soldier capture and a couple of tiny rockets (with no civillian deaths) landing on them. They are creating more 'terrorists' than they are tackling.
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Time for some real politics. Personally, I think the Israelis are shits. They should pull out and repair all the damage they have done to Lebanon including pay compensation to civilian families whom have suffered casalties as a result of the airstrikes. They should also pay other foreign powers who used up considerable amounts of their own resources evacuating people from Lebanon.
Gee, what a surprise that you'd sympathize with Israel's enemies. Socialists can only see the world in terms of weak vs strong, so they will always side with whomever they perceive to be weak. It saves having to make any moral judgements.
Never mind that Hezbollah and Hamas want to wipe Israel off the map, and that they've been sending thousands of shells into Israel ever since the Gaza withdrawal.
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They are creating more 'terrorists' than they are tackling.
IMHO, Muslims carry out terrorist attacks against Israel because
1. Israel exists
2. This is what Islam tells them to do
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They are creating more 'terrorists' than they are tackling.
It's Islam that creates the terrorists.
You have the cheek to accuse socialists of being one-sided. Yes, Islam has it's problems but the Israeli's consitently over-react with savage force and are creating problems for themselves further down the line.
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They are creating more 'terrorists' than they are tackling.
It's Islam that creates the terrorists.
You have the cheek to accuse socialists of being one-sided. Yes, Islam has it's problems but the Israeli's consitently over-react with savage force and are creating problems for themselves further down the line.
Maybe the Israelis' responses are often ill-judged. I wouldn't want to say what I think they should do instead. It's too easy to be an armchair military expert.
What I would say is that giving away land for peace hasn't worked either.
Actually, I'm sort of with McJagger on this. I'm not all that interested.
I just hope that fucking hubristic idiot, Tony Blair doesn't start fancying himself to sort the mess out.
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I think Israel should retreat to 1967 borders as advised by the UN. It's easy to be armchair military experts, that's true but history has shown us that this kind of over-reaction brings extreme reaction from the other side.
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and exactly how the first world war started. in a way.
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They are creating more 'terrorists' than they are tackling.
IMHO, Muslims carry out terrorist attacks against Israel because
1. Israel exists
2. This is what Islam tells them to do
And the ancient aliens think they can lord it over the Middle East because several thousand years ago this guy called Abraham had a vision from God promising him that his descendants (the Jews) will inherit the whole area. Now if that isn't religious fundamentalism, then I don't know what is. The Palestinians were there first. Theoretically Israel has no right to exist. However, it is there now so we have to put up with it. I think they should stick with the 1967 borders and a UN force should make sure both the Arabs and the ancient aliens stick to the agreement.
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where is praetor?
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You know RobertN, I used to think some what like You, but over the years I think I will side with Israel. Until all the countries that have gone or even support the Israelites destruction. The Middle East has always been a hot bed of conflict. It will always be that too. As long some of the religious Muslim Leaders keep on proclaiming the destruction of Israel. It will always be like that. The Israelites have been through a lot since the first days of the founding of Israel. It is always easy to blame Israel and Israelites for everything that is going on there in the Middle East. Arafat could have had 98% percent of the West Bank but did not take it and as long there are Palestinians will to use terrorism to why should there be a Palestinian State. Israel has faced terrorism and terrorists since the beginning of Israel. The Jews have been blamed for many things and 6 million Jews died in Europe during World War II. The World still comes against Jews around the World and whatever Israel does. Though whose has been the aggressor the Arab States all around them. Two Arab countries now have Peace Treaties with Israel if Egypt and Jordan can have Peace with Israel. Why can not the rest of them? Until that day they will not be peace in the Middle East.
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Here's what I don't understand... say if Mexican terrorists were sytematically targeting the United States by launching rockets over the border, kidnapping US soldiers, sending suicide bombers into US grocery stores and malls... would the US then not have the right to launch a military incursion into Mexico?
One thing I will say in defense of Israel is that its actions are always viewed through a microscope and judged by sticter standards than that of other countries. This however is something the Jews have brought upon themselves, as they claim to be the harbingers of morality to the western world, yet their religion is based an apartheid system. So because of their alleged heightened morality (which they claim themselves from a societal/ religious perspective-- see books like "The Gift of the Jews") that Israel's behavior is viewed with greater scrutiny.
