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Author Topic: Help me to prove the validity of tarot  (Read 1698 times)

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Offline Peter

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Re: Help me to prove the validity of tarot
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2008, 03:30:16 PM »
Not being an expert in tarot divination, I would appreciate any input from those who know more about it than I do.  I've been reading about tarot, and based on what I've learned, I've devised an experiment which could potentially validate tarot as a predictive method, but I'd like feedback on the experiment so that adjustments can be made if I've misunderstood something.

Using a Rider-Waite tarot deck, I propose to take a large number of readings of myself using the five card spread.  Each time the cards are dealt, each card and it's position in the spread will be noted.  While taking these readings, I'll focus on the question "What is my current situation?", unless someone suggests a better question.  The deck will be well shuffled by myself between readings.

My theory is that if tarot is valid, there will be a statistically significant difference between the cards dealt for each position in the spread and what would be expected to have occurred by chance.  Since there are 78 cards in the deck, by my calculations each card would be expected by chance to appear 6.41 times per 100 readings and to appear in a particular position in the spread 1.28 times per 100 readings.  If tarot is purely a chance phenomenon, the results should increasingly approach these two figures the more times the cards are dealt.  As an experimental control, my computer will pick cards using a random number generator.
You'd prolly have to do a hell of a lot of retrials to be able to get somehting you can properly work with (as in, more than just the first 100), but it would be an interesting exercise to say the least.  Even if it didn't statistcially seem to be random, though, you woudln't necessariuly prove anything- it could be chalked up to improper shuffling/irregular cards, etc.  If you do it, I'd rather like to know what conlcusions you draw.

I think it'll be a rather boring experiment; kind of like dropping a rock hundreds of times to see if it flies up into the sky.  :P

My first stumbling block is my lack of a tarot card deck.  I'm thinking I could make a set by cutting up some card and writing on each one which tarot card it represents.
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14:10 - Moarskrillex42: She said something about knowing why I wanted to move to Glasgow when she came in. She plopped down on my bed and told me to go ahead and open it for her.

14:11 - Peter5930: So, she thought I was your lover and that I was sending you a box full of sex toys, and that you wanted to move to Glasgow to be with me?

Offline Callaway

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Re: Help me to prove the validity of tarot
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2008, 04:00:14 PM »
Not being an expert in tarot divination, I would appreciate any input from those who know more about it than I do.  I've been reading about tarot, and based on what I've learned, I've devised an experiment which could potentially validate tarot as a predictive method, but I'd like feedback on the experiment so that adjustments can be made if I've misunderstood something.

Using a Rider-Waite tarot deck, I propose to take a large number of readings of myself using the five card spread.  Each time the cards are dealt, each card and it's position in the spread will be noted.  While taking these readings, I'll focus on the question "What is my current situation?", unless someone suggests a better question.  The deck will be well shuffled by myself between readings.

My theory is that if tarot is valid, there will be a statistically significant difference between the cards dealt for each position in the spread and what would be expected to have occurred by chance.  Since there are 78 cards in the deck, by my calculations each card would be expected by chance to appear 6.41 times per 100 readings and to appear in a particular position in the spread 1.28 times per 100 readings.  If tarot is purely a chance phenomenon, the results should increasingly approach these two figures the more times the cards are dealt.  As an experimental control, my computer will pick cards using a random number generator.
You'd prolly have to do a hell of a lot of retrials to be able to get somehting you can properly work with (as in, more than just the first 100), but it would be an interesting exercise to say the least.  Even if it didn't statistcially seem to be random, though, you woudln't necessariuly prove anything- it could be chalked up to improper shuffling/irregular cards, etc.  If you do it, I'd rather like to know what conlcusions you draw.

I think it'll be a rather boring experiment; kind of like dropping a rock hundreds of times to see if it flies up into the sky.  :P

My first stumbling block is my lack of a tarot card deck.  I'm thinking I could make a set by cutting up some card and writing on each one which tarot card it represents.

