INTENSITY²
Start here => Free For ALL => Topic started by: DirtDawg on September 24, 2008, 06:19:44 PM
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I am really pissed, because the schools are teaching loads of bullshit again to the kids.
The focus lately has been Green Living.
Guess what!
Most of what they are instilling into our impressionable young children is total bullshit.
Yes, per unit of heat exchange, electrical microwave cooking of fresh (grown a few feet away) vegetables and some meats (again, local!!) is a savings in carbon exchange over standard gas or electric heated ranges .....
..... but NOT when you buy prepackaged (one third packaging, two thirds product by weight - if you're lucky, FFS!!) convenience foods, which have been over-processed by massively inefficient mass production factories, mass marketed through mass media to the mass advertised coupon mass market for the food-on-the-go-for-a-busy-SUV-driving-soccer-mom mass market and then mass transported, enmasse to every mass marketer market in the fucking country, FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111
How the fuck can we RE-educate our children after their being subjected to this kind of nonsense. The "Wholey Gray-all" of the teachings my kids are tested on is to "Grab EASY stuff and stick it in the Microwave" to save the planet.
:hair:
Any suggestions to help the kids rise above the BS they are being taught on this particular issue are welcome.
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I cringe when my daughter whose 8 comes home with these "facts" my sons are older and I have taught them to be skeptical. Your right though it's not just the kids though I have met many adults who have fallen for the green monster. I actually sell real green products but some of the stuff they sell as green is bullshit and the facts they give just as bad.
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I cringe when my daughter whose 8 comes home with these "facts" my sons are older and I have taught them to be skeptical. Your right though it's not just the kids though I have met many adults who have fallen for the green monster. I actually sell real green products but some of the stuff they sell as green is bullshit and the facts they give just as bad.
Unfortunately mine are seven and nine, so they still soak up everything to which they are exposed.
My horror is from the past months, when they have accepted everything at face-value, because I have trained them to trust their teachers. "Trusted Adults," "Safe Places" and all that ...
Trust is an issue with young ones, but thinking for oneself must rule.
It is tough being a "teacher."
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My husband and I try to teach our daughter to think for herself, but her teachers' ideas definitely have a lot of influence on her. For example, neither my husband nor I are vegetarians, and she complains every time she sees us eat meat. I think that those ideas probably originated with some of her teachers.
We did teach her to microwave convenience foods like Easy Mac, but that's because we see the microwave as less likely to hurt her than the stove or oven.
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My husband and I try to teach our daughter to think for herself, but her teachers' ideas definitely have a lot of influence on her. For example, neither my husband nor I are vegetarians, and she complains every time she sees us eat meat. I think that those ideas probably originated with some of her teachers.
We did teach her to microwave convenience foods like Easy Mac, but that's because we see the microwave as less likely to hurt her than the stove or oven.
Hmmm, I started the other direction. I made them aware of the dangers of the stove, long before they were allowed to touch the microwave.
I see the electric range as more a danger to the house than the microwave and for a long time I was very worried about one of them starting a fire, just playing around.
There's no way to make the range safe, so I gave them a respect for it. I actually started a grease fire for each of them, so they could see how easy it could be to burn down the house.
I see the microwave as being a "more dangerous to a kid," appliance because they could easily overheat something and there may be no outward sign of how hot an item could be inside, while something too hot to touch on the range is often steaming.
Anyway, it is the thinking that Easy Mac is green and will save our planet if we use it, that I want to combat. They are just not able to think globally, yet. I need some pointers to help get them there.
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I think the best bet is to totally screw the planet, then we won't have any planet to worry about, even with false education. :: nods ::
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The trouble I had with the "green living" propaganda taught in my grade school had less to do with incorrect information than the attitude with which it was taught. Around 4th-5th grade we had dolphins and otters and oil spills shoved down our throats until, without comprehending any of the valid issues behind it, I reacted to any mention of environmentalism with "blech, get it away from me". Environmentalism was what the good little girls parroted in order to please the teachers. My knee-jerk disgust with it lasted long beyond the point where I should have started thinking for myself, even though my parents taught me early to make my own judgments.
A small example of the way in which we were implicitly taught that environmentalism was stupid, while they probably thought they were instilling its importance: one of the highlights of the year was the halloween class decoration contest. One year we spent weeks skipping recess to prepare everything from a cardboard box haunted house with a kid inside running puppets in the windows, to dozens of unique paper pumpkins. The next year we were told that our class would not be participating in the contest because decorations were not environmentally friendly. If protecting the environment means only taking away fun, and not any kind of thrill of encountering the wild, what kid is going to adopt it, and for what reasons?