The Arab world has sprouted a vicious anti-Semitism that would make Hitler blush. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were being openly distributed at the 2001 World Conference against Racism in South Africa, just days before the attacks on the Trade Center and Pentagon.
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You know RobertN, I used to think some what like You, but over the years I think I will side with Israel. Until all the countries that have gone or even support the Israelites destruction. The Middle East has always been a hot bed of conflict. It will always be that too. As long some of the religious Muslim Leaders keep on proclaiming the destruction of Israel. It will always be like that. The Israelites have been through a lot since the first days of the founding of Israel. It is always easy to blame Israel and Israelites for everything that is going on there in the Middle East. Arafat could have had 98% percent of the West Bank but did not take it and as long there are Palestinians will to use terrorism to why should there be a Palestinian State. Israel has faced terrorism and terrorists since the beginning of Israel. The Jews have been blamed for many things and 6 million Jews died in Europe during World War II. The World still comes against Jews around the World and whatever Israel does. Though whose has been the aggressor the Arab States all around them. Two Arab countries now have Peace Treaties with Israel if Egypt and Jordan can have Peace with Israel. Why can not the rest of them? Until that day they will not be peace in the Middle East.
No. Israel have been terrorists themselves in the early days. When the British ruled that region (up until 1948), the ancient aliens used to attack us in a similar way that Hezbollah attacks Israel now. Except we (the British) didn't bomb the hell out of the region in retaliation. Britain withdrew in 1948, leaving an absolute mess. Israel achieved what it has achieved mainly using terrorist tactics against the more powerful Arab states in 1950's and 1960's. Indeed, they had a right to defend themselves, but they still used terrorist tactics. So how dare they condemn Hezbollah for using the same tactics they themselves used in the past. The so called "Islamic Militants" are only trying to free Palestine from the ancient aliens (don't forget, they were there first).
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it seems to me that all the troubles in the middle east and in africa and parts of asia are a result of brittain not cleaning their own house.
Now, poor america gets to clean up their mess all over the world. Jesus Christ you brittish imperialist bastards. start pointing the finger at yourselves.
Be-otches.
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it seems to me that all the troubles in the middle east and in africa and parts of asia are a result of brittain not cleaning their own house.
Now, poor america gets to clean up their mess all over the world. Jesus Christ you brittish imperialist bastards. start pointing the finger at yourselves.
Be-otches.
:laugh:
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Sorry Robert You are wrong.
The Arabs over the years tried to stop Israel from forming in the end. Especially after Word War I to the time of World War II. Check these links out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Palestine_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Uprising
So Who was using terrorism first?
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i am not wrong.
it was brittish ruled until after WWII when it was given to israel as renumerations for the atrocity of the holocaust.
the just left and said here you go.
wtf.
its like cating daniel into the lions den
and brittain wasn't even going to stand as shadrack mishack or obindigo. the US had to step in as all three.
india, all of africa and several other points around the world.
hey, what ever became of th3e falkland islands?
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I was just reading this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/perry.tyre/index.html
about a family hit by israeli bombs... they had a picture of a burned boy who had blood coming out of his eyes. When I clicked on the article again, they had removed the picture, and just had the less graphic picture of the mother crying over her burned baby.
edit-- both pics are back up now...
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What is wrong with this world?
???
It's not just Israel, RobertN; Israel's actions pale in comparison to the rapacious militarism of the United States.
I just really think that after all these years and years of evolution we would have figured out a better solution to solving problems than blowing each other up. This goes for Israel, Africa, ISlamists, everyone...
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maybe what the world needs is the preservative maternal instincts of women.
perhaps women should start to be the world leaders...
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maybe what the world needs is the preservative maternal instincts of women.
perhaps women should start to be the world leaders...
like thatcher, golda meir and indira ghandi, you mean?
women are just as capable of being thugs as men - i cite the three examples above. the nurturing female is as much of a stereotype as the dumb blonde.
not having a go at you, mcj, by the way - just pointing it out.
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i was talking about world leaders, not token puppets.