There are tarot websites you could use instead of buying a deck.  I asked it for a reading for you, using your question:

http://www.facade.com/tarot/personal/?UID=585039&Date=5%2F2%2F2008&Name=Anonymous&Query=What+is+my+current+situation%3F&Deck=rider_waite&Reading=fourfold



Offline Peter

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Re: Help me to prove the validity of tarot
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2008, 06:38:35 PM »
Not being an expert in tarot divination, I would appreciate any input from those who know more about it than I do.  I've been reading about tarot, and based on what I've learned, I've devised an experiment which could potentially validate tarot as a predictive method, but I'd like feedback on the experiment so that adjustments can be made if I've misunderstood something.

Using a Rider-Waite tarot deck, I propose to take a large number of readings of myself using the five card spread.  Each time the cards are dealt, each card and it's position in the spread will be noted.  While taking these readings, I'll focus on the question "What is my current situation?", unless someone suggests a better question.  The deck will be well shuffled by myself between readings.

My theory is that if tarot is valid, there will be a statistically significant difference between the cards dealt for each position in the spread and what would be expected to have occurred by chance.  Since there are 78 cards in the deck, by my calculations each card would be expected by chance to appear 6.41 times per 100 readings and to appear in a particular position in the spread 1.28 times per 100 readings.  If tarot is purely a chance phenomenon, the results should increasingly approach these two figures the more times the cards are dealt.  As an experimental control, my computer will pick cards using a random number generator.
You'd prolly have to do a hell of a lot of retrials to be able to get somehting you can properly work with (as in, more than just the first 100), but it would be an interesting exercise to say the least.  Even if it didn't statistcially seem to be random, though, you woudln't necessariuly prove anything- it could be chalked up to improper shuffling/irregular cards, etc.  If you do it, I'd rather like to know what conlcusions you draw.

I think it'll be a rather boring experiment; kind of like dropping a rock hundreds of times to see if it flies up into the sky.  :P

My first stumbling block is my lack of a tarot card deck.  I'm thinking I could make a set by cutting up some card and writing on each one which tarot card it represents.

There are tarot websites you could use instead of buying a deck.  I asked it for a reading for you, using your question:

http://www.facade.com/tarot/personal/?UID=585039&Date=5%2F2%2F2008&Name=Anonymous&Query=What+is+my+current+situation%3F&Deck=rider_waite&Reading=fourfold




Thanks, but I really need a RL deck to do the experiment properly.  I just wrote my computer control this evening.  The results are given in the following format:

[Name of the card, the number of times the card was drawn, [the number of times card was drawn in first, second, third, fourth, fifth position]

The program made 100,000 readings using the five-card spread.  Each time a card was drawn for a spread, it's position in the spread was noted.  From this, the program later calculated how many times the card had been drawn for a spread and how many times it had been drawn for each position in a spread.  I wasn't thinking about anything in particular while it ran the first time.