I don't know how to teach kids to think except by encouraging it when they do, even if they're disagreeing with you. Long term I think what's needed is the spread of the idea that environmentalism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive. I guess shorter term would be more money/resources for education, to call in better quality teachers who'd let less misinformation get through. For me, rising above the BS took finding some of the inherent value of places not overrun by humans. That started at a church camp I went to when I was young, first with parents and then alone. It was reinforced through my love of fantasy, because I wanted there to still be places left on Earth to have adventures. It took a hit when I got into capitalist philosophy, and then swung back when I acknowledged the need for balance.
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Well there we go. Propaganda. You're not going to to much education from propaganda.
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i heard that hybrids are worse than hummers.
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The corporate world grabs the latest trend and then markets it to everyone. They are trying to sell you a feeling, and they will lie cheat and steal to get it into your hands and your money into their pockets.
They know you are going to try and figure out real green from fake green and they are going to make it as hard as possible to do.
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I never learnt much in school - they are more to do with brain-washing and indoctrination rather than education.
I read somewhere that if I turned all appliances off at the mains rather than leaving the little red standby light on, then I could save £300 per year. I don't know where they get these figures from, I don't believe it.
I don't know about any suggestions to improve the situation.
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I love the mobile phone charger myth:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06/20/mackay_on_carbon_free_uk/
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I never learnt much in school - they are more to do with brain-washing and indoctrination rather than education.
I read somewhere that if I turned all appliances off at the mains rather than leaving the little red standby light on, then I could save £300 per year. I don't know where they get these figures from, I don't believe it.
I don't know about any suggestions to improve the situation.
I'm sure you'd save some but not 300 pounds
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There are "instant On" functions built into many types of appliances, especially televisions, computer monitors, some audio gear, coffee makers that preheat the water, etc, all of which consume quite a bit of power as they keep the devices "ready to go." Timers on these types of appliances (including water heaters, air conditioning) make more sense than leaving them on for the life of the equipment.
Most other things only power a small electronic clock or simply an LED to making finding the "On" switch easier.
DC chargers for cell phones, MP3 players, cameras or other portable devices which are plugged in do not consume an appreciable amount of power, until you plug in the device to re-charge the batteries. Most of these things have high-tech batteries, which require "Smart Chargers," which stop the current flow once the battery is charged, too.
Admittedly, having billions of these little clocks and LED things all draining our planet of energy probably speeds up something, but these scientist people, draining grant money from our tax bases, need to think more in terms of immediate re-thinking of all our energy systems, not just prolonging the status quo.
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It's a 'popular' issue lots of people are getting on the bandwagon for. I don't know what to believe and what not to because I haven't looked much into it.
And I agree with DD- one crisis at a time, please. Yes, we need to think long-term, but if you totally neglect what's happening now, you fuck the long-term, too.
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I try my best to keep my own little corner of the planet, clean and green, recycle, reuse, as much as possible. But, this bullshit green fad is really cynical commercialism on the big corporations part. If the majority of humanity wasn't such sheep, we wouldn't have all the problems we do now.
**ozymandias shakes his head and decides to take a walk down his road and pick up the trash that litters the roadside since the the last time he picked up the crap. Two days ago.**
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This thread is very interesting to me. At an early age, I’m talking before I even hit double digits, I became a self-proclaimed environmentalist. Growing up as one during the excess of the 80’s resulted in being made fun of quite a bit. So much of what I was taught at an early age made me sick. Stuff like the Earth was provided for man to do as he wished, and other nonsense. I decided I would do whatever I could do to reduce my impact on the environment. It started off with recycling everything and anything I could. Gradually as I got older and much more wise, I was able to start reducing my waste. I would ask myself, “Even if the packaging is recyclable, is there an alternative that has even less impact?” In high school I was vocal about environmentalism, which made me even less popular. Apparently, making suggestions on how to be “more responsible” kind of pisses people off.
One of my first jobs was working for a landscaping crew that cut all of the grass alongside the roads and on the medians in Virginia Beach, VA. My buddy and I were the “blowers.” Ha ha! I know what you’re thinking. Anyway, our first task was to clear the roads of litter before the mowers came through. Then we would be taken back to the beginning of the road and start blowing the grass clippings back up into the grass and off of the road. Being environmentally conscious, we alternated days in which one of us carried a recycle bag, in addition to a trash bag. On a weekly basis we would fill up the entire bed of my buddy’s pick-up truck and take it down to the City recycling facility. We were not told to do this. It was not in the contract with the City. It was just something that my friend and I decided should be done and we were willing to make the effort. The City ended up praising us while taking credit for what we did of our own accord.
