Sweden joins the US

[TheoK]

I think I have mentioned it here, before, but my grandfather also killed a man who was leading a group of KKK onto his farm ("Cut the head off and the rest of the snake won't rattle for long.") to burn out a family of black farmers who lived in their barn. It was a bit closer to the Old West in those days, though. He was never even arrested.

The law enforcement back in those days were allowed to use their common sense, unlike today. In Europe I very much doubt that that would ever had happened, though. In Europe deadly force is a state monopoly. It's not about the lives of some crooks but to keep that monopoly that people in Europe get prosecuted for killing in self-defense.

The thing that was odd was that, as a blacksmith, he knew most of the riders by their horses, despite the robes, by recognizing his own shodding work. He began calling them all by name and telling them that they would not be allowed to come any closer to the barn with their torches. Some of them began to get antsy, being recognized, so the leader pressed on. My grandfather had to shoot, finally, but he was clearly defending humans on his own property against injury.

Sounds a bit aspie to recognize the horses that way.

[odeon]

That would be impossible in Sweden or most other European countries for that matter. The man would probably have gotten 10 years for something like that. Or maybe even lifetime, since he killed two people, despite the fact that they were burglars...

Untrue, and you provided the proof yourself. Remember the father that was acquitted, a couple of posts back in this same thread? Funny how you will use real-life cases only when it suits you, but not otherwise.

There are plenty of cases to prove you wrong, as a matter of fact, both here and in other European countries.

[odeon]

He wasn't a hitman in the American sense, but he sometimes collected "debts" for other criminals and was known for brutally beating people up for this purpose. He was earlier convicted for manslaughter.

Christer Pettersson


I prefer not to reveal my nationality.

/shrugs

Fairly obvious that you are a Swede, or someone obsessed with what is happening here. I think the former is correct, based on the evidence I have.

[Callaway]

That would be impossible in Sweden or most other European countries for that matter. The man would probably have gotten 10 years for something like that. Or maybe even lifetime, since he killed two people, despite the fact that they were burglars...

Untrue, and you provided the proof yourself. Remember the father that was acquitted, a couple of posts back in this same thread? Funny how you will use real-life cases only when it suits you, but not otherwise.

I think that the two cases are different.  The case in Sweden involved a father protecting himself and his son against an armed gang who was threatening their safety and possibly their lives, while the Texas man was protecting his neighbor's property from (presumably) unarmed burglars who he shot in the back.

[odeon]

Isn't the argument similar, though? You are attempting to protect yourself and your family, in both cases. Isn't that the usual defense line from people who've shot burglars in the US?

[TheoK]

That would be impossible in Sweden or most other European countries for that matter. The man would probably have gotten 10 years for something like that. Or maybe even lifetime, since he killed two people, despite the fact that they were burglars...

Untrue, and you provided the proof yourself. Remember the father that was acquitted, a couple of posts back in this same thread? Funny how you will use real-life cases only when it suits you, but not otherwise.

There are plenty of cases to prove you wrong, as a matter of fact, both here and in other European countries.

It would be impossible to get away with killing two burglars, like in the Texan case, not to get away with killing one or two people who attempted to kill you.

And there were a lot of people, especially socialists, that were "upset" that the father was acquitted, though I think the majority of the Swedish people, if not the Swedish media and politicians, thought that the acquittance was right.

[Callaway]

Isn't the argument similar, though? You are attempting to protect yourself and your family, in both cases. Isn't that the usual defense line from people who've shot burglars in the US?

Yes, it's similar since in the Texas case, the burglars were on Joe Horn's property when he shot them so he could have been considered to have been defending himself, but he did shoot them in the back, which would in ordinary circumstances argue against self-defense.  I doubt that I could shoot unarmed burglars in the back where I live and get away with it, unless I could argue that they posed an imminent danger to a family member.

[TheoK]

Isn't the argument similar, though? You are attempting to protect yourself and your family, in both cases. Isn't that the usual defense line from people who've shot burglars in the US?

Yes, it's similar since in the Texas case, the burglars were on Joe Horn's property when he shot them so he could have been considered to have been defending himself, but he did shoot them in the back, which would in ordinary circumstances argue against self-defense.  I doubt that I could shoot unarmed burglars in the back where I live and get away with it, unless I could argue that they posed an imminent danger to a family member.