Code: [Select]
0 - The Fool                  6574 [1283, 1342, 1321, 1320, 1308]
I - The Magician or Juggler   6351 [1309, 1266, 1228, 1288, 1260]
II - The High Priestess       6518 [1280, 1346, 1288, 1247, 1357]
III - The Empress             6540 [1286, 1343, 1332, 1326, 1253]
IV - The Emperor              6599 [1351, 1292, 1364, 1302, 1290]
V - The Hierophant or Pope    6399 [1273, 1295, 1270, 1288, 1273]
VI - The Lovers               6566 [1348, 1329, 1306, 1365, 1218]
VII - The Chariot             6389 [1274, 1283, 1246, 1268, 1318]
VIII - Strength               6450 [1268, 1311, 1269, 1282, 1320]
IX - The Hermit               6454 [1297, 1276, 1247, 1321, 1313]
X - Wheel of Fortune          6503 [1285, 1307, 1325, 1285, 1301]
XI - Justice                  6484 [1290, 1263, 1277, 1366, 1288]
XIII - Death                  6423 [1342, 1266, 1258, 1296, 1261]
XIV - Temperance              6434 [1303, 1333, 1271, 1283, 1244]
XV - The Devil                6460 [1328, 1259, 1290, 1285, 1298]
XVI - The Tower               6508 [1328, 1246, 1296, 1334, 1304]
XVII - The Star               6504 [1325, 1284, 1335, 1274, 1286]
XVIII - The Moon              6496 [1343, 1269, 1321, 1294, 1269]
XIX - The Sun                 6566 [1310, 1333, 1297, 1287, 1339]
XX - Judgement                6600 [1359, 1321, 1334, 1276, 1310]
XXI - The World               6480 [1313, 1324, 1268, 1293, 1282]
Ace of Wands                  6442 [1330, 1266, 1254, 1269, 1323]
Two of Wands                  6525 [1273, 1313, 1310, 1289, 1340]
Three of Wands                6368 [1274, 1287, 1228, 1284, 1295]
Four of Wands                 6486 [1307, 1329, 1277, 1299, 1274]
Five of Wands                 6512 [1283, 1332, 1325, 1257, 1315]
Six of Wands                  6491 [1336, 1281, 1299, 1289, 1286]
Seven of Wands                6584 [1270, 1327, 1318, 1319, 1350]
Eight of Wands                6562 [1290, 1282, 1403, 1257, 1330]
Nine of Wands                 6512 [1277, 1342, 1347, 1268, 1278]
Ten of Wands                  6393 [1271, 1257, 1296, 1285, 1284]
Page of Wands                 6533 [1307, 1265, 1301, 1286, 1374]
Knight of Wands               6374 [1266, 1225, 1297, 1283, 1303]
Queen of Wands                6513 [1295, 1276, 1339, 1304, 1299]
King of Wands                 6464 [1276, 1308, 1314, 1266, 1300]
Ace of Pentacles              6462 [1286, 1277, 1345, 1272, 1282]
Two of Pentacles              6513 [1296, 1217, 1338, 1375, 1287]
Three of Pentacles            6432 [1332, 1267, 1298, 1260, 1275]
Four of Pentacles             6431 [1249, 1328, 1292, 1244, 1318]
Five of Pentacles             6511 [1283, 1329, 1259, 1318, 1322]
Six of Pentacles              6508 [1302, 1303, 1298, 1286, 1319]
Seven of Pentacles            6507 [1259, 1329, 1286, 1348, 1285]
Eight of Pentacles            6431 [1248, 1336, 1233, 1252, 1362]
Nine of Pentacles             6513 [1266, 1333, 1304, 1330, 1280]
Ten of Pentacles              6536 [1251, 1371, 1318, 1298, 1298]
Page of Pentacles             6423 [1259, 1335, 1276, 1292, 1261]
Knight of Pentacles           6456 [1287, 1298, 1315, 1253, 1303]
Queen of Pentacles            6596 [1354, 1351, 1284, 1276, 1331]
King of Pentacles             6487 [1249, 1291, 1300, 1342, 1305]
Ace of Cups                   6527 [1291, 1283, 1344, 1304, 1305]
Two of Cups                   6382 [1340, 1253, 1280, 1237, 1272]
Three of Cups                 6441 [1333, 1240, 1277, 1296, 1295]
Four of Cups                  6482 [1297, 1248, 1341, 1295, 1301]
Five of Cups                  6572 [1330, 1313, 1306, 1362, 1261]
Six of Cups                   6640 [1311, 1401, 1335, 1308, 1285]
Seven of Cups                 6528 [1316, 1299, 1310, 1308, 1295]
Eight of Cups                 6497 [1321, 1292, 1285, 1278, 1321]
Nine of Cups                  6569 [1373, 1246, 1299, 1345, 1306]
Ten of Cups                   6625 [1318, 1324, 1307, 1308, 1368]
Page of Cups                  6437 [1254, 1330, 1337, 1280, 1236]
Knight of Cups                6596 [1349, 1297, 1366, 1309, 1275]
Queen of Cups                 6585 [1323, 1305, 1295, 1339, 1323]
King of Cups                  6422 [1285, 1287, 1271, 1296, 1283]
Ace of Swords                 6652 [1334, 1316, 1304, 1394, 1304]
Two of Swords                 6595 [1320, 1326, 1325, 1326, 1298]
Three of Swords               6452 [1252, 1313, 1258, 1318, 1311]
Four of Swords                6445 [1249, 1257, 1310, 1283, 1346]
Five of Swords                6452 [1273, 1265, 1344, 1322, 1248]
Six of Swords                 6458 [1268, 1314, 1238, 1354, 1284]
Seven of Swords               6464 [1286, 1273, 1292, 1327, 1286]
Eight of Swords               6452 [1263, 1327, 1273, 1327, 1262]
Nine of Swords                6448 [1307, 1266, 1287, 1272, 1316]
Ten of Swords                 6612 [1304, 1325, 1361, 1321, 1301]
Page of Swords                6463 [1318, 1347, 1248, 1232, 1318]
Knight of Swords              6444 [1283, 1273, 1294, 1317, 1277]
Queen of Swords               6496 [1320, 1314, 1248, 1291, 1323]
King of Swords                6401 [1311, 1223, 1268, 1270, 1329]