In college, I participated in environmental activities and promoted environmental causes. Now that I was living on my own and buying my own stuff, I realized how much waste there was in plastic and paper bags at grocery, and other, stores. I made a conscious decision to no longer get bags and started bringing my own hemp and canvas bags. Since I made that decision 17 years ago, I have not once gotten a plastic or paper bag. Early on, I took a lot of flack. For “security” reasons, the merchants would claim they “have to” put my merchandise in their bag. This made no sense to me. If I bought it, and I had a receipt, where is the problem? When a merchant would not back down, I simply walked away and did not pay for the stuff. In more recent years I have become known as the eccentric “bag man” in this town. I love the fact that when I go to Europe, mostly Germany, many merchants do not even have bags and you are expected to bring your own. It in fact saves them money and is environmentally responsible as well. Why this is so hard to catch on, I cannot understand. Oh…wait a minute. Americans are lazy, selfish fucks, so if there is any effort to “being green” the rest of us can fuck off.
With the popularity of “being green” growing, it has become accepted and followed, to some extent anyway, by many more people. I don’t see this as a bad thing, but part of me is buggered by the fact I was preaching this same stuff 20 years ago and nobody would listen. But I digress. It is more important that people are starting to take a more responsible attitude towards their impact to the planet. I am also not bothered so much by the commercialism of “being green”, as one of the arguments me and my fellow environmentalists used to make was that companies could make money off of this if they would just commit to it. Unfortunately, humans are inherently selfish, which is one of the reasons I abhor Capitalism. Look at where the US economy is now! Greedy mortgage companies took advantage of people who had no business taking out such huge loans, especially with variable interest rates. Now, I have to pay to bail out the large financial institutions who wrote these mortgages. But that is a whole other topic. Because of Capitalism and greed, which are really the same thing, you have companies taking advantage of the popularity of “being green” and making up crap to make a profit. That is bullshit! But at the same time, if we have to deal with some of that in order to get a larger portion of the corporate world to actually do right by the environment, then I’ll live with this alternative for the time being. While I’d prefer mandatory, government instituted reduction, reusing, and recycling, seeing where we came from in the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s, at least some of the world’s population is finally getting the picture.
I probably came across as pretentious and self-righteous to some people, but this is what I believe and how I live my life, to reduce my footprint on the Earth. Do I look down on people who don’t make an effort? I’m not going to lie…yes! I work for the Government and we have been mandated to reduce paper by going digital, and we have recycling containers we are supposed to use for plastics, aluminum, and paper. Many people in my office will print out 100+ page documents, single-sided, so they can review it. The printer defaults to single-sided, but if you take the 10 seconds to change the settings to double-sided, you are at least reducing the waste in paper by half…although they should be reviewing the electronic copy. I actually print out less than 20 pages a year and either double-side things that have to be printed formally or, better yet, I use the second side of paper that was discarded by the lame fucktards in here and set the printer to manual paper and walk to the printer and insert the clear side of my own sheet of paper for the print job. In my particular building, no person is further than 15 feet from the recycling bins, yet half of the people in here throw their bottles, cans, and paper into their waste basket, which is tossed in the garbage dumpster by the cleaning crew. To me, this is just being a lazy, self-indulgent fucktard. Most of these fucktards are fat and could use the exercise for fuck’s sake. It makes me sick.
Over the past year I have been conducting experiments with my car to figure out ways to significantly reduce my emissions and gas consumption. I am not financially in a place to buy a full electric, or at least a hybrid to bridge the gap, but I do drive a manual transmission car that averages over 30 mph. Last Spring I came up with the idea of shutting the engine off at stop lights and in traffic conditions when my car was idle for at least a few seconds. Since I started this, the average mph for my car has gone up by over 3 mph. In addition, I have already saved 10x more money than it would cost me to replace both the battery and the starter should they fail due to their over use starting the car so many times.
So where am I going with all of this? Well, I believe everyone should make an effort, but I no longer push my ideals of what that effort should be on people. I still like to share my efforts in hopes someone else might institute them as well or, even better, come up with a superior alternative and share it with me.
I am an environmentalist. Have been and always will be one. I am proud to call myself one. But everybody else has to make their own decisions. My only responsibility is to raise my kids with the understanding of how they individually impact the planet and what they can do to reduce it. Hopefully they will make decisions later in life that will continue, and maybe expand, my efforts. They are the future, and I want them to have one.
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I have seen nutritionalist passing along bullshit to patients. Mike and some other lady putting away vegetables was saying shit to me, people are stupid :laugh:
They don't knock, they just try and enter.
