Social Niceties et al - WAS: Odeon, provide proof please.

[odeon]

I agree. And self-moderation is not a bad thing; someone else forcing it is.

Or a system. Which is what happens when we walk out of that front door.

No, that's not true. What happens is that we don't kill each other.

[Lucifer]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

[odeon]

Yes, I agree. And politeness is excellent survival strategy.

[Lucifer]

Yes, I agree. And politeness is excellent survival strategy.

fuck off, cunt!

[Christopher McCandless]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Formality requires that you know the rules, remember most Aspies struggle to learn them, especially without a nice book on them. Of course even if you know the rules, as soon as you make a mistake with them (which is bound to happen) you then lack the intuition to deal with it, and the sheer judgementalism that those rules are built on mean that chances are someone will just assume you are an undesirable and that would be it. Having options with what to say, and what not to say I prefer myself...

[odeon]

Yes, I agree. And politeness is excellent survival strategy.

fuck off, cunt!

I love it when you talk dirty to me.

[Lucifer]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Formality requires that you know the rules, remember most Aspies struggle to learn them, especially without a nice book on them. Of course even if you know the rules, as soon as you make a mistake with them (which is bound to happen) you then lack the intuition to deal with it, and the sheer judgementalism that those rules are built on mean that chances are someone will just assume you are an undesirable and that would be it. Having options with what to say, and what not to say I prefer myself...

fair comment.

i do wonder whether you'd still say that if you'd experienced a different way of working, though. 

[Lucifer]

Yes, I agree. And politeness is excellent survival strategy.

fuck off, cunt!

I love it when you talk dirty to me.

ohhhhhhhh, i know. 

[Christopher McCandless]

it always amazes me when aspies moan about rules in social interation.  surely, the whole point is that it's easier to interact when there are clear rules as to how to - all you have to do islearn them.

i know i find it much more difficult these days, because social interaction is so much more informal.  when i was young, if you met someone, they said, "how do you do?", and you replied with the same, and then advanced bunnies was "pleased to meet you."  and that was it.  nowadays, apart from saying their mother's a cunt, more or less anything goes, and that's so much harder.

i like formality - it's easy.

Formality requires that you know the rules, remember most Aspies struggle to learn them, especially without a nice book on them. Of course even if you know the rules, as soon as you make a mistake with them (which is bound to happen) you then lack the intuition to deal with it, and the sheer judgementalism that those rules are built on mean that chances are someone will just assume you are an undesirable and that would be it. Having options with what to say, and what not to say I prefer myself...

fair comment.

i do wonder whether you'd still say that if you'd experienced a different way of working, though. 

It might be different I guess, though I am one of those who likes fighting rules and abusing loopholes not playing by them. I doubt much could change that.

[ozymandias]

I don't think he wants moderation, and I'v known GA from several forums, just clarity for his own mind.  Then again, I'v been wrong before!   

Come on, what else do you call someone trying to get us all to mind our P's and Q's. Or was that Arses and Cunts...

Someone with a differing opinion?

His opinion is a reasonable one, and does not equal moderation. He simply wants me to be more polite, but doesn't want to enforce it, which is what moderation really is about.

To me it does, albeit an attempt at persuading us to carry out self-moderation. We do way too much of that irl already...

Politeness is just another nasty hand me down from NT society, as far as I am concerned. Just my take on it.

Your entitled to that opinion and your entitled to think I am wrong.  But, IRL, politeness is not censorship or grovelling or sycophancy, it's common sense.  So unless your contemplating a career and lifestyle far removed from all contact with other human beings, politeness or diplomacy is a necessary survival skill.  Thats my opinion.

As for self moderation, it's how I behave, at least half the time anyway, and believe.  It's not imposed on me except by me on myself.  GA is free to accept or reject my opinion, as you, Lucifer, odeon, calandale, etc, are free to do as well.  It's not going to change how I operate or conduct myself here or in real life.   And thats my take on it!   

[Christopher McCandless]

I don't think he wants moderation, and I'v known GA from several forums, just clarity for his own mind.  Then again, I'v been wrong before!   

Come on, what else do you call someone trying to get us all to mind our P's and Q's. Or was that Arses and Cunts...

Someone with a differing opinion?

His opinion is a reasonable one, and does not equal moderation. He simply wants me to be more polite, but doesn't want to enforce it, which is what moderation really is about.

To me it does, albeit an attempt at persuading us to carry out self-moderation. We do way too much of that irl already...