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thatcher was a puppet?!!
:D
christ - i wouldn't want to meet whoever was working her... :o
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thatcher was a puppet?!!
:D
christ - i wouldn't want to meet whoever was working her... :o
Dr. Evil, obviously. :angel:
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the point of the token puppet also has to do with the timing of it all.
Roe v Wade had alot to do with the womens movement. most of the important women thwere offered up as token leaders during a time of civil unrest (it was happening all over the world throughout the seventies). i wonder why we haven't seen any since, and why we haven't seen more women as world leaders since. and why were they all similar politically to the american republican party, which, BTW, has a difficult time getting the womens vote.
they were tokens.
i really think that we need to see more women in the capacity of world leader.
my issue is with the womens movement. it seemed to have finally given women a voice and a fair shake, but it left the differing roles (men and women) in limbo. women gained these things but they were not given any sort of rume book (or an example to look up to). women seem lost now. not sure of their position in the world. the only thing they know for sure is their instincts (which conflict with their modern role) and the fact that they don't want to hear shit from their man. otherwise they are not percieved as strong women.
lucifer, you seem concerned with the plight of women. why is it that the greatest examples of the womens movement seemed to have been timed. why aren't their more world leaders, today, who are women?
it is an old boys club. and it all boils down to money.
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i am not wrong.
it was brittish ruled until after WWII when it was given to israel as renumerations for the atrocity of the holocaust.
the just left and said here you go.
wtf.
its like cating daniel into the lions den
and brittain wasn't even going to stand as shadrack mishack or obindigo. the US had to step in as all three.
india, all of africa and several other points around the world.
hey, what ever became of th3e falkland islands?
The British dismantled their Empire after WW2, and the Middle East was just a part of it. We shouldn't have been there in the first place, but it was good of us to grant our colonies their independence.
America on the other hand has not sorted a single thing out. They only interfere when there is oil involved.
Did they go into Iraq? Yes there was oil.
Did they go into Kuwait? Yes there was oil.
Did they go into Lebanon? No - there is no oil.
Did they go into Sudan? No - there is no oil.
America are not saints going around sorting out world problems. They are greedy capitalist pigs who just want oil.
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vietnamh, korea, afghanistan, all over south america.
nice way to shortside the examples to prove your point. yes i would agree that the bush family is an oil family. you get that one robert.
the brittish made the mistake of putting a shock to the system. if you jusyt pull out, what do you think happens? their hand picked civil war puppets take over.
better yet, and more accurately, the extremely wealthy brittish who have dug in their heels (in whichever particular region we are talking) do NOT go away and they promote civil wars as a divide and conquer tactic. until that is, they have raped the country dry of all its natural resources.
yes, these same people whp help your brittish politicians get reelected. it is no accident that the brits withdrew. the powerful remain powerful by raping the rest of us of everything we have.
any brittish withdrawl has NOT been done for the good of the 'colonies', it has happened to satisfy the greed of your brittish elite.
america, has been busy sending aid to these war torn countries.
the point here, is that brittain is no better than america. you cannot take the noral highground with us. you brits, have shown us americans how to be underhanded and greedy.
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maybe what the world needs is the preservative maternal instincts of women.
perhaps women should start to be the world leaders...
like thatcher, golda meir and indira ghandi, you mean?
women are just as capable of being thugs as men - i cite the three examples above. the nurturing female is as much of a stereotype as the dumb blonde.Â
not having a go at you, mcj, by the way - just pointing it out.
Yes, of course you can always find exceptions to any stereotype. So what? It doesn't necessarily make all generalisations invalid.
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The women you mention, lucifer, had primarily male administrations and advisors. Maybe things would have been different if everyone in an administrative position were female...
I know women can be dark and evil too, yet war seems to be primarily, though not exclusively, the progeny of men. Women DO participate, I know that, but overwhelmingly it seems to be a male phenomena...
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i entirely agree, shima. and with your point, beowulf.
but i still think it's dangerous to accept such sweeping generalisations (i.e. stereotypes) as The Truth - after all, where would that leave people with AS?
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It is an interesting question though - are there more thug men in positions of authority because men are more likely to be thugs, or because men are more likely to be in positions of authority.