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The way to make people more green in the true sense of the word not these fads is through their pocket books. Tax credits for recycling, conservation and such. Oil being so expensive is doing wonders for my business which is retrofitting older homes with cellulose insulation a real green product. Not one of these green in name only things
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People are lazy, selfish fucks, so if there is any effort to “being green” the rest of us can fuck off.
fixed, and QFT. :plus:
fucking excellent post, trig. :plus: i haven't got kids, and it incenses me to see people who do have kids being completely profligate, selfish, inconsiderate, or simply - and i suspect this is the main reason, which sickens me - just thoughtless.
the main cause of bullshit green is the consumer religion prevalent in the world today. we shouldn't be buying better, we should be buying LESS. so few people stop to think whether or not they actually need something. a new mobile every six months? why the fuck does anyone need a new phone every six months? ditto with most consumer goods, especially technology.
i've hesitated before responding to this thread, dawg, beacuse i've so much to say, and most of it makes me so depressed and angry, and i'm still a bit ill, so i haven't the energy. :(
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The way to make people more green in the true sense of the word not these fads is through their pocket books. Tax credits for recycling, conservation and such. Oil being so expensive is doing wonders for my business which is retrofitting older homes with cellulose insulation a real green product. Not one of these green in name only things
sad, but true. see above.
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Trigger11,
You are to be commended for being so conscious of environmental concerns at such a young age. It's practically unheard of!
My interest began as a fairly young person, also. Trying to understand horticulture, which has always been an obsession, led me to discover environmental processes of which most people are unaware. Honestly, though, it is only in the past ten years or so have I begun to do more than simply garden responsibly.
Thanks for posting your thoughts. An excellent contribution!
We could all learn from your example, too.
My biggest frustration pertaining to this issue is that, as Parts and Ozy have touched upon, even seemingly intelligent adults have no clue whether they are being smart with nature or not.
I may have already posted about this elsewhere, but I had a bit of a falling out with my sister-in-law over her jumping on the Green bandwagon without thinking through what she was doing. She essentially filled up two semi-trailer sized dumpsters with her renovation garbage, without even recycling any of it. The worst part was that the two year old carpet and the five year old siding were still in great shape. She just wanted to Buy Green, but then she filled two dumpsters headed for the landfill!!
The laughable part was that she threw all that recyclable waste out and bought products made from recycled sources.
This shit has got to stop.
(AGAIN, my favorite smiley!!)
:hair:
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exactly. :thumbup:
and :plus: for starting the discussion.
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exactly. :thumbup:
and :plus: for starting the discussion.
Ya know, even so-called, "uncivilised" American Indians had a better grasp of this issue, three or four hundred years ago, than most people today.
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funny how we call the industrialised world "civilised", and tribal/indigenous peoples "savages" or "developing", isn't it?
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funny how we call the industrialised world "civilised", and tribal/indigenous peoples "savages" or "developing", isn't it?
... and in our smugness, refer to them as primitive, Stone Age proto-colonies.
:wanker:
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exactly. :thumbup:
and :plus: for starting the discussion.
Ya know, even so-called, "uncivilised" American Indians had a better grasp of this issue, three or four hundred years ago, than most people today.
When I was young I was inspired by much of what I learned about "Native Americans." By the same token I was completely disillusioned by the religious and corporate cultures in America.
Two of my favorite books are:
"The Wisdom Of The Native Americans" ebdited by Kent Nerburn
and
"Touch The Earth" by T.C. McLuhan
"Touch The Earth" was the inspiration for one of my favorite songs "Close To The Fires" by The Samples.
"Close To The Fires" by The Samples
The blue skies are turning brown
And trees fall without a sound
Jets crashing through the sky
The big sun is burning high
The oceans are turning black
Tuna nets are dolphin traps
Oil spills near a garbage barge
It's dumping needles and hospital jars
Mmmmmmmmmmmm
Mmmmmmmmmmmm
But close to the fires, and under a trance
The Indians sang and said with a dance
Take what you need and leave the rest
Take what you need and leave it alone
The landscape is full of holes
For private business or personal goals
Nevada's testing the nuclear sin
Designing wars that no one can win
The karma debts are out of control
They're bathing me inside my soul
Beauty pageants with glamorous furs
Can you believe what they once were?
Mmmmmmmmmmmm
Mmmmmmmmmmmm
But close to the fires, and under a trance
The Indians sang, and said with their dance
To take what you need and leave the rest
To take what you need and leave it alone
Leave it alone…
Leave it alone…
Leave it alone…
Leave it alone…
Leave it alone…
The blue skies are turning brown
The blue skies are turning brown
Our blue skies are turning brown
Our blue skies are turning brown
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funny how we call the industrialised world "civilised", and tribal/indigenous peoples "savages" or "developing", isn't it?