There was very little variance in the results, and although I haven't done a formal analysis, it seems quite random.  I ran it a second time, again making 100,000 spreads, while I focussed on thinking about the question 'What is my current situation?'.  These are the results from that run:

Code: [Select]
0 - The Fool                  6459 [1246, 1315, 1282, 1352, 1264]
I - The Magician or Juggler   6478 [1339, 1272, 1312, 1251, 1304]
II - The High Priestess       6533 [1287, 1380, 1324, 1277, 1265]
III - The Empress             6656 [1372, 1309, 1350, 1310, 1315]
IV - The Emperor              6376 [1280, 1257, 1266, 1313, 1260]
V - The Hierophant or Pope    6501 [1294, 1293, 1294, 1295, 1325]
VI - The Lovers               6404 [1258, 1237, 1299, 1303, 1307]
VII - The Chariot             6441 [1329, 1302, 1249, 1291, 1270]
VIII - Strength               6480 [1304, 1294, 1335, 1252, 1295]
IX - The Hermit               6436 [1269, 1322, 1261, 1272, 1312]
X - Wheel of Fortune          6532 [1313, 1337, 1270, 1273, 1339]
XI - Justice                  6486 [1310, 1323, 1276, 1263, 1314]
XIII - Death                  6521 [1287, 1259, 1327, 1314, 1334]
XIV - Temperance              6578 [1328, 1289, 1284, 1364, 1313]
XV - The Devil                6511 [1256, 1291, 1361, 1292, 1311]
XVI - The Tower               6573 [1282, 1327, 1266, 1326, 1372]
XVII - The Star               6316 [1209, 1264, 1285, 1324, 1234]
XVIII - The Moon              6485 [1281, 1277, 1276, 1351, 1300]
XIX - The Sun                 6525 [1270, 1313, 1333, 1287, 1322]
XX - Judgement                6418 [1258, 1296, 1314, 1262, 1288]
XXI - The World               6475 [1279, 1314, 1347, 1282, 1253]
Ace of Wands                  6621 [1349, 1286, 1372, 1337, 1277]
Two of Wands                  6436 [1267, 1292, 1314, 1273, 1290]
Three of Wands                6477 [1312, 1261, 1301, 1304, 1299]
Four of Wands                 6482 [1295, 1334, 1304, 1324, 1225]
Five of Wands                 6622 [1336, 1319, 1275, 1335, 1357]
Six of Wands                  6422 [1325, 1287, 1265, 1289, 1256]
Seven of Wands                6545 [1247, 1338, 1349, 1293, 1318]
Eight of Wands                6423 [1330, 1249, 1287, 1252, 1305]
Nine of Wands                 6382 [1257, 1263, 1264, 1280, 1318]
Ten of Wands                  6550 [1288, 1318, 1317, 1293, 1334]
Page of Wands                 6469 [1325, 1285, 1243, 1252, 1364]
Knight of Wands               6512 [1296, 1210, 1313, 1386, 1307]
Queen of Wands                6509 [1296, 1357, 1337, 1268, 1251]
King of Wands                 6450 [1256, 1327, 1317, 1288, 1262]
Ace of Pentacles              6504 [1322, 1282, 1295, 1297, 1308]