If you can't get away with it in Colorado, you certainly can't get away with it in any European country, maybe except for Greece or some other Balkan country.

[TheoK]

Back on topic; ironically enough many FRA "agents" were "outed" on the internet already a week before the unconstitutional law was passed. They didn't like their own medicin, to say the least: FRA-agenters hemliga identiteter röjda "Secret identities of FRA agents revealed". The article was published on June 19, the day after the law was passed, though their identities were published on a Swedish "underground" site already on June 11. 

[odeon]

Isn't the argument similar, though? You are attempting to protect yourself and your family, in both cases. Isn't that the usual defense line from people who've shot burglars in the US?

Yes, it's similar since in the Texas case, the burglars were on Joe Horn's property when he shot them so he could have been considered to have been defending himself, but he did shoot them in the back, which would in ordinary circumstances argue against self-defense.  I doubt that I could shoot unarmed burglars in the back where I live and get away with it, unless I could argue that they posed an imminent danger to a family member.

Which is why that acquitted father proves my point, while proving TheoK wrong.

[odeon]

That would be impossible in Sweden or most other European countries for that matter. The man would probably have gotten 10 years for something like that. Or maybe even lifetime, since he killed two people, despite the fact that they were burglars...

Untrue, and you provided the proof yourself. Remember the father that was acquitted, a couple of posts back in this same thread? Funny how you will use real-life cases only when it suits you, but not otherwise.

There are plenty of cases to prove you wrong, as a matter of fact, both here and in other European countries.

It would be impossible to get away with killing two burglars, like in the Texan case, not to get away with killing one or two people who attempted to kill you.

And unless they were a real threat to your life, it should be impossible to get away with murder, yes.

And there were a lot of people, especially socialists, that were "upset" that the father was acquitted, though I think the majority of the Swedish people, if not the Swedish media and politicians, thought that the acquittance was right.

From what I've seen, the media was split on this issue--several newspapers considered the acquittal as the only sensible option.

How would you know if socialists were upset, rather than the conservatives, btw? Have you seen a poll to this effect?

[odeon]

Back on topic; ironically enough many FRA "agents" were "outed" on the internet already a week before the unconstitutional law was passed. They didn't like their own medicin, to say the least: FRA-agenters hemliga identiteter röjda "Secret identities of FRA agents revealed". The article was published on June 19, the day after the law was passed, though their identities were published on a Swedish "underground" site already on June 11. 

Yeah, I saw that, and thought it was hilarious.

[Pyraxis]

And unless they were a real threat to your life, it should be impossible to get away with murder, yes.

What constitutes a "real threat"? Being on the spectrum and all that, I find it a little freaky to think of what skills it takes to separate a joking threat from a real threat. And that so much would depend on that split-second ability.

If someone ever seriously threatened my life, I might well play it so safe - not believing them because people have played enough tricks on me to get me to take them seriously when they're not - that it would be too late to stop them.

[TheoK]

From what I've seen, the media was split on this issue--several newspapers considered the acquittal as the only sensible option.

How would you know if socialists were upset, rather than the conservatives, btw? Have you seen a poll to this effect?

I haven't seen a poll, but on different political forums you can see that most people who were upset and called it "getting away with murder" were social democrats or left partists. They are usually pro the monopoly of the State to use violence, when it not comes to things like those on this picture, of course.

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[odeon]

And unless they were a real threat to your life, it should be impossible to get away with murder, yes.

What constitutes a "real threat"? Being on the spectrum and all that, I find it a little freaky to think of what skills it takes to separate a joking threat from a real threat. And that so much would depend on that split-second ability.

Agreed. And I don't have a good answer. Let's hope none of us ever has to find out.

If someone ever seriously threatened my life, I might well play it so safe - not believing them because people have played enough tricks on me to get me to take them seriously when they're not - that it would be too late to stop them.

I've been robbed once. The guy flashed his knife but never brought it out. I felt sufficiently threatened, however, so he got my money.

The idiot fled with the tram and I was next to a taxicab station, so he was easy to catch.