... and in our smugness, refer to them as primitive, Stone Age proto-colonies.
:wanker:
:indeed:
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Trigger11,
You are to be commended for being so conscious of environmental concerns at such a young age. It's practically unheard of!
My interest began as a fairly young person, also. Trying to understand horticulture, which has always been an obsession, led me to discover environmental processes of which most people are unaware. Honestly, though, it is only in the past ten years or so have I begun to do more than simply garden responsibly.
Thanks for posting your thoughts. An excellent contribution!
We could all learn from your example, too.
My biggest frustration pertaining to this issue is that, as Parts and Ozy have touched upon, even seemingly intelligent adults have no clue whether they are being smart with nature or not.
I may have already posted about this elsewhere, but I had a bit of a falling out with my sister-in-law over her jumping on the Green bandwagon without thinking through what she was doing. She essentially filled up two semi-trailer sized dumpsters with her renovation garbage, without even recycling any of it. The worst part was that the two year old carpet and the five year old siding were still in great shape. She just wanted to Buy Green, but then she filled two dumpsters headed for the landfill!!
The laughable part was that she threw all that recyclable waste out and bought products made from recycled sources.
This shit has got to stop.
(AGAIN, my favorite smiley!!)
:hair:
I see this all the time just south of where I live is called the Gold Coast I see so much waste in the name of being green or just change it makes me sick. My skylight in my house came form one of these places if I didn't take it is was destined for the dumpster it was only a year old and cost originally over $1000. Two years ago on worked on a house that was beautiful all hand done woodwork by one of the best trim carpenters in town the people sold it and torn it down recycling almost nothing. The new peoples idea of going green was foam insulation for heat then they put mahogany and teek decks on it
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Insanity!
Pyraxis made a really good point too about how so much of this type of issue is shoved down peoples' throat once something newsworthy happens, that most people react by tuning it out or becoming numb to the cause.
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One of the things I would like to start is a recycling company that goes into these places before demo and takes out what would be worth it to be used again there is a need for it in my area but the funding is the problem. There is a company that recycles appliances from these houses but they only get to a fraction of them. Also some people see it as a stigma to receive such things and feel they deserve new even though the used ones are of superior quality. I do my best with the flea market and such but have run into road blocks myself in trying to donate wheel chairs that where in fine condition but nobody wanted them as they got "free" ones fom the government or insurance so why should they take ones I wanted to give the so scrap yard they went
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I know that there are companies that specialize in selling parts of homes demolished carefully. Floorboards, stairways, old beams, etc. I saw recently that there was even a lumber industry that hunted and salvaged logs that sank in the Great Lakes 100+ years ago. Even a company that mines old logs from trees that fell into old swamps in New Zealand 50,000 years ago. The trees are already dead, but, well preserved and very workable.
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That would would be a dream good for me but you need money to break into it i
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Sadly, the world runs on money, which is nothing but an artificial measure of value.
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I have w watt meter in would be interesting to find how much these things draw
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What I want to know is to what extent being green is of benefit to our species. We've evolved to want our own survival. If being green means artificially checking our expansion in order to make way for competing species, then its proponents will always be fighting a losing battle. But if being green means shaping an environment where we will be better off long term, then I think we will drift naturally towards that path.
We are an interesting experiment because of our front-brain thinking. We are capable of planning for the future to a degree to which other species likely are not. I don't know whether we'll implode, transcend, or simply keep growing at a steady rate. But all this furor over the issue is a symptom of our natural advantage (intelligence).
I also wonder, as always, about how long we will foul our cage before chewing through the bars and getting out into the rest of the galaxy.
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What advantage? The only reason we are having this discussion is because the whales who telepathically control humankind are pissed off that we got their bath water too hot.
;^P
I think what ever survival benefits we could possibly create for other species will benefit us in similar measure and the balance will remain in our favor.
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I know that there are companies that specialize in selling parts of homes demolished carefully. Floorboards, stairways, old beams, etc. I saw recently that there was even a lumber industry that hunted and salvaged logs that sank in the Great Lakes 100+ years ago. Even a company that mines old logs from trees that fell into old swamps in New Zealand 50,000 years ago. The trees are already dead, but, well preserved and very workable.
Not many around here though as for now what doesn't go in the dumpsters the carpenters divide up
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What advantage? The only reason we are having this discussion is because the whales who telepathically control humankind are pissed off that we got their bath water too hot.
;^P
:lol: You got the message too, huh?
I think what ever survival benefits we could possibly create for other species will benefit us in similar measure and the balance will remain in our favor.
How come?
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What advantage? The only reason we are having this discussion is because the whales who telepathically control humankind are pissed off that we got their bath water too hot.
;^P
:lol: You got the message too, huh?
Don't you mean the dolphins?
I also wonder, as always, about how long we will foul our cage before chewing through the bars and getting out into the rest of the galaxy.
Quite a long time I think!
Personally I put the welfare of the planet and the rest of its inhabitants over that of my own species. If the rest of the planet can only survive with the extinction of humans, then that is the only logical and ethical outcome to our existence.
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Personally I put the welfare of the planet and the rest of its inhabitants over that of my own species.
Which ones? All of them? Got any preferences?
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Like it or not, humanity is the dominant species of this ecosystem, as such I would expect the ecosystem to change to suit our needs...This would be merely be a symptom.
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Personally I put the welfare of the planet and the rest of its inhabitants over that of my own species.
Which ones? All of them? Got any preferences?
Given the choice between saving an animal and some random human, I'd save the animal. I am only responsible for myself and my children. I'm not saying that the species should sacrifice itself for the common good, but I do believe most humans are a waste of matter and energy. If the small percentage of humans that are not could somehow change things for the better, then maybe there would be some hope. In the long run, I think the Universe, if not the planet, will dispose of this species long before it reaches anything near what the dinosaurs achieved in longevity. It's like were in a Sarlacc Pit, slowing digesting and unable to figure out a way to escape. Boba Fett was able to escape his Sarlacc Pit, but he had a jetpack.
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Given the choice between saving an animal and some random human, I'd save the animal.
What about insects? Plants? Fungi? Bacteria?
What is it about humans that makes them ethically inferior to animals?
It's like were in a Sarlacc Pit, slowing digesting and unable to figure out a way to escape. Boba Fett was able to escape his Sarlacc Pit, but he had a jetpack.
Mostly agreed. But that's why I think we badly need to get off our butts and invent jetpacks.
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Given the choice between saving an animal and some random human, I'd save the animal.
What about insects? Plants? Fungi? Bacteria?
What is it about humans that makes them ethically inferior to animals?
I suppose I should say “life forms” to be more accurate. Don’t get me wrong. For one, I am not a vegetarian, although I have great respect for those who can do that, like my sister. I believe that in the natural order of things life must consume life in order to live. Whether it’s plants or animals, I don’t think it is immoral to consume other life. I do think that the way humans treat their meals prior to eating them is immoral, but that is another debate. Secondly, I don’t think it is immoral to say…kill bacteria or a virus that would otherwise kill you. Self-defense is not immoral and quite natural. I do not kill insects with the exception of mosquitoes on my children, since we have issues here with them caring potentially deadly diseases, and having the exterminator treat our home for termites. I did have a hard time with that one morally, but I also felt the need to protect the welfare of my family. It kind of haunts me though. I actually was researching natural predators to termites prior to calling the exterminator.
As to the second question, it really is more that I don’t consider humans to be superior life forms. They like to think they are, but very few life forms destroy the environment in which they need to survive. That’s just a generalization. Specifically, there is “W”, Cheney, Hitler, etc. as some of the finest examples of the species. What it boils down to is that each human is responsible for themselves and their offspring. Many of the predicaments that befall other life forms on this planet are caused by humans. At least the “unnatural” ones. This makes it much easier to care about the other life forms when faced with such a choice.
I would like to clarify another thing, as I was a bit too general in my original post. My issues with humans as a whole is with the “adults” and not their presumably as yet uncorrupted offspring. I have done many things with kids over the years. From being a Big Brother to helping out in the Special Olympics. Kids tend to flock to me at birthday parties and I play with them rather than trying to socialize with the adults, which is extremely uncomfortable and difficult to do. I am, of course, an Aspie. All that being said, I would most likely save a random child if faced with that decision. I’m not that heartless.
Then again, I have twice jumped into burning cars to pull random adult humans out, so maybe there is a natural instinct to do so. But had say a dog been in either vehicle, I would have gone for the dog first. Unless, of course, the human was blocking the way so getting them out was a prerequisite to saving the dog.
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exactly. :thumbup:
and :plus: for starting the discussion.
Ya know, even so-called, "uncivilised" American Indians had a better grasp of this issue, three or four hundred years ago, than most people today.
They weren't uncivilised.
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funny how we call the industrialised world "civilised", and tribal/indigenous peoples "savages" or "developing", isn't it?
It's not funny at all. I think it's fucking awful.
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funny how we call the industrialised world "civilised", and tribal/indigenous peoples "savages" or "developing", isn't it?