Politeness is just another nasty hand me down from NT society, as far as I am concerned. Just my take on it.

Your entitled to that opinion and your entitled to think I am wrong.  But, IRL, politeness is not censorship or grovelling or sycophancy, it's common sense.  So unless your contemplating a career and lifestyle far removed from all contact with other human beings, politeness or diplomacy is a necessary survival skill.  Thats my opinion.

As for self moderation, it's how I behave, at least half the time anyway, and believe.  It's not imposed on me except by me on myself.  GA is free to accept or reject my opinion, as you, Lucifer, odeon, calandale, etc, are free to do as well.  It's not going to change how I operate or conduct myself here or in real life.   And thats my take on it!   

Common sense is defined by the society we are in, and as you rightly point out we have to play the game for now. It doesnt mean we should like the game or system, and really we should all be striving to change it. Obviously I play the game myself, but I almost despise myself for playing it. What scares me is in trying hard to conform, one can lose their identity and sense of who they are.

As for imposition, it is imposed on you in the sense you are free to choose not to play along, but the consequences for not playing are pretty disasterous. Not what I would call a free choice myself.

[DirtDawg]

[Callaway]

 

[ozymandias]

I don't think he wants moderation, and I'v known GA from several forums, just clarity for his own mind.  Then again, I'v been wrong before!   

Come on, what else do you call someone trying to get us all to mind our P's and Q's. Or was that Arses and Cunts...

Someone with a differing opinion?

His opinion is a reasonable one, and does not equal moderation. He simply wants me to be more polite, but doesn't want to enforce it, which is what moderation really is about.

To me it does, albeit an attempt at persuading us to carry out self-moderation. We do way too much of that irl already...

Politeness is just another nasty hand me down from NT society, as far as I am concerned. Just my take on it.

Your entitled to that opinion and your entitled to think I am wrong.  But, IRL, politeness is not censorship or grovelling or sycophancy, it's common sense.  So unless your contemplating a career and lifestyle far removed from all contact with other human beings, politeness or diplomacy is a necessary survival skill.  Thats my opinion.

As for self moderation, it's how I behave, at least half the time anyway, and believe.  It's not imposed on me except by me on myself.  GA is free to accept or reject my opinion, as you, Lucifer, odeon, calandale, etc, are free to do as well.  It's not going to change how I operate or conduct myself here or in real life.   And thats my take on it!   

Common sense is defined by the society we are in, and as you rightly point out we have to play the game for now. It doesnt mean we should like the game or system, and really we should all be striving to change it. Obviously I play the game myself, but I almost despise myself for playing it. What scares me is in trying hard to conform, one can lose their identity and sense of who they are.

As for imposition, it is imposed on you in the sense you are free to choose not to play along, but the consequences for not playing are pretty disasterous. Not what I would call a free choice myself.

I never said I liked it, but, then again, I have a great deal of latitude in my present life to do or not do.  BUT, one can conform in a borderline way, yet, not sacrifice ones identity and I certainly haven't lost the sense of who I am.  Nor is my daughter losing the sense of who she is.     My own sense of self is NOT in seeing the world in black and white with minimal grey, but, I see the world in huge swaths of grey with minimal black and white on the extreme borders.  One can play the game/along without losing ones identity, the trick is in learning the limitations within which each of us works well.  I relish the challenge of balancing conformity with my own individuality and refusal to knuckle under to the game.  And let me tell you, very few games are more full of BS conformity then the medical field.  Of course academia is the only field I consider on a par with that concept.  My dearest friend is a retired prof. and some of the stories he told me would curl anyones hair.  I'm sure Lucifer could vouch for that!

The bottom line is, if I wanted to live a totally individual and free life, I could head out to some remote area of the Maine woods and hide and build a life for myself totally alone and self sufficient.  BUT, I like my wine, a decent tenderloin, fresh produce and those things I couldn't manufacture for myself, in short I can't live without contact with other people.  However brief and exasperating.  It's not necessarily an "NT" imposition, it's a "human" imposition, as in the cost we have to pay for being human.  So unless you want to and can do, a move out to Australia's "Dead Heart".  Find an oasis and live there cut off from all contact with the rest of society,  your going to have to find that "balance" point as well.  It's never about surrendering your individuality, it's about, keeping your individuality, and yet being able to   , in a fashion that both satisfies and helps keep your sanity.  I'm still working on that!  

[ozymandias]