I do think women are more nuturing than men by nature, but being a 'thug' is an easily learned and nuture trumping behavior.
"The Devil Wears Prada" anyone??
Orbit
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here is the way that i see it playing out: (generalization alert)
with women we would have fewer wars and less people starving to death. the way that the world leaders would solve disputes would be with backstabbing. yet, war would not break out as a result. the person having been backstabbed will never forget, and the cycle of one upsmanship would begin.
revenge is a dish best served cold. the way of the woman. women have more patience than men, when it comes to settling and old grudge.
and since women would be too busy running things (and traeting men fairer than men treated them) we could possibly solve our continued problem of overpopulation.l since the women couldn't be arsed, due to time constraints, and a drain on their valuable time.
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Some questions RobertN: Why are You so hard on Israel? Why do You scapegoat them so much? Why do You take the Arabs and Palestinians side so much more?
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The Americans have taken over where the British left off. As rapists of the worlds resources and leaving political instability in their wake. They are one-sided on the Israeli-Palestine situation as well. Yes women are more nurturing than men in general, that's why there tends to be less of them involved in world politics and wars and more of them involved in raising kids and working as nurses, primary school teachers etc. Maybe we should concentrate on world socialism where chances and opportunities are as equal as possible and there are no such things as wars over land because we are all part of one world. "Yes, you may say im a dreamer, but im not the only one....."
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and america pollutes, both the mind and lungs
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Maybe we should concentrate on world socialism where chances and opportunities are as equal as possible and there are no such things as wars over land because we are all part of one world. "Yes, you may say im a dreamer, but im not the only one....."
Well, that's what Bush and Blair are trying to achieve what with Blair selling out Britain's independence to the EU, Bush trying to create an open borders North American superstate, and both of them trying to bring "democracy" to a part of the world that has never had it and has never seemed to want it.
And a fine fucking mess it all is.
Yes, it might be nice if we could all live as one.
But the world ain't like that.
PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. Cultures are different. In some cases irreconcilably different.
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Some questions RobertN: Why are You so hard on Israel? Why do You scapegoat them so much? Why do You take the Arabs and Palestinians side so much more?
So Robert when will You answer My questions?
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while i'm thinking about it, beowulf...
you forget that thre doesn't seem like a big number, until you think of it as a percentage. do correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't meir the first female premier in modern times? of anywhere with any political clout in the world, that is. so that's roughly 3 out of 3 female leaders who were bullying, vicious thugs. hmmmm...
as for male advisers - i dunno so much about the other two, but thatcher did everything HER way, whether she was advised to the contrary or not. she was (and probably still is, for all i know) famous for that.
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i thought thatcher did everything reagan's way.
what ever happened to the fualkland islands?
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i thought thatcher did everything reagan's way.
what ever happened to the fualkland islands?
They are still apart of Great Britain.
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i think argentina should have them.
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Maybe the sheep should decide. ;D
(http://www.southern.com/southern/band/CRASS/pics/09429.jpg)
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are you trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
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no, that would be baaaaad.
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i heard that you brits are sheep faulkers.
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didn't we do most of the sheep jokes in one of the interminable happeh threads?
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i think argentina should have them.
It's right off the coast of Argentina and half-way across the world from Britain. Clearly it's British.
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lol.
i remember all the falkland war jokes, too - i was at college at the time. i helped make up a good one - something about corned beef and mushrooms, as i recall. sadly, the complete joke is lost in the mists of time (i.e., me being off my tits for most of that period).
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lol.
i remember all the falkland war jokes, too - i was at college at the time. i helped make up a good one - something about corned beef and mushrooms, as i recall. sadly, the complete joke is lost in the mists of time (i.e., me being off my tits for most of that period).
has anybody famous ever been on those tits?
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as far as i'm aware, i've never given birth to and suckled a famous person. mind you, anything could have happened when i was at college.
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(http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9827/israel20versus20arabs20cartoonbn8.jpg)
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(http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/8546/israel2mo9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Protect their own civilians, perhaps - but they kill everyone elses...