It's not funny at all. I think it's fucking awful.
i was being un-aspie by using irony, dear heart. :-*
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funny how we call the industrialised world "civilised", and tribal/indigenous peoples "savages" or "developing", isn't it?
It's not funny at all. I think it's fucking awful.
i was being un-aspie by using irony, dear heart. :-*
You are being more truthful than ironic! :plus:
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that too, sadly. :(
:-*
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exactly. :thumbup:
and :plus: for starting the discussion.
Ya know, even so-called, "uncivilised" American Indians had a better grasp of this issue, three or four hundred years ago, than most people today.
They weren't uncivilised.
Of course not! I have a great deal of respect and a deep feeling of loss at what untold wonders "white-eyes" may have destroyed as he blanketed this unspoiled land with his greed.
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exactly. :thumbup:
and :plus: for starting the discussion.
Ya know, even so-called, "uncivilised" American Indians had a better grasp of this issue, three or four hundred years ago, than most people today.
They weren't uncivilised.
Of course not! I have a great deal of respect and a deep feeling of loss at what untold wonders "white-eyes" may have destroyed as he blanketed this unspoiled land with his greed.
:plus:
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Like it or not, humanity is the dominant species of this ecosystem, as such I would expect the ecosystem to change to suit our needs...This would be merely be a symptom.
Doesn't always work like that. A species can also sometimes become a pest, and threaten the destruction of the entire ecology it affects by it's overpopulation and over consumption of resources. Humanity is basically one of the most dangerous ones of them all, as it's influence is global.
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:asthing:
I think I did my share of AS Things here... :-\
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I am still trying to figure out why somebody tossed a new and intact toilet seat and cover 10 feet into the woods. It was never used and was clean. So I brought it to the dump store and left it there. ??? I'v seen some strange things left by the roadside, but, that has to be the strangest yet.
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:asthing:
I think I did my share of AS Things here... :-\
Same here. I started out pissed as hell again about the meaningless, impalpable shit the present shortsighted system is teaching in schools and ended up aggravating my sorrow for the endless misery intentionally perpetrated upon the American natives.
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The bottom line is, if we all did our parts with intelligence and full knowledge. We wouldn't be having this discussion!
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:asthing:
I think I did my share of AS Things here... :-\
Same here. I started out pissed as hell again about the meaningless, impalpable shit the present shortsighted system is teaching in schools and ended up aggravating my sorrow for the endless misery intentionally perpetrated upon the American natives.
Hm. Does that mean global thinking wasn't a good idea?
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i know it's practically trite now, but that's when the phrase "think global; act local" actually means something.
or just two words: responsibility and justice.
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exactly. :thumbup:
and :plus: for starting the discussion.
Ya know, even so-called, "uncivilised" American Indians had a better grasp of this issue, three or four hundred years ago, than most people today.
They weren't uncivilised.
I wouldn't count many cultures back then as having been civilised. Most American Indian tribes had a nasty custom of torturing their prisoners to death, and the white settlers of the era were happily importing slaves, burning witches and murdering each other in cock-swinging contests. The world in general was a brutal and cruel place at that time.
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i know it's practically trite now, but that's when the phrase "think global; act local" actually means something.
or just two words: responsibility and justice.
But if thinking global only leads to regrets over things which couldn't have been changed, how do you know what local moves to make?
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i know it's practically trite now, but that's when the phrase "think global; act local" actually means something.
or just two words: responsibility and justice.
But if thinking global only leads to regrets over things which couldn't have been changed, how do you know what local moves to make?
move your thinking forward onto things which can be changed, and start from there.
no point trying to save the dodo, so don't waste your energy on it.
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The dodo? You've lost me.
My problem is with the environmentalist types who seem to believe that zero impact is the best impact, that it's not even possible to affect life or the planet for the better, and humans as a whole would be better off exterminated. That's no ideal to move towards.
There's got to be a way of living responsibly without stagnating or disappearing. We eat, things die. We grow, things are choked out of the space we grew into. That's true of both today's first world nations, and primitive societies. The only big difference is rate of change. The native americans and other indigenous folk lived without destroying ecosystems, but they didn't develop enough new ways of using the resources around them to prevent them from getting conquered. Who's to say the same wouldn't happen to humanity as a whole if we set arbitrary species-wide limits on our growth?
There's got to be a way of separating waste from progress. Maybe our current population explosion is unwise, considering the immediately available space we have to work with. Maybe we aren't sophisticated enough as a species to be able to take seriously that kind of advance warning. Maybe if we did take it seriously, the self-limits we developed would be the same kind of mistake as the explorers who introduced European species to Pacific islands, thinking they were improving quality of life but really fucking up the natural balance - an idea developed from house-of-cards intellectual theory without enough reality-checking.
Maybe I'm making sense to nobody but myself. :P
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^ Some well said points.
There is no easy answer, but I strongly believe in trying to make a difference. Reducing our negative impact to the environment is not a bad thing.
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:agreed:
pyraxis, the dodo is already extinct, so there's no point wasting effort on trying to achieve the impossible and work to get it back (although i dare say there's some GM/cloning work going on to do it, somewhere).
make sense?
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Sure it does, I just wasn't sure where it came from, cause I didn't say anything about wasting effort on getting the impossible back.
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Sure it does, I just wasn't sure where it came from, cause I didn't say anything about wasting effort on getting the impossible back.
ah right - i was addressing your comment, "But if thinking global only leads to regrets over things which couldn't have been changed..." i probably misinterpreted what you meant.
soz.
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That was me responding to DD's bowing out of an interesting conversation - trying to get it back on its original track.
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but... but... you mean it wasn't addressed to ME?!!
blimey - i must have AS or something...
;)
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That was me responding to DD's bowing out of an interesting conversation - trying to get it back on its original track.
My start to this thread was flawed, but the course of the topic is worth keeping!
Uhm, sometimes a bow enlarges a field of battle or expands the scope of a discussion. It's like an acknowledgment, at times, but not necessarily a concession. Let's move forward.
What have we done today?
Think globally, act locally is a nice, quaint reference to the past , but more importantly, let's Think long-term, but Act right NOW!
There is so much more I need to say here. Can we just work this thread through with the other ones and maybe even vent our GREEN colons when we need to, right in this thread, inspiring others to talk, maybe? I would like to see every single one of us make some kind of comment - even a bitchy one.
Only one person so far has posted in a childish manner. That person may YET come to terms with this topic, if able.
I am proud to say that my "city-sponsored and collected" recycle bin was compressed, tight as fuck, and full to the rim, while my junk-out bin was only one fourth (maybe less) full today.
(edited typos - buttloads! Sorry.)
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Real Green, cellulose insulation retrofit in older homes not the glamorous stuff from TV
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q131/parts67/006-13.jpg)
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q131/parts67/001-23.jpg)
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go, parts! :thumbup:
:plus:
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Yay, Parts!
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What some see as green and can help the planet. Is only as green if they believe it in the end.
How they influence others to believe as they see it may not be right or wrong it is how they see it in the end.
It is up to You to decide how to teach children and others You know what is right in Your eyes.
If You know better then You should teach them that think what is right in their eyes.
Green is green if You look at the grass that grows between Your feet. Nothing more than that in the end.
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“Walking In Your Footsteps” by The Police
Fifty million years ago
You walked upon the planet so,
Lord of all that you could see
Just a little bit like me
Walking in your footsteps
Hey Mr. Dinosaur
You really couldn't ask for more
You were god's favourite creature
But you didn't have a future
Walking in your footsteps
Hey mighty brontosaurus
Don't you have a lesson for us
You thought your rule would always last
There were no lessons in your past
You were built three stories high
They say you would not hurt a fly
If we explode the atom bomb
Would they say that we were dumb?
Walking in your footsteps
Fifty million years ago
They walked upon the planet so
They live in a museum
It's the only place you'll see ‘em.
Walking in your footsteps....
They say the meek shall inherit the earth....
Walking in your footsteps....
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They say the meek shall inherit the earth....
While the rest of us move on to the stars.
Sorry, trite, but that saying gets on my nerves.
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I believe the meek already have inherited the Earth. :P
My coworkers are bitching about the new recycling policy that went into affect 1 October 2008 at our installation. Now, our personal "garbage" cans are considered recycling containers. All mixed paper, plastic, glass, and metal are to be put into them and the cleaning crews will empty them into the larger bin located in some secret location every week. Anything else, like tissues, tape, candy wrappers, etc. are to be thrown away in the large, bathroom garbage cans along with the usual paper towels found in there. Management is going to track how much time is wasted by employees walking to the bathroom to throw away non-recyclable materials. For fuck's sake! How hard is it to get up once, when you actually go to the pisser, to take the stuff then? My garbage can hasn't been emptied by the cleaning crew in months, 'cause I was already recycling everything at home, so I don't produce any garbage during the day. Now these numnuts will have very little garbage, since all of that paper they waste will have to be recycled, along with the water bottles, instead of just thrown out. Damn…people are lazy!
I HATE THIS PLACE!!!!!!!!
:hair:
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I hate this place too :(
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"Den alles, was entsteht,
ist wert, daß es zugrunde geht."
Goethe; Faust
8)