Two of Pentacles              6443 [1254, 1267, 1295, 1344, 1283]
Three of Pentacles            6503 [1328, 1191, 1296, 1368, 1320]
Four of Pentacles             6522 [1335, 1282, 1296, 1324, 1285]
Five of Pentacles             6528 [1328, 1284, 1305, 1311, 1300]
Six of Pentacles              6495 [1258, 1343, 1293, 1326, 1275]
Seven of Pentacles            6564 [1347, 1372, 1266, 1302, 1277]
Eight of Pentacles            6536 [1355, 1283, 1310, 1288, 1300]
Nine of Pentacles             6605 [1317, 1349, 1308, 1308, 1323]
Ten of Pentacles              6511 [1226, 1401, 1287, 1294, 1303]
Page of Pentacles             6601 [1353, 1332, 1292, 1293, 1331]
Knight of Pentacles           6461 [1310, 1310, 1248, 1276, 1317]
Queen of Pentacles            6403 [1246, 1295, 1291, 1272, 1299]
King of Pentacles             6523 [1327, 1268, 1328, 1321, 1279]
Ace of Cups                   6489 [1324, 1283, 1296, 1299, 1287]
Two of Cups                   6508 [1315, 1280, 1245, 1345, 1323]
Three of Cups                 6554 [1266, 1323, 1373, 1333, 1259]
Four of Cups                  6566 [1264, 1377, 1309, 1291, 1325]
Five of Cups                  6602 [1259, 1281, 1353, 1405, 1304]
Six of Cups                   6449 [1367, 1221, 1283, 1284, 1294]
Seven of Cups                 6556 [1274, 1326, 1350, 1273, 1333]
Eight of Cups                 6530 [1292, 1323, 1306, 1322, 1287]
Nine of Cups                  6507 [1284, 1332, 1330, 1240, 1321]
Ten of Cups                   6320 [1312, 1275, 1218, 1257, 1258]
Page of Cups                  6527 [1320, 1273, 1272, 1321, 1341]
Knight of Cups                6594 [1272, 1350, 1322, 1385, 1265]
Queen of Cups                 6480 [1245, 1356, 1286, 1278, 1315]
King of Cups                  6452 [1275, 1295, 1280, 1249, 1353]
Ace of Swords                 6464 [1331, 1329, 1232, 1297, 1275]
Two of Swords                 6402 [1318, 1283, 1261, 1313, 1227]
Three of Swords               6462 [1291, 1277, 1270, 1331, 1293]
Four of Swords                6447 [1299, 1264, 1257, 1297, 1330]
Five of Swords                6423 [1311, 1285, 1255, 1296, 1276]
Six of Swords                 6560 [1266, 1345, 1376, 1270, 1303]
Seven of Swords               6479 [1322, 1322, 1298, 1239, 1298]
Eight of Swords               6542 [1427, 1235, 1303, 1300, 1277]
Nine of Swords                6345 [1283, 1275, 1320, 1248, 1219]
Ten of Swords                 6406 [1287, 1233, 1293, 1291, 1302]
Page of Swords                6530 [1340, 1251, 1359, 1245, 1335]
Knight of Swords              6545 [1338, 1352, 1293, 1267, 1295]
Queen of Swords               6559 [1330, 1311, 1269, 1321, 1328]
King of Swords                6419 [1252, 1287, 1312, 1251, 1317]

This is the code I used:

Code: [Select]
import random

cards =[['0 - The Fool                 ',[]],
['I - The Magician or Juggler  ',[]],
['II - The High Priestess      ',[]],
['III - The Empress            ',[]],
['IV - The Emperor             ',[]],
['V - The Hierophant or Pope   ',[]],
['VI - The Lovers              ',[]],
['VII - The Chariot            ',[]],
['VIII - Strength              ',[]],
['IX - The Hermit              ',[]],
['X - Wheel of Fortune         ',[]],
['XI - Justice                 ',[]],
['XIII - Death                 ',[]],
['XIV - Temperance             ',[]],
['XV - The Devil               ',[]],
['XVI - The Tower              ',[]],
['XVII - The Star              ',[]],
['XVIII - The Moon             ',[]],
['XIX - The Sun                ',[]],
['XX - Judgement               ',[]],
['XXI - The World              ',[]],
['Ace of Wands                 ',[]],
['Two of Wands                 ',[]],
['Three of Wands               ',[]],
['Four of Wands                ',[]],
['Five of Wands                ',[]],
['Six of Wands                 ',[]],
['Seven of Wands               ',[]],
['Eight of Wands               ',[]],
['Nine of Wands                ',[]],
['Ten of Wands                 ',[]],
['Page of Wands                ',[]],
['Knight of Wands              ',[]],
['Queen of Wands               ',[]],
['King of Wands                ',[]],
['Ace of Pentacles             ',[]],
['Two of Pentacles             ',[]],
['Three of Pentacles           ',[]],
['Four of Pentacles            ',[]],
['Five of Pentacles            ',[]],
['Six of Pentacles             ',[]],
['Seven of Pentacles           ',[]],
['Eight of Pentacles           ',[]],
['Nine of Pentacles            ',[]],
['Ten of Pentacles             ',[]],
['Page of Pentacles            ',[]],
['Knight of Pentacles          ',[]],
['Queen of Pentacles           ',[]],
['King of Pentacles            ',[]],
['Ace of Cups                  ',[]],
['Two of Cups                  ',[]],
['Three of Cups                ',[]],
['Four of Cups                 ',[]],
['Five of Cups                 ',[]],
['Six of Cups                  ',[]],
['Seven of Cups                ',[]],
['Eight of Cups                ',[]],
['Nine of Cups                 ',[]],
['Ten of Cups                  ',[]],
['Page of Cups                 ',[]],
['Knight of Cups               ',[]],
['Queen of Cups                ',[]],
['King of Cups                 ',[]],
['Ace of Swords                ',[]],
['Two of Swords                ',[]],
['Three of Swords              ',[]],
['Four of Swords               ',[]],
['Five of Swords               ',[]],
['Six of Swords                ',[]],
['Seven of Swords              ',[]],
['Eight of Swords              ',[]],
['Nine of Swords               ',[]],
['Ten of Swords                ',[]],
['Page of Swords               ',[]],
['Knight of Swords             ',[]],
['Queen of Swords              ',[]],
['King of Swords               ',[]]]

for i in range(100000):
    pick1 = random.randrange(0,77)
    cards[pick1][1] = cards[pick1][1] + [1]
    pick2 = random.randrange(0,77)
    while pick2 == pick1:
        pick2 = random.randrange(0,77)
    cards[pick2][1] = cards[pick2][1] + [2]
    pick3 = random.randrange(0,77)
    while pick3 == pick2 or pick3 == pick1:
        pick3 = random.randrange(0,77)
    cards[pick3][1] = cards[pick3][1] + [3]
    pick4 = random.randrange(0,77)
    while pick4 == pick3 or pick4 == pick2 or pick4 == pick1:
        pick4 = random.randrange(0,77)
    cards[pick4][1] = cards[pick4][1] + [4]
    pick5 = random.randrange(0,77)
    while pick5 == pick4 or pick5 == pick3 or pick5 == pick2 or pick5 ==pick1:
        pick5 = random.randrange(0,77)
    cards[pick5][1] = cards[pick5][1] + [5]

one=0
two=0
three=0
four=0
five=0

count = 0
for i in cards:
    one = i[1].count(1)
    two = i[1].count(2)
    three = i[1].count(3)
    four = i[1].count(4)
    five = i[1].count(5)
    cards[count] = [i[0],i[1],[one,two,three,four,five]]
    count=count+1
   
for i in cards:
    print i[0], len(i[1]), i[2]
Quote
14:10 - Moarskrillex42: She said something about knowing why I wanted to move to Glasgow when she came in. She plopped down on my bed and told me to go ahead and open it for her.

14:11 - Peter5930: So, she thought I was your lover and that I was sending you a box full of sex toys, and that you wanted to move to Glasgow to be with me?