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The most annoying thing to me in this whole business is Israel's symbolic bombings. What the hell is the point of bombing an empty building? That's just wasteful, causes unnecessary damage, and civilians are the only ones that end up injured.
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I heard that 55% of those killed in Lebanon were children. :o >:( :'(
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serves them right for being towel heads.
-sean
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thank you, mcj - i needed a reminder of why i find sean so objectionable. ;D
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whew!
i thought the irony would be lost and i would take it in the arse for that comment.
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Time for some real politics. Personally, I think the Israelis are shits. They should pull out and repair all the damage they have done to Lebanon including pay compensation to civilian families whom have suffered casalties as a result of the airstrikes. They should also pay other foreign powers who used up considerable amounts of their own resources evacuating people from Lebanon.
Israel had the right to enter Lebanon to deal with Hezbollah, which the Lebanese government was unwilling or unable to do which was attacking Israel. Israel's incursion into Lebanon is totally self defensive.
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Time for some real politics. Personally, I think the Israelis are shits. They should pull out and repair all the damage they have done to Lebanon including pay compensation to civilian families whom have suffered casalties as a result of the airstrikes. They should also pay other foreign powers who used up considerable amounts of their own resources evacuating people from Lebanon.
Israel had the right to enter Lebanon to deal with Hezbollah, which the Lebanese government was unwilling or unable to do which was attacking Israel. Israel's incursion into Lebanon is totally self defensive.
Totally agree.
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i likw the way that kevv thinks!
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Did they really need to defend themselves with that much force though? And what about more than half of the victims being children? :-\ I'm not siding with Lebanon, but I really don't think the way Israel responded was right.
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If the terrorists did not use civilians to hide behind it would be better. Lebanon was suppose to disarm Hezbollah but did not that is apart of the problem Lebanon government is to weak.
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Did they really need to defend themselves with that much force though? And what about more than half of the victims being children? :-\ I'm not siding with Lebanon, but I really don't think the way Israel responded was right.
I don't know precisely what that's about but here's one major difference between radical Muslims and us - they'll gladly kill their own and put them in the way of harm just because, they're take seems to be that to die in furthering the cause of Allah means you'll get the highest honors possible in heaven. This is why when I hear stuff like this I could imagine them loading up the Hezbollah or Hamas cubscouts into buildings that they may have used as headquarters, it goes back to their philosophy on life and death itself being much different than ours (unless your the guys in Russia holding school kids hostage - they got scared and ran out the back door). The other reason that doesn't seem as far fetched a possibility as a lot of people might think it should by reading that suggestion, death over life psychology and all, is that it was reported by various news agencies that they actually were hiding those little stinger missiles, some of the larger rockets they were trying to get in, and even headquartering in apartment buildings (trying to find the most civilian populace areas they could). There were Lebanese also complaining and furious about Hezbollah telling them that they needed their property, they'd run rocket launchers and wires up to the ruff, and then they'd fire off the rockets from the safety of a house 3 or 4 doors down. Also, it was cited that they fought in civilian clothing and would walk by soldiers looking innocent at times only to grab up their guns and pop slugs into their backs. The lack of military garbs wasn't even because they didn't have them,, just that the military uniforms are for parades not fighting. I think they know that much of Europe's media is very much on their side and they seem to take as full of an advantage as they can of it.
What would really suck though, as I think about it, I can't imagine being an Israeli commander having to look at the nightmare of dealing with the kind of triage it would take to defend onesself against an enemy like that. It's a real shame that while we and many other countries in the western world get criticised left and right for human rights and whether or not we're following the Geneva convention most of the people we're having to take on and some of our toughest critics flat out don't believe in or follow the Geneva convention at all (its really their joke on us to see us running around trying to kiss ass after we've been accused of breaking it, seeing a world superpower or a few world superpowers being that weak and kind must be a real trip).
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All Your points techstepgenr8tion that You have made are true and correct.
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Time for some real politics. Personally, I think the Israelis are shits. They should pull out and repair all the damage they have done to Lebanon including pay compensation to civilian families whom have suffered casalties as a result of the airstrikes. They should also pay other foreign powers who used up considerable amounts of their own resources evacuating people from Lebanon.
Wow!! talk about birds of a feather